A Rational Fear
Om podkasten A Rational Fear
Australia's best comedic voices and experts savage the news and drill down on climate change. It's fast. It's funny. 🏆 Winner Best Comedy Podcast 2020 / 2021 - Australian Podcast Awards 🏆 Sign up to the newsletter: http://www.arationalfear.com
- Sesong 1
Splendour In The Grass — Trench Foot Edition: Scout Boxall, Paul McDermott +1, Jenny Tian, Dylan Behan, Lewis Hobba and Dan Ilic
🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear 📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/ Presenting a very soggy episode of A Rational Fear, live from Splendour In The Grass. Covering Scomo's sermon, a live shot of the sun, The Ballad of JK Rowling, plus Paul McDermott farewells the last of his Scomo Jokes. Joining us this week. Jenny Tian Scout Boxall Paul McDermott Dylan Behan Dan Ilic Lewis Hobba There will be some changes coming to the A Rational Fear feed in the next month — make sure you're signed up to the email list to keep abreast of the shenanigans. 🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear 📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/ A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
GMPOOG: Nick Bryant on how journalists could be covering climate change.
🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear 📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/ 👕 BUY OUR MERCH HERE Every now and then on the A Rational Fear Podcast feed we have a long-form conversation about climate change with climate leaders from all walks of life. We call them — The Greatest Moral Podcast Of Our Generation. On this episode of GMPOOG: Dan Ilic hosts a conversation with journalist Nick Bryant — Media watchers in Australia would certainly know Nick's work from the BBC and of course twitter. He's often got one of the clearest eyes on Australian and global politics. Nick is doing a special episode of his podcast, Journo, with journalists who cover climate, so he came on ARF's Greatest Moral Podcast Of Our Generation to chat about it. You can listen to the Journo Podcast here: https://jninstitute.org/education/journo-podcast/ On this episode we talk about News Corp's supposed move to embracing climate change, how Pasifika journalists see themselves, and also great yarns about Greta Thunberg and UN Secretary-General António Guterres. 🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear 📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/ 👕 BUY OUR MERCH HERE Dan Ilic 0:00 This podcast is supported in part by the birth of foundation. Daniel, it's with you here for another episode of The Greatest more podcasts of our generation on the irrational fear feed. If you haven't heard the gumboots before, it's largely conversations about climate change with Climate Leaders. Good and bad. We'll be back with the regular irrational fears show probably I reckon July maybe August, I'm taking a few weeks off because I am freaking exhausted after the election. I need to recharge. Think about this show. Think about how to make it better for the future. And all that stuff. You have any ideas hit me up on Twitter or email Dan at irrational fear.com We'd love to hear from you. Despite Robbie McGreggor 0:41 global warming, or rational fear, he's adding a little more heart here with long form discussions with Climate Leaders. Good. Unknown Speaker 0:53 This is called Don't be great. Heat waves and droughts. greatest mass extinction moral when facing a manmade disaster, podcast, climate criminals, Robbie McGreggor 1:07 Jenner raishin. Unknown Speaker 1:09 All of this with global warming and a lot of it's a hoax Robbie McGreggor 1:13 book, right. That's my role podcast about generation. Unknown Speaker 1:17 For short, Dan Ilic 1:18 many folks who listen to the podcast, you'd be familiar with the works of our next guest, Nick Bryant, BBC senior correspondent to Australia, South Asia, in Washington in New York. One thing you may not know about him is he holds a doctorate in American politics from Oxford. Like Nick has also been seconded by the Judith Nielsen Institute for journalism and ideas to host journalists, a podcast about journalism, those who dabble in it. My first question to Nick is have you ever been on a plane when they call for a doctor? Dr. Nick, Brian. Nick Bryant 1:46 I've always yearned for that moment. And to go out the front and to say, you know, what, what do you want to know about American history? But alas, Dan Ilic 1:54 let me talk to you about gerrymandering. Nick Bryant 1:56 Exactly. I could talk you through the sort of checks and balances of the US Constitution. But I don't think that would particularly help as this guy's of chokey God is, you know, first class mail. No, I haven't done that. But it's very sweetly mentioned the doctor. I mean, I've I've started deploying it for the first time in what 30 years, I've, I've left the BBC now and you've done Dan Ilic 2:16 the work. So you know, you've got to use those Doctor titles whenever you can. Like, Nick Bryant 2:21 I've hooked up with Sydney University, actually, where that kind of title carers a bit of clout, you know, so I have actually started using it again. But yeah, it still feels very odd when anybody calls me up to Brian, I gotta look around. There must be somebody else. Dan Ilic 2:36 Yeah. Well, I do think that American politics is so diseased that they could use your help. Brian, Nick Bryant 2:42 that is a great way of putting it. But I think, you know, is beyond the help of a physician at the moment, America, I think it is such a sickly state. Terminal, maybe it's too strong. But yeah, it's certainly got problems. I think it's terminal in terms of United States of America as a cohesive country right now. I think we're talking about to Americans, and, you know, across the board, I think you're going to, you know, the end of Roe versus Wade will mean there's an America where you can legally get an abortion as America where you can't get an abortion, there's going to be an America where you're more prone to get a pandemic, suffer from a pandemic, like COVID, as eras of America, to Americans is going to play out in so many different aspects of American life. Dan Ilic 3:24 Yeah. Anyway, let's talk about something that is a little bit more existential for the entire globe. You have been doing some reporting recently on people who have been doing reporting on climate this is, this is great. This is our wheelhouse here at irrational fear, Nick, as you may know, and so tell us, you have a