Lidia Jean Kott talks to journalist Elizabeth Lopatto about what it was like to cover the trial, the similarities it shared with Elizabeth Holmes’ trial, and what this all says about millennials, fraud, and the future of the tech industry. This conversation was recorded on November 13. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's all over. Sam Bankman-Fried was found guilty on all seven counts. But what now? Michael Lewis, Lidia Jean Kott, and Judging Sam’s legal expert, O’Melveny defense attorney Rebecca Mermelstein, reflect on the outcome and look ahead to sentencing, SBF's other legal troubles, and the fate of the cooperating witnesses. This conversation was recorded on November 7. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The jury, after about 4 and a half hours of deliberation, has delivered its verdict – guilty on all seven counts. Lidia Jean Kott was in the courtroom when it happened. Her conversation with financial reporter Jacob Goldstein was recorded on November 2. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

CORRECTION: In an earlier version of this episode, our guest incorrectly stated that in the case of a hung jury, a defendant cannot be retried without risking double jeopardy. This is incorrect. If the jury hangs, then the defendant can be retried. We have edited the episode to remove this and apologize for the error. It’s nearly time for the jury to begin their deliberations. They’ll file into a backroom at the courthouse, and SBF’s fate will be in their hands. But what goes on behind those doors? How will the jury get to its verdict? Trial consultant Ellen Leggett returns to the show to talk through the process with Lidia Jean Kott. This conversation was recorded on October 27 and updated on November 1. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We're finally in the home stretch. Today the prosecution finished their cross examination of Sam Bankman-Fried, the defense followed up with a redirect, and then both sides rested. It’s Michael’s last day at court, but Lidia Jean will attend until the bitter end. They sit down to talk through the trial day’s events. This conversation was recorded on October 31. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sam Bankman-Fried finishes direct and faces withering cross-examination by the government’s chief prosecutor, Danielle Sassoon. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean Kott share notes during lunch, then Lidia Jean sits down with Pushkin financial reporter and host Jacob Goldstein to talk through the day’s events. This conversation was recorded on October 30. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The day is finally upon us: Sam Bankman-Fried takes the stand. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean meet up after a long day in court and discuss everything that went down. This conversation was recorded on October 27. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Michael Lewis finishes his book tour and joins Lidia Jean Kott in court. His timing, as usual, is impeccable. The government rests its case. And then, everyone thinks Sam Bankman-Fried will take the stand. Instead, in a surprise twist, Judge Kaplan sends the jury home. LJ and Michael meet up on the courthouse steps to talk through the day’s events. This conversation was recorded on October 26. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

After a few days off, the trial resumes tomorrow, October 26. The prosecution has said they will likely be ready to rest their case by midday. Michael Lewis, Lidia Jean Kott and Rebecca Mermelstein, a partner at the law firm O’Melveny & Myers, sit down to analyze the prosecution’s case and talk about what might happen next, including the possibility of Sam Bankman-Fried taking the stand. This conversation was recorded on October 23. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Voices of the victims of Sam Bankman-Fried’s alleged crimes have been few and far between during the prosecution’s presentation of its case. On today’s show, Lidia Jean Kott sits down with Jake Thacker, a tech worker from Portland, Oregon who borrowed money to bet big on FTX, only to be left holding the bag. He says he’s now bankrupt and unsure whether he’ll be able to keep his home. This conversation was recorded on October 23. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Another week come and gone, and like everything SBF, it wasn’t without a healthy dose of drama. Lidia Jean Kott catches Michael Lewis and Jacob Goldstein up on all that has gone down. This conversation was recorded on the evening of October 19. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today on the show, Michael talks with Matt Levine, business columnist at Bloomberg News and author of the newsletter “Money Stuff.” Matt knows more about how crypto markets work than just about anyone else. And also about how they don’t work. Like when there’s a more than eight billion dollar hole nobody seems to have been able to fill. Matt and Michael talk trial, SBF and FTX. This conversation was recorded at 2pm on October 17. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It was supposed to be a quiet Monday in court, but it turned out to be everything but. Nishad Singh, a former top executive at FTX, and a close personal friend of the Bankman-Fried family took the stand. Lidia Jean calls Michael Lewis from court during her lunch break to get his take on Singh, and updates us with the latest as the SBF trial enters its third week. This conversation was recorded on the evening of October 16. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Week 2 of Sam Bankman-Fried’s trial is in the books. The prosecution has called witnesses, including star witness Caroline Ellison, and the defense has cross-examined. There have been dramatic, emotional moments, a secret recording and laughter in the overflow rooms. Lidia Jean has been in court, and Michael has been on book tour. In this episode they catch each other up. Michael is curious how the characters he got to know while reporting his book have come off in court. This conversation was recorded on October 14. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Caroline Ellison, former co-CEO of Alameda Research and Sam Bankman-Fried’s ex-girlfriend, spent 3 days on the stand this week. Ellison recently pled guilty to financial fraud, and is cooperating with the prosecution. In this episode Lidia Jean Kott discusses Caroline’s testimony with Jacob Goldstein, financial reporter and author of the book Money. This conversation was recorded in the evening on October 12. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Caroline Ellison, former co-CEO of Alameda Research and Sam Bankman-Fried’s ex-girlfriend, takes the stand and has a lot to say. Ellison recently pled guilty to financial fraud, and is cooperating with the prosecution. In this episode Lidia Jean Kott discusses what came up on Day 1 of Caroline’s testimony with Jacob Goldstein, financial reporter and author of the book Money. This conversation was recorded in the evening on October 10. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Week 1 of Sam Bankman-Fried’s trial is in the books. The jury is seated, opening statements have been given, and witnesses are taking the stand. Lidia Jean has been in court, and Michael has been on book tour. In this episode they catch each other up. Michael wants to know what it’s like inside the courtroom, and Lidia Jean is curious about what new information Michael is learning. This conversation was recorded on October 7. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

SBF’s trial has been on for three days, and a lot has happened: jury selection, opening statements, and the first witnesses. Pushkin co-founder Jacob Weisberg sits down with reporter Lidia Jean Kott and Rebecca Mermelstein, a partner at the law firm O’Melveny and Myers, to talk about what’s happened in court so far. This conversation was recorded on October 5 at 3 pm ET. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The trial of former FTX CEO Sam Bankman-Fried got underway yesterday in the Southern District of New York. First order of business? Empanelling a jury. Reporter Lidia Jean Kott was there. To get more insight into how jury selection works, Lidia Jean sat down with trial consultant Ellen Leggett. Their episode was recorded on October 2 at 6pm ET, with an update after court on October 3. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com To listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sam Bankman-Fried's trial starts today in the formidable Southern District of New York, with Judge Lewis A. Kaplan presiding. If convicted, the former multi-billionaire and CEO of crypto exchange FTX could spend the rest of his life behind bars. In this episode, Michael talks with court reporter and producer Lidia Jean Kott and former Southern District of New York prosecutor Rebecca Mermelstein, now a defense attorney with O'Melveny and Myers, about the charges against Sam and what we might expect as the trial gets underway. Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com This conversation was recorded on September 26th. To listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.