Deerns Spain, a team of around 60 engineers, has been on a transformation journey since March 2020. Inspired by K2K Emocionando, they now work without managers which means that everyone is “creating our company all the time”. I talked to Miquel Castellvi (General Coordinator), Blanca Capdevila (People & Culture) and Pau Riera (Commitment Coordinator) who shared stories about how they changed their organisational structure, their self-managing salary process, giving feedback and dealing with conflicts, and the role of the Values and Culture team. Resources: Deerns Spain website Article in El Pais about Deerns Spain and other ‘teal’ organisations in Spain Miquel and Blanca on the Autogestión con Pancho Mora podcast (in Spanish) Related Leadermorphosis podcast episodes: Ep. 55 with Frederic Laloux Ep. 53 with Jabi and Dunia from K2K Emocionando Ep. 78 with Sofia and Luís from Mindera

I'm thrilled to have adrienne maree brown on the podcast, someone who 'grows ideas in public' through her writing, her podcasts and her music. Ideas like Emergent Strategy, Pleasure Activism, Radical Imagination and Transformative Justice. We talk about what it means to be in right relationship with change, how to be comfortable with the uncomfortable, sustainable relationships, Pleasure Activism, three thoughts about leadership, what adrienne would do if she was mayor of a large city, and finally some of her favourite practices at the moment. Resources: adrienne’s website where you can find links to her writing and podcasts Audre Lorde’s essay ‘Uses of the Erotic: The Erotic as Power’ Maurice Mitchell’s article ‘Building Resilient Organizations: Toward Joy and Durable Power During a Crisis’ The Embodiment institute Black Organizing for Leadership and Dignity The Chani app Related podcast episodes: Ep. 37 with Miki Kashtan

What can the realm of self-management and new ways of working learn from the realm of polyamory, Relationship Anarchy and open relationships? And how can practices in self-organising work teams help us improve our personal relationships? Ted Rau is the co-founder of Sociocracy for All and author of books like ‘Who Decides Who Decides?’ and ‘Many Voices One Song’. In his personal life, he has been in monogamous relationships and, for the last seven years, in open relationships. We explore the parallels across personal and professional relationships, like what it means to ‘be in choice’, consent decision-making as a mindset more than a process, holding multiple roles, and agreement-making. Resources: The link to buy Ted’s books The HBR article I mention, ‘The Little Things that Affect Our Work Relationships’ Alanna Irving’s blog about Relationship Retrospectives Miki Kashtan’s blog about flow, decision-making and conflict Relationship Anarchy Smorgasbord (wouldn’t it be fun to have an equivalent smorgasbord for our work relationships?) Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Ep. 27 with Ted Rau Ep. 35 with Alanna Irving

Douglas Rauch was thinking of selling his construction business until he read Reinventing Organisations by Frederic Laloux. After that, Aquadec went on a transformation journey to becoming a self-managing company. Douglas and his daughter Jessica share the ups and downs of this process over the last five years, including why their initial approach was a spectacular failure, why it was an inner shift that ended up making the difference, and something called “S**t Day.” Resources: Jessica and Douglas' talk at Teal Around the World 2023 Jessica and Douglas on The Better Work Australia Podcast The Better Work Australia Podcast website Aquadec’s website

Kimberly Loh works in the worlds of conflict resolution, coaching, embodiment and mindfulness. She is also the co-author of ‘Compassionate Conversations: How to Speak and Listen from the Heart.’ We talk about learning to be aware of patterns we have when it comes to engaging with conflict, and Kim shares some ground rules for having ‘Compassionate Conversations’, as well as some really useful self-reflective practices to help us be more conscious of how we show up in conversations, especially ‘difficult’ ones. We also cover topics like power, hierarchies, and why human beings rarely learn how to 'do' conflict well. Resources: Kim Loh’s website How to order the book ‘Compassionate Conversations’ A link to Kim’s course, ‘Heart Connections: Strategies for Navigating Conflict & Difference’