bit of a strange climate journey in your own right. As a journalist, one of Nick Bryant 3:46 the things I do now is present a podcast called Gerardo and we look at sort of the biggest news of the day. And one of the things we decided to look at was was climate change. Dan Ilic 3:54 Why did you do that? Because the major parties in the last election totally forgot to mention anything about climate so strange that you would do that Nick Bryant 4:00 either. That's the reason we did it is to make sure that people remembered Hey, there's a planet under threat here. We need to be talking about this a lot more in the media. And of course, one of the areas. One of the surprising developments since I've come back to Australia is the greening of the of the Murdoch tabloids. So we we talked about a lot of things in this this podcast, and maybe we can talk about, you know, the some of the broader issues later on. But we started with this extraordinary turnaround in the run up to the Glasgow Climate Change Conference cop 26. Just before Christmas, we woke up that day and the Sydney Daily Telegraph, it turned green, talking about breeding cattle for Australia and the possibilities of Australia becoming this sort of renewable powerhouse. Dan Ilic 4:45 We had Joe Hildebrand on our podcast when that whole happened. We lost about 20 Patreon subscribers. Nick Bryant 4:53 Right What what Joe was part of this wraparound Well, exactly. Joe wrote a wrote a column they had the 16 paid wraparound it wasn't only in Sydney in The Daily Telegraph, it was the Tiser in in Adelaide for Adelaide, South Australia. That's the advertiser down in Adelaide, the Courier Mail, which is in Brisbane, the was it the Herald Sunday in America, Melbourne. I mean, all of the Murdoch tabloid came together. Agreed. Dan Ilic 5:18 It was a great six weeks, Nick, it was a great six weeks of climate change journalist. Nick Bryant 5:23 Yeah, we were fascinated with how that came about. I mean, you know, these are titles traditionally that that have been associated with climate change skepticism that are really had a go at things like the carbon tax, they've run headlines like the zombie carbon tax, and all this kind of stuff. And we were absolutely fascinated with how that turnaround had happened. Dan Ilic 5:40 Let's have a listen of from Ben English, the editor of the Daily Telegraph, Unknown Speaker 5:44 the issue of climate change had never been tackled from a disinterested objective, and a straightforward journalistic investigative approach, we felt that a lot of the journalism had actually veered into activism. And there'd been a lack of curiosity about a lot of the data that have been presented, we felt that it had been written from a viewpoint that we will characterize as more elite. And I think that's why we felt that it hadn't really resonated with our readers that it had been from a lofty height and element of guilt and shame around it all. We felt it was an opportunity to actually be right at the heart of the conversation, but do it from a viewpoint of everyday Australians. Now, Dan Ilic 6:22 Nick, I'd look at some of those wraparounds at the time, and you know, who was writing some of those articles? Who, Gina Reinhardt? Twiggy Forrest, would you call them lofty and elite, the richest woman in Australia? Would you recall her? Luffy lit. And the other thing about Ben English is quite there's like, never up until September 2021. Has any journalists covered climate change at a disinterested, objective and straightforward manner? Wow, thank God, thank God for being English and The Daily Telegraph to finally come to the party to tell us what was really happening with climate change. Nick Bryant 6:54 I look down at that boat leapt out at me as well. But we were just fascinated with how this turnaround came about how they decided they would attend the party Dan Ilic 7:05 six six specials in the lead up to COP is not a turn around, though. It's it's like a marketing spin for the 2050 program that Scott Morrison took to the to cop like it's such a weird, such a weird thing to kind of looking back at in retrospect. Now, that happened last year, and we haven't seen anything about climate from The Daily Telegraph since then. Nick Bryant 7:25 Well, that's something you need to take up with Ben English. And those are questions. Those are questions that that we put to him. The you know, what I think was interesting about it, talking about the sort of longer term ramifications of it. I mean, some people thought, you know, is this Rupert Murdoch and Lachlan Murdoch telling these guys to do this and telling these these editors to do this, or is this something that is or more organic and bottom up rather than top down? And, you know, very clearly bad English said, you know, wasn't a murder initiative. You know, like, they say, they've got autonomy, they can do what they want. And they decided they were going to do this, like, I saw a lot of money heading into the sort of new energy space. They follow that money that he said, all that kind of thing. And what it didn't do, Dan, as you know, is is bring about a bigger kind of, you know, come to Jesus moment, if that's indeed what it was. And I mean, I know you're skeptical about that. And me too, what it didn't do was signify something broader within the Murdoch Empire, which was this, you know, were we going to see a change in the Wall Street Journal, were we going to see a change of Fox News? Obviously, that just hasn't happened either. Dan Ilic 8:29 Do you think this is News Corp trying to keep the coalition in power by making the move on climate in a meaningful way? Nick Bryant 8:37 Oh, there's a lot of talk that the politics behind it was to give them cover before Glasgow wasn't there's a Dan Ilic 8:44 lot of talk behind it that the six issues of The Daily Telegraph that came out, up until the six weeks of cup. Nick Bryant 8:51 Yeah, and the idea of being you know, you make the deal easier between the Nationals when you're trying to get to that emissions target. I think one thing it might have done is help labor neutralize the issue. So much of Labour's political strategy ahead of the federal election was obviously, to neutralize climate changes. And this year, I remember talking to Anthony Albanese this Sunday, maybe it was the week after his. He released his climate change policy. You remember he did it a Friday afternoon a classic sort of bury the news strategy. And that's right. He had a soft launch of his campaign, just two days after that. And I remember talking to his aides just before that launch, and, and they were just delighted with have, you know, little attention was being paid. I think I think the announcement made the kind of front page of The Daily Telegraph that morning but it was kind of it was right at you had to have almost a microscope to see it. And I remember sort of, they pointed me towards a pizza Archer pizza which in the Sydney Morning Herald that talks about Labour's Environment Policy not not so much as All target as a as a zero target as a no target. And I thought they maybe they wouldn't be that happy with that characterization. But they absolutely love that characterization. They love the fact that they, they'd launched this climate change policy, and it really hadn't made any kind of tabloid splash. And maybe, you know, that change of Dan Ilic 10:21 attitude for added to have the telegraph? Yeah, if Nick Bryant 10:23 it was meaningful. I mean, one thing it did do, seemingly, is to neutralize the issue of climate change. But I mean, you had you had an election, obviously, where it was hardly discussed, which is, you know, extraordinary. I think, you know, if you're, if you're going to be looking back on the federal election in 2022, and in 100 years time, and climate change doesn't even really feature. You know, I think people are going to be thinking about what was going on. Dan Ilic 10:47 Just absolutely astonishing that, you know, the media kind of skipped over climate change a lot with this election, and the major parties weren't talking about it at all. Yet. The election result is all about climate, you had these climate independents, pretty much dismantle the Liberal Party, you had these greens on the rise. The one thing that everyone wasn't talking about was the actual clincher for this election. Yeah, I Nick Bryant 11:10 think that's absolutely fascinating. And it's a brilliant point, you know, this will be regarded as the climate change election, but it wasn't the Climate Change Campaign. from it. I thought that was fascinating. I mean, the Guardian did some quite interesting research, I think hooking up with a university, I think it was one of the ones in Melbourne, they looked at the discrepancy between the questions that were being asked on the campaign trail, and the sort of questions that were really in the uppermost in people's minds, actually, cost of living was number one, on both. But climate change, there was a discrepancy, you know, it was far higher in the minds of voters than it was in the minds of journalists, when they're asking those questions. Yeah, look, it was a really small ball campaign, I think, you know, I think journalists need to have a bit of a think about how they covered it, to be honest, because I think the the gotcha line of questioning, which rarely went into climate change, did it, it was more on the kind of it spoke about the financialization of politics in Australia, and how, you know, obsessively people focus on economic indices often rather than mental health indices, or environmental indices, or that kind of thing. You know, I think that media probably does need to have a bit of a rethink about how habit covers these campaigns, because those kind of big issues just weren't given the airing that they should have been given. Dan Ilic 12:26 The perfect metaphor was I think, elbow second big stuff up on the campaign trail when he couldn't remember the NDIS policy. You know, that, you know, the, the forum for that press conference where they were at that at that press conference? No, where were they? They were at the Smart Energy Council. Alex Dyson 12:44 prints, there are this Smart Energy Council Expo Albo had just jumped out of an electric semi trailer. And we're walking around the conference floor cut, like surrounded by batteries and solar panels and wind farms, right. And the thing that the journalist asked about with his NDIS policy that he didn't know the answer to and had to get a press release to read off, that is the perfect, it's a perfect summation of where this where this, this media pack was at. You're at an you're at a green tech conference, not asking anything about green tech, but trying to catch the opposition leader off off track on something other other than green tech. Nick Bryant 13:21 Dan, it's a brilliant metaphor. I'm going to squirrel that away and use it sometime in the future, because I think it's absolutely perfect. You're right. I was actually with Alba the next day. I was with him. He went to a homeless shelter. I don't sorry, a place that was a food bank. That was that was giving people food for people that were struggling as largely a result of COVID. You know, they've seen people they've never seen before. And again, the questioning really wasn't about that. What was what happened was a rerun of the NDIS. Gotcha for the day before. So we had a cut a two day gotcha, where the reporter who asked the NDIS question kept asking it the day later. Yeah, it was kind of nuts. I think what I saw for this time, though, Dan, and I, you know, I've rarely seen this in Britain. I've seen it a lot in America, journalists getting booed, especially in Trump rallies and things like that. Yeah, I'm kind of used to that. But it's, it came as a surprise in Australia. I spent a day with Morrison and I spent a day with Albanese. And these days did not I mean, you know, they put on these kind of dreadful photo ops, you know, they, they were their high visibility jackets, you know, it looks like it's sort of transcontinental costume party. And, you know, then there's this half hour that, you know, all the journalists sign themselves up for they get to ask the questions now. My David Morrison, Mia with elbow. Those press conferences, both ended up with the journalist being heckled by members of the public, who just thought their questioning was was going too far. It was turning the election into a game a trivial pursuit. It was, you know, not treating. And it was really interesting. And, you know, what, what really worries me? I mean, talking sort of big picture is this disconnect between the public and the press now and you're seeing it across the world? You know, misinformation is the kind of benefit free of this breakdown in trust. And it really worries me. And, you know, we need to raise our game, whether it's political coverage, or whether it's climate change coverage. I mean, I just think that is an obvious thing that we all need to do as journalists, one of