Since 2014, Sanjay Fernandes and his colleagues at SOLE Colombia have been teaching citizens the principles of a Self-Organised Learning Environment. He is passionate about reimagining learning and tackling issues like inequality, inspired by decades of research by Sugata Mitra which has shown that SOLEs allow children (and people in general) to learn almost anything. To date, more than 450,000 Colombians have participated in SOLEs and Sanjay shares some wonderful stories of how this methodology has reawakened people’s curiosity and sense of being an active citizen. Whether in public libraries, schools or organisations, we talk about the value of asking big questions and searching for the answers together, and the role of the ‘Granny Cloud’ – a network of encouraging non-experts. Resources: Learn more about SOLE Colombia Sugata Mitra’s TED talk Start SOLE website

Bernadette Wesley’s work is all about bridging the world of inner development with the world of being in an organisation together. We talk about Deliberately Developmental Organisations (DDOs); self-organisation and why changing structures is not enough; the Inner Development Goals (IDGs); and three practices that Bernadette has found particularly powerful: Peer Learning Spaces, Immunity to Change Maps, and Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT) Tapping. Bernadette is an Associate Partner with Fraendi, and is the Coordinator for the Inner Development Goals (IDG) Hub in Porto, Portugal, centering on Adult Development in SDG oriented organisations. Resources: An overview of being a Deliberately Developmental Organisation (DDO) Learn more about Peer Learning Spaces Experiential Guide: Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT) Tapping “Organizational Adaptability and Resilience: The Invisible Culture”, an article by Bernadette Wesley Learn more about Fraendi

Jon Alexander is the author of the hugely popular 2022 book ‘Citizens: Why the Key to Fixing Everything is All of Us’. He talks to me about the people he interviewed and the stories he collected which show how it’s possible to go from what he calls a ‘Consumer’ mindset to a ‘Citizen’ mindset – like Taiwan’s innovative approach during the COVID pandemic. We also discuss the Three P’s of Participatory Organisations, what leadership would need to look like in a Citizen Future, and why we should try to create ‘safe uncertainty’. Resources: Jon’s website where you can order the book Citizens Follow Jon on Twitter: @jonjalex The book Jon mentions by Ece Temelkuran, Together: 10 Choices for a Better Now Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Ep. 83 with Imandeep Kaur, featured in the book Citizens Ep. 64 with Bayo Akomolafe

What would it look like to reimagine the systems of a whole city? To really involve citizens in addressing the huge challenges we face today? Imandeep Kaur reflects on what she has learned in the last ten years from being part of an ecosystem of social entrepreneurs in Birmingham who are cultivating ‘radical reimagination’. From TEDx Brum, to Impact Hub Birmingham, to Dark Matter Labs and finally as the director of CIVIC SQUARE, where she has been greatly influenced by Kate Raworth’s work on Doughnut Economics, Immy shares some deep insights and big questions from her journey about systems change and leadership. Resources: CIVIC SQUARE’s website The Doughnut Economics website Blogs and other resources related to Dark Matter Labs’ #BreakingTheRules project More Dark Matter Labs provocations from their Medium blog Indy Johar, one of Immy’s key influences, in a video conversation with Jordan Hall about the need for a new organisational theory and practice Related Leadermorphosis episode: One of my favourite conversations with friend of Immy, Meg Lightheart

Three authors of the book ‘Made Without Managers: One Company’s Journey to New Ways of Working’ join me to talk about what they have learned at Mayden, a cloud based health tech solutions organisation in the UK. Ruth Waterfield (developer and scrum master), Taryn Burden (product owner of Mayden’s new ways of working) and Philippa Kindon (coach) share how Mayden’s ways of working have evolved over the years, including what career progression looks like, the role of directors in a bossless organisation, and what have been their biggest challenges. Resources: Order the book ‘Made Without Managers: One Company’s Journey to New Ways of Working’ from Amazon here Read the blog about the Mayden book here