the things I think we should do as climate change journalists, you know, how are our kids going to look at our coverage, and when they grew up, how future generations I think that should be the test of our, our climate change coverage. And I think, you know, frankly, most of most of us are found and wanting on that front. Dan Ilic 15:32 Yeah, I mean, I'm Ben English isn't I mean, he's obviously making great strides by alerting Tim Blair and Andrew bolt and Peter cradling set the climate coverage for The Daily Telegraph by saying it's not real. Nick Bryant 15:43 I mean, I'll tell you one thing I did get to do in New York, which was really interesting. I got to cover the Greta tunberg speech at the United Nations. Remember when she sort of stood there and just harangue the delegates? How dare you? It was just this electrifying moment. I mean, you know, a lot of the speeches at the United Nations are known for how long they went on. I think Fidel Castro used to speak for about three days. Greta Thunberg, gave this extraordinary speech. And I mentioned it, not only because it's an extraordinary historical moment, I got to interview a couple of days before, oh, how amazing. That was fascinating. And partly because they told me beforehand, rather, doesn't do small talk, which for a prayer is kind of paralyzing. Dan Ilic 16:26 What was your opening line now? Well, I Nick Bryant 16:28 said to her handlers, and Greta tunberg, is part of a very sophisticated media operation there. And it's really interesting to see her at the heart of this kind of group that uses her as this, I mean, gives her this platform and also understands the value of what she has to say, and the power of the way she says it. I said to her look, you know, I'm a Brit. I mean, we just talk about the weather, surely, surely, she wants to talk about that. But Dan Ilic 16:53 Nick, weather is not climate. Nick Bryant 16:56 But I mentioned it, because it was the only time in my career, that my kids actually thought I had a worthwhile job. And I think that's interesting, because I thought, you know, Dad, you should be spending more time doing climate change. And, you know, my kids actually took part in the protest that she led through the streets of New York, you know, they, they took the day off school, or whatever, they went on strike. And, you know, they were there, and they were young kids, then I mean, they were kind of 10 and eight, I think, even nine and seven. Anyway, you know, it was that classic Daddy, what did you do in the war? You know, and I think that's a good question for journalists to ask themselves. When it comes to covering covering climate change? Dan Ilic 17:35 I think so I you know, I used to be a regular on insiders up until I put billboards in New York City making fun of climate change. And I got asked not to come on inside is because of that, like, because it was deemed that you know, that act turned me into something more than a different than a comedian and that I couldn't, I couldn't possibly go on inside as any more to make jokes about cartoons that have been written in the newspaper. So they Nick Bryant 17:59 had you on inside. It's in that segment where? Okay, right? Dan Ilic 18:04 I've done I've done that many times. So, but it was after that it was after I put a funny joke on myself in on a billboard in New York City, that I was deemed an activist and could no longer possibly, objectively make jokes about the cartoons that other cartoonists have done? Nick Bryant 18:21 Well, I think it's a really interesting question, because I do think that climate change journalism fits within the model of a great tradition of campaigning journalism. You know, we used to talk about Dan Ilic 18:39 like the macro muckraking going way back, you know, Nick Bryant 18:43 we talk about the sort of heroic era of British newspapers when they sort of showed, you know, the drugs that cause flu minimized and and, you know, it's seen as great campaigning, journalism. And, you know, I think, for me, I think I don't see the reason why we shouldn't regard climate change as an issue where we should have great campaigning, journalism. And if journalists face the accusation that they are straying into kind of activism. Do you know what I think we can kind of, I think we can live with that. I think we can live with that. I think there are certain crises that require certainly an end to the kind of both sides tourism, Dan Ilic 19:29 it's hard to know is James Monroe, an activist is he like, when you when you say folks like for the like, of the strident news COVID. And on the insiders, those guys are just activists for a totally other thing? Nick Bryant 19:41 Yeah. And I think a lot of news organizations now sort of getting away from that guy on both sides or as a model. You know, the BBC, for years is sort of said the debate is over about the science. So we're not going to sort of we're not going to start our morning on the Today Show, which is the big radio show in Britain and everybody listens to with a debate Pitzer climate change activists against the climate change skeptic, we're just not bothered with that debates gone. We're moving on, we're gonna think about solutions. And I mean, maybe, maybe some would regard that as, as activism. But it's, it's just, you know, there's a truth bias there. It's not a kind of bias towards it is the truth bias. And I mean, I think that, you know, the truth bias is always the kind of key one that we should we should veer towards. Dan Ilic 20:27 It is of course, a global issue. And you've been speaking to people all over the world about how they cover it, including the Guardians Pacific editor from Samoa. Nick Bryant 20:37 Yeah, lunga breather, Cheryl Jackson, she is absolutely fantastic about this. I mean, I thought she was really interesting. I mean, first of all, climate change for her. It's a story that dominates the front page, the back page, and every page in between, you know, very little happens in Samoa, that doesn't involve climate change. And, you know, I was intrigued to speak to her about the challenge, you know, how do you keep telling the same story every every single day? You know, the conversation I had with her was really interesting, because she spoke about how patronizing she often thinks Western coverage of the Pacific Islands is, you know, they Dan Ilic 21:11 gotta grab for her just Unknown Speaker 21:12 Yeah. It has always been the sexy topic in international media to talk about the sinking islands. All the helpless little islands in the Pacific. They are sinking, they are dying. We are not about that narrative in the Pacific. We're actually about empowering. We're a proud people, Nick, you know, Polynesians, Polynesians are not taking anything lying down, you meet the Micronesians. They will not be taking this lying down, and they are not doing that. And so those are the stories we love to tell. Great. Nick Bryant 21:47 Yeah, I love that. She's saying, you know, you've got to get away from the doom and gloom narrative, you've got to get away from the narrative that we are helpless, you know, come to Polynesia. She said, an invitation I will happily accept editor and see the laughter You know, it's it's a place that isn't of living with this, you know, kind of mournful way. She said that she said, we don't grieve every day. You know, we are a joyous people. We laugh a lot. And he Polynesians are very faithful people, they wouldn't believe in a bright future. And there's a classic sort of white savior syndrome here as well, isn't it that it needs us as the white west to come and save these Islanders? And, uh, you know, again, she just rejects that sort of paradigm. Yeah. But when it when it comes to the reporting, I thought it was absolutely wonderful to speak to her and, and to hear that because it shows that even sort of well intentioned climate change coverage can can often go a bit of skew. Dan Ilic 22:45 Yeah. And you also spoke to Andrew McCormick, adjunct professor at Columbia University, Columbia Journalism Review. What kind of coverage does he do? Nick Bryant 22:55 Well, he's a really interesting guy, because he was in the US Navy. And he decided, you know, what's the best way I can sort of serve? And he decided to leave the military and actually to become a climate change correspondent, you know, we were talking to him about, you know, what good climate change coverage looks like this. This problem of, you know, for me, I mean, often climate change is a, what I call a diary story, rather than the daily story. It's a subject that gets a lot of attention around the time that the big summits like Glasgow, but falls off the radar in between. And I think a lot of the coverage that you see around the big conferences is often to expiate the guilt of newsrooms, you know, I haven't been doing an athlete's that's really monster around the climate change summits, you know. And, and he sort of accepts that that's a big problem. I think one of the interesting things he sat down was that COVID has shown how creative, you know, the journalistic profession can be you know, a lot of creative energy was brought to how to cover COVID. You know, so we saw things like, you know, the redesign of front pages to accommodate, you know, daily stats to tell us how many cases there were, how many desks there were that kind of stuff. I mean, he spoke about the New York Times one day had an amazing headline during the middle of COVID in New York. And I mean, this was when 100 people a day were dying in New York City alone. And I had COVID earlier on in the fear that that that brought, you mentioned this Times headline, and that, you know, the New York Times isn't known for its sort of radical newspaper design, far from it. But they had this spike in the death rate that that actually went right through the front page, and up into the masthead. So that kind of disrupted the words New York Times and, you know, he just showed a few examples of how during COVID You know, there was a real rethink, how are we going to tell this dramatic story, how we're going to tell this kind of emergency crisis story. And he doesn't always see that same creative approach when it comes to climate change reporting, and I thought that I thought that was really interesting. Dan Ilic 24:53 Yeah, I'd love to see the daily carbon dioxide parts per million stat on the front of the Daily Telegraph. That's what madingley shouldn't be doing. It's 113,000,413 parts per million Ben put that on the front cover. Nick Bryant 25:07 Finding those stats is a bit tricky, is it? Because it's kind of like, you know, pretty meaningless. And I think that gets you into another area of climate change reporting, which is how do you turn the stats into interesting stories? And the way to get to that is always through the humans, the human face. Dan Ilic 25:22 What's it going to take? What's it going to take for news orgs to really focus on climate to bring those stories to bear that are more than just a diary event? The IPCC? Nick Bryant 25:32 Yeah. I mean, Sky News is quite interesting study is a very different entity in, in Britain, it is in, in Australia, in Australia, it's not owned by Rupert Murdoch anymore. It's, and they actually have a nightly new show devoted solely devoted to climate, you know, they have made a daily commitment to actually say, you know, I don't know how long the program is 1015 minutes every night, we're gonna bring you a, we're going to bring you climate change news. And I think that is a really welcome development, when you kind of make that that sort of commitment, because that doesn't look to me, like window dressing, that, that that feels that's that feels meaningful to me. And, you know, they've done it. And, you know, it would be good if other other news organizations follow suit as well. Because, you know, Dan, this is, you know, this is the biggie. I mean, I still think 2020 in 100 years time, you know, we'll look back on 2020. And we'll look at the wildfires in Australia as being a more significant event in terms of the future of the planet, then COVID. You know, we're looking at, we're looking at the fact that people in Sydney were wearing face masks, not because of a an infection, but because of the air quality, because the wildfires and we think that was the most significant thing that happened in 2020. A look, I think, often it requires political leadership to dramatize these issues. I mean, I was actually you know, name dropping horribly, I ended up in a small lunch with Antonio Guterres in New York around Dan Ilic 27:06 these guys like Greta Alba. Tony a guitar as Nick Bryant 27:13 well, you have a Trump, sir, if you weren't, but it really relates to climate change. But this one does. And it was it was a small lunch with Antonio Guterres, you know, Secretary under the United Nations, it was in the midst of the obviously wildfires. And, you know, because I love AWS and I've pretty close eye on what was happening here, even though when I lived in, in