Erik is an executive advisor on transformation and the future of work, leadership, and collaboration, and the author of ‘Teal Dots in an Orange World.’ We talk about how this 'new ways of working' movement is evolving, and in particular a positive trend that Erik calls 'fragmented organisations' that's happening because it's hard to scale self-managed or 'teal' practices and principles in a uniform way. Erik shares what he has observed, particularly in larger organisations, including challenges like interfacing with the outside world when you are a progressive organisation. Finally, we explore leadership and 'futures literacy' as an important skill. I love Erik's articulate and thoughtful style and I think this was a great sense-making conversation. Resources: Erik’s book, ‘Teal Dots in an Orange World’ The HBR article ‘Managing the whitespace’ Bill Anderson talking about transformation at scale at Roche, on the Brave New Work podcast Related Leadermorphosis episodes: The episode with Peter Koenig about Source The episode with Tom Nixon about Source The books Erik mentioned: ‘Imaginable’ by Jane McGonical ‘Transforming the Future: Anticipation in the 21st Century’ by Riel Miller et al.

For the past year, the Municipality of Slagelse in Denmark has been experimenting with autonomous teams. Of the 8,000 employees, some 25-30 units so far have opted in to learn how to make decisions as a team using key principles of Sociocracy. Mette Aagaard, Head of Development, shares what they have been learning and why she thinks it is the responsibility of the public sector to develop societies, and workplaces, that are fit for humans. Anyone wondering how to introduce self-managing teams in a large public sector organisation, this episode is for you! Resources: The video of Mette talking to Ted Rau at the Global Sociocracy Conference The Leadermorphosis episode with Ted Rau talking about Sociocracy

Lina shares the story of her time at Finnish commercial real estate company Technopolis where she led the transformation of the Lithuania business unit. Inspired by Frederic Laloux's book Reinventing Organisations, she got the mandate from her boss to run her business unit of 20 people in a totally different way, with no managers. She shares the story of what her team learned, the challenges they faced, and the results they achieved. Highlights include some harsh but valuable feedback from her team about how decisions are made; a group learning to handle their own conflicts; and a chief accountant who went above and beyond to help the team exceed a seemingly impossible sales target. Since recording, Lina has teamed up with other progressive leadership practitioners to help organisations in Lithuania transform to self-managing ways of working. Resources: The Leadermorphosis episode with Dunia and Jabi from K2K Emocionando

Sofia and Luís talk about the self-organisation journey at global software engineering company, Mindera. With 900+ employees and counting, they have evolved as a company without managers through experiments guided by questions like: Will this bring more autonomy? Is it human friendly? This has resulted in some remarkable employee-designed processes, like their self-managed salary system, and their unique office space in Porto, Portugal. Sofia, Mindera’s co-founder, and Luís (whose title is ‘Self-Organisation Enthusiast and Learning Geek’) share what they have learned from their journey and how they have developed as individuals themselves. Resources: The Mindera employee handbook Luís’ talk from the Teal Around the World conference Mindera’s website (check out the blogs about why they have no managers, and how their salary process has evolved)

Aaron Dignan, author of Brave New Work and founder of The Ready, is back on the podcast, this time to talk about how his new software startup, Murmur, can help organisations scale new ways of working. We talk about the importance of team agreements and how to keep them alive, plus what Aaron and his colleagues have been learning from their latest explorations in the worlds of self-management, DAOs and their Brave New Work podcast. Resources: Learn more about Murmur: https://www.murmur.com/ Learn more about The Ready, Aaron’s book Brave New Work: https://theready.com/ and you can buy the Tension and Practice cards here Listen to the previous Leadermorphosis episode with Aaron here Listen to the episode of me on Aaron and Rodney’s Brave New Work podcast talking about embracing discomfort and transforming conflicts – on Apple podcast; Spotify