America, you know, I just said to terrorism, why don't you fly to Australia, stand in front of one of these bushfires or sound as close as you can get. And just use it as this dramatic backdrop to say, we are saying something immeasurably different. Here we are, because he makes these speeches in New York and these sorts of doll settings, you know, the stakeout position at the UN, where they come to the microphone, and you know, it's always the same and the words are often the same as well, he just sort of repeats the same warning that he's made every year. But if you actually repeated those words, with a wildfire, a bushfire happening behind you, it would be so dramatic. And you know, guitarist is just really reluctant to do that he never wants to name and shame countries that are laggards on climate change. And Australia's obviously being one of those. And he just doesn't want to go there. And I think that has been a big problem as well. You know, journalists relies on actors who have real power and and often they are the politicians and the leaders of the UN who aren't delivering the kind of graphic pictorial leadership that sometimes journalist journalist needs to be really really effective. Dan Ilic 28:50 I do remember a photo of him in maybe you this conversation you had with him. Nick actually had some effect on him. He he I still remember this photo of him in Fiji in his suit, waist height and water. So it wasn't quite this. He did. I can't claim credit. So maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe Nick Bryant, you are the you're a faceless man behind the Antonia terrorism's photo shoot. Nick Bryant 29:13 Anybody who's seen my face with a faceless version of me with Dan Ilic 29:17 that's not true, Nick. You know, the other journalists Nick, Brian in New York City. He's got the got his website, Nick, Brian nyc.com. He's got a disclaimer on his website saying I'm not the BBC next, Brian. He's much more handsome than May. Nick Bryant 29:31 Oh, I can't believe that's true. But we're there is another name Brian and he he really focuses on sex abuse against kids and he's become I think a lot of people have taken him up in sort of conspiracy theory, circles and, ya know, we, I'm constantly getting I mean, he he, for instance, discovered that Jeffrey Epstein had that, that black book and I'm constantly getting asked to do interviews about Jeffrey Epstein's black book Dan Ilic 30:00 Yeah Well Nick thank you it's been a net oh sorry doctor Nick It's been an absolute privilege to have you on greatest moral podcast of our generation Nick Bryant 30:07 it's nice to be on thanks thanks for having me A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
JUDITH NEILSON INSTITUTE LIVE: The Joke Is Mightier Than The Pen
🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear 📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/ G’day Fearmongers — It is with great thanks to the Judith Neilson Institute for Journalism and Ideas we can bring you this excellent conversation about satire and journalism. Can satire change the world? Never. Can satire be more powerful than journalism? Doubtful. Can satire be journalism? Probably not. Australia’s top satirists will ask themselves these questions and come up with the same answers during a special live event from A Rational Fear and JNI. In this episode of A Rational Fear some of Australia’s most available smart arses wrangle with their (questionable) career choices and take a deep dive into satire’s ability to replace journalists at half the price. Featuring cartoonist Cathy Wilcox, Dylan Behan (Newsfighters), Jan Fran (The Project), Ben Jenkins (The Feed), Lewis Hobba (Triple J), and Dan Ilic (A Rational Fear). Check out the photos below the podcast links 📸 👇 📺 You can watch the whole video of this even exclusively on the A Rational Fear Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear or keep an eye on the @ARationalFear socials for 1 min snippets over the next few weeks. Big thanks to everyone at JNI who helped us pull it together. Cheers Dan Ilic 🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear 📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/ Dan Ilic 0:00 Dan Ilic here with a pre show announcement to let you know that if you missed out on tickets to the opera house show for our 10 years of irrational fear, you can listen to it now it's on the irrational fear Patreon. So go to patreon.com forward slash irrational fear, become a member and you'll see the post there. The audio is a little dodgy because the recording was recorded at quite a high level. So unfortunately, the really loud music of Paul McDermott we had to cut out but the good news is we're going to try and get him on a nother live show next month, so you'll be able to hear that right here on the free fade podcasts, I think. Yeah, so go to irrational fear.com forward slash patreon to hear our 10 years of irrational fear live show live from the Sydney Opera House. It was astonishing. And let me just say Louis hubbers rant about the Queen's Jubilee was something else. It'll make you feel extremely patriotic. Right now. However, you're going to listen to an incredible live show we did at the Judith Nielsen Institute for journalism and ideas about a month ago, about two weeks before the federal election. This was a show loosely about satire versus journalism. I think it was called The joke is mightier than the pen. And we had some of the best satirist in Sydney. Join us on stage to discuss whether comedy or satire is better than journalism right there in the home the crucible of Australian journalism, which is the Judith Nielsen Institute. So please enjoy this live show. If you were a member of the Patreon you probably would have seen the video of this about a month ago. So as he does this thing you get these live shows a little before everyone else. So please go to patreon.com forward slash irrational fear to get early access to our live shows and our special events. All right, catch you later. We're at the Judith Nielsen Institute. It's beautiful. I'm recording my end of irrational fear I'm gonna go out to the urination. Sovereignty was never said we did a treaty. Let's stop the show. Simon Chilvers 2:00 A rational fear contains naughty words like bricks, Canberra, and gum and section 40 of a rational view recommended listening by immature audience. Dan Ilic 2:13 Tonight satirists declare themselves so important they don't actually have to be funny. Journalists declares themselves hilarious