Ria Baeck and J.D. Nasaw. Ria and J.D. are both coaches and facilitators who combine scientific research of trauma with embodied practices of collective intelligence and wisdom. In our conversation, we discuss questions like: what does trauma have to do with new ways of working? How can we be more conscious collaborators? What are examples of embodied practices we can use so that our journey of new ways of working is not only an intellectual one? Ria has thirty years of experience as a therapist, and J.D. is particularly interested in the intersection of somatics, self-management, social justice, and regeneration. Both are associates at Greaterthan for which they have developed a course called Trauma Informed Collaboration. Resources: More information about the Trauma Informed Collaboration course Greaterthan’s website Learn more about Enspiral Learn more about Percolab A beginner’s guide to Polyvagal Theory from Rhythm of Regulation See also the Leadermorphosis episode with Miki Kashtan

Alice Sheldon is the author of ‘Why Weren’t We Taught This at School?’ and the founder of Needs Understanding, an approach for finding creative solutions and building relationships at home and at work. I love how Alice shares practical tools and stories to bring to life some of the principles of Nonviolent Communication. She also coaches me through an example of an organisation where there is a tension between two groups: those who are enthusiastic about self-management and those sceptical about it. A great episode if you want to upgrade your self-awareness and communication skills. Resources: The Needs Understanding website www.needs-understanding.com Alice’s book, ‘Why Weren’t We Taught This at School?’ The needs list PDF we mention (and other useful lists)

Matt Perez realised that his successful career as a boss in a Silicon Valley tech company had made him a worse person and so he co-founded Nearsoft in 2007 to be a company that works for everyone. His recent book, Radical Companies Without Bosses or Employees, takes self-organisation one step further to include co-ownership so that people aren’t dependent on what he calls ‘enlightened monarchs.’ We talk about what he’s been learning, including the development of a distribution mechanism that decentralises ownership and supports egalitarian and equitable wealth sharing based on contribution. Resources: Matt’s book ‘Radical Companies’ Related Leadermorphosis episodes: Listen to the episode with Anabel Montiel to learn more about Nearsoft Listen to the episode with Jabi Salcedo and Dunia Reverter from K2K

Kate Beecroft works on ecosystem and community building at Centrifuge, the decentralised asset financing protocol. She has been involved in Decentralised Autonomous Organisations (DAOs) since 2018 and brings to them her experience of self-managing organisations as the co-founder of Greaterthan and a long-time member of Enspiral. We talk about common critiques of DAOs and Web3, as well as how we could share learning more across the worlds of self-managing organisations, DAOs and cooperatives. For listeners totally new to the world of DAOs and Web3, here are two starting points: This Forbes article: What Are DAOs And Why You Should Pay Attention The Brave New Work podcast episode with Chase Chapman (see also their DAO mini-series) Resources: The paper Kate co-authored, The Dissensus Protocol The episode of the ‘On the Other Side’ podcast we mention Elizabeth M. Renieris’ article ‘Amid the Hype over Web3, Informed Skepticism Is Critical’ Richard D. Bartlett, Stephen Reid and Rufus Pollock on Critical Exploration of Web3 (YouTube video) Enspiral’s website

Swarnalakshmi Ravi is the former national prime minister of India's Inclusive Neighbourhood Children's Parliament. The children’s parliament movement is an example of how simple but effective governance principles and structures can make children’s voices heard and empower them to take collective action on issues that affect their lives. Swarna shares her experiences both as a child participating in these parliaments and now as an adult supporting the development of the Provisional World Children’s Parliament. What can we learn from this movement about inclusion, accessibility and collaboration? Resources: The documentary ‘Power to the Children’: https://www.powertothechildren-film.com/ The book ‘Hello, Neighbourocracy!’: https://leanpub.com/helloneighbourocracy See also Sociocracy for All’s websites for more resources related to neighbourhood and children’s parliaments: https://www.sociocracyforall.org/