after putting 10 Dog pugs in a story about hot dogs. If you can wait a Walkley for a wacky headline where's the Walkley for most scathing Trump impression it's 15 days since the next sales 15 days until the next federal election Saturday stadion punch lines, this is irrational fear. Lewis Hobba 2:42 And such natural cheers. Dan Ilic 2:59 Putting this in putting your cheese in context, Louis and I just did a show the billboard International Comedy Festival in front of 800 people and it was slightly slightly we were used to a slightly different level of cheering Lewis Hobba 3:11 every person here is worth 100 Melbournian Dan Ilic 3:15 Welcome to a rational fee on your host former host of CBS his Late Late Show Dan Ilic. And this is irrational fear live at the Judith Nielsen Institute where we'll be asking the question, is the joke mightier than the pen open open brackets? Probably not close brackets question mark. All right now we've put together a Supreme Team of Sydney's satirist to ask this question or to answer this question and what a team it is the very fact that Sydney has like five employed satirists is astonishing. It says a lot about the political comedy industrial complex, doesn't it? Let's meet our female guest tonight. They are a writer, performer, director and podcaster currently slinging topical jokes at the mainstream media from the bastion of the mainstream media. It is SBS is Ben Jenkins What is it like to be so anti authority but being a part of the authority Ben Jenkins 4:13 tremendously ironic? I'm really digging into my Amicus roots by producing satire with government money Dan Ilic 4:23 and we've got a three time Walkley award winning cartoonist who has jokes his sharpest pencil it's Kathy Wilcox friend of the show have you killed anyone with your with your pencil before? Cathy Wilcox 4:41 Look just bugs I guess. infest the scanner and things like that a little wild corruption. Oh, that's Lewis Hobba 4:50 when the radical loony kills a duck a day Dan Ilic 4:59 and there are comedy created purveyor of wacky clips former Chase aired and the creator of the topical comedy podcasts of news fighters is Dylan Bane Dylan You're a faceless man of satire. How does that feel to have your face out here for once? I've never had this many people in my edit suite in my life. Walkley award winning opinion as to has risen to the heights of becoming one of Australia's greatest ever smart officers. It's Jan January you're at the top now you're Australia's number one smart is what makes me do Jan Fran 5:35 you know, I just want to just create human like God like a God, just that sort of thing. I'm the spontaneous flatulence part of just FYI. So you're in for Dan Ilic 5:49 and he's the host of Triple J drive. But what sets him apart on this panel is that he is a taller, cheaper Andrew Denton, Lewis Lewis, thanks for being Andrew Denton on this pedal. Lewis Hobba 6:02 Thank you. Yeah, I'm the only Andrew Denton who shows up to events and 20 Ben Jenkins 6:07 if I if I get Andrew Johnson went into the machine with the fly, but it was there was a drop in. Lewis Hobba 6:13 Not I'm not in the category of COVID. So he sends me out of his body. Does Dan Ilic 6:18 everyone give COVID to limit your immune right now? All right, great. Now tonight as a panel, we as well as you were going to decide on this answer on the question. If jokes are better than journalism, it is a bit of a hard one. But all of us has an important role in this room. Because at the end, we're going to take a poll and then we're going to put it on this sheet which Kathy has designed and then we're going to mail it to the Governor General and it will be then sent to royal assent and we've even got Unknown Speaker 6:58 Royal Assent Lewis Hobba 7:05 with damping Seto to me I was like I don't know what Royal Assent Was anyone else don't know what royal was Ben Jenkins 7:10 like don't worry the sound will fix Yeah. Unknown Speaker 7:12 Okay side of royal decent. Ben Jenkins 7:16 The office to get to a throne. Dan Ilic 7:19 Rolled to said isn't that Prince Andrew? We've actually got our very own special postie. posi. Sarah is here. She's going to take take whatever we decide tonight and mail it direct to the Governor General. It's very exciting. All right. Now before we get into the nitty gritty, I just want to talk to you a little bit about news consumption in Australia. We've done a visit very research heavy, this part of the show. Now first of all, there's some pretty interesting things that are happening with media consumption in Australia right now. And it's all got to do with those damn meddling kids. In 2020, a survey of young people found that social media outrank their family and friends as television as their main source of news. Now this statistic isn't surprising. We all know that young people can't get enough of their damn phones. But when you put it in context of the bigger picture, you can see just how online as a news source has grown across generations with newspapers in the top three news sources for only the pre Boomer generation. That is crazy. Oh, that's older than Lewis. That is pretty astounding effect in 2020. For the first time, online news sources outranked all the other forms of news in terms of consumption for Australians, and also young folks, for the first time, I actually setting the agenda as to how those new sources are being influenced in Australia, which is super interesting. There was no kind of greater moment for satire. I think, though the power of satire. Then, when Facebook turned off the taps to news in Australia, I don't know if you remember this is this is on their platform in 2021. That was about 300 years ago. I think there are people in this room who weren't even born then. In case you don't remember, we made this handy explainer to remind you just what happened. Rupert Murdoch 9:10 So why isn't there any news on your Facebook news feed and here's a quick explainer by me Rupert Murdoch left hand on general of the News Corp and assorted expeditionary forces. Now, Mark Zuckerberg owns a website, Facebook, and Google owns a website called Google's and their websites own the data of all Australians who use it, which means they know what you want before you do. They're really good at selling advertising. I own a newspapers that are really bad at selling advertising. And those newspapers own the Australian Government and the Australian government makes laws so one day on a whim I thought Geez Louise with bad at selling air, everyone 60 month interest free deals for electrical computers furniture, bedding and flooring from Harvey Norman. Some people want magnetic lashes mailings that make your bum pop and other. We have no idea. But then I said to myself, Rupert, you own a good government, just sitting there doing nothing. Maybe you can get them to force the blokes with the websites that are good at selling ads to give us money. Then I called the government to my house by private jet made them pay for it. And I said, Hello, government, man, I forget their names. If you still enjoy being the government, can you do this? And they said, We do still enjoy being the government boss. Yes. And yes, we can do that. Now the websites that are good at selling ads have to by law, give me money. And the best part about it, Googles and Facebooks give the money straight to me tax free, and we wouldn't have it any other way of why start paying tax now. Some journalists would say Oh, but there's no way to guarantee that money will be invested in New Journalism. Well, none of those journalists work for me. I don't hire. You may have noticed Facebook news is back. For now. Zuckerberg told the government is only going to pay us if he feels like it. Well, I respect that. At the end of the day, Facebook, Google and I all agree that we're not going to pay any money. Because why would you? There are a bunch of cowards. Dan Ilic 11:59 So, what's this got to do with new satire? Well, on that day, seven out of the 10, top postings from websites on Facebook were news websites, some entertainment news, and there's a couple of satire in there too. But the very following day, nine out of the 10 links posted on Facebook, we're delivering news from satire sites, and the audience is young and you know it. Very lucky to have John here from the chaser. He is one of the one of the slaves of the chaser working for minimum wage fleeing jokes going around it boys tonight. So we got the tutor advocate makeup 12345, the top five The Chaser in six and seven in the budget advocate, and the only one website to not actually be satire in the top 10. On that day was the Penrith Panthers website. And that's arguable, that's arguable it's arguable that they don't satire. Yeah. Do they even exist? pretty astounding stuff there. For folks in the audience who don't know what is a particular advocate. It's like the onion in the outback. It's a satirical newspaper set in the outback. This is their front page for today. I really like this one about elbows latest gaff journalists trick questions backfires, as Alberto is able to name entire Rabbitohs 1971 grand final side. Very good. This is some other headlines from today. Channel Seven reveals Sonia Kruger will stay on after big brother to moderate next leaders debate. This is one from the from a few months back that I love bloke who regularly buys pictures of strangers in pub bathrooms not sure what's inside this vaccine. And this one good is always this one always rolls out whenever there's a bit of gun violence in America, Australia enjoys another peaceful day under the oppressive gun control regime. And of course, there's the chaser and the chaser has very kind of similar sort of deal on their, on their front page as well. Very funny stuff. And thankfully, Charles sent me Charles from the Chase has sent me this data about their audience. And it's pretty astounding to see, you know, 2534 35 to 44, all the way to 54. That's a huge chunk of the audience there. A bunch of those young people will start consuming the chaser and bitter at bat at their age and then continue on for years to come. But let's put it in comparison, the footprints of these kinds of websites to other mainstream media. So SBS who Ben works for on Instagram has 117,000 followers on SBS Instagram. At the very top you've got ABC News. Lewis Hobba 14:40 Take that Ben vs loser for SBS. Dan Ilic 14:47 ABC is Australia's most trusted news brand, that's for sure. Seven 789,000 followers on Instagram. Does anyone want to hazard a guess as to how many followers that are advocate head to toe, shaking it up two fellas, three and 1000 Jan Fran 15:05 approaching a male I Dan Ilic 15:06 recommend reaching a mil anybody over a male 1.1 It is not under 50,000 followers. They are the biggest news brand on Instagram in Australia. Lewis Hobba 15:17 And also they make a delicious beer. Dan Ilic 15:24 Yeah, and also in terms of power of satire and kind of communicating ideas. A simple article like carbon capture and storage might get 25,000 clicks on ABC News. But when turned into interesting package with satire and jokes, with juice media, you can get close to a million. So satire reaches audiences. And I want to ask the fear mongers here tonight. Let's talk about it if a scoop falls in the forest, and no one is there to see it doesn't even exist. Do ratings matter here do cliques matter here? Ben Jenkins 15:58 Well, as somebody from SPS, I have to say straight away, ratings don't matter. In fact, in fact, I see ratings in a similar way to golf. The lower you get you win. I'm gonna go on to talk about this. In the little thing I'm talking about, I think when we talk about reach, we still have to talk about what that reach does. Because it's, you know, it's one thing to say, only certain people read this article, but heaps people saw this sketch. What what's it doing for those people? You know, what I mean? Like, like, what information is being conveyed? I'm not saying these things are completely devoid of information. But I am saying that, like, you know, what's the outcome there? Because from the creators point of view, those numbers are wackadoo Gray, like people are watching it, and they're being entertained by it, or at least they're sharing it. I hate watching whatever else, but like, to paraphrase, Tao carob, Derrick hanging from the castle, it's what you do with it, you know what I mean? Like, it's what, what's going on when people are ingesting? That is my question. Lewis Hobba 17:01 Yeah. Like the, for example, the like, vaccine joke on the tutor about, you know, men who Beiping is in a bathroom, but won't take the vaccine that was like, you know, that was a great joke. Everyone made that joke at some point. And, but like, No, that is not helping, like you don't like if you sent that to an anti Vaxxer. They're just gonna be like, well, it's just funny, stern fucking joke. And like, don't get me wrong. It's not like you can send them a well reasoned argument that will do it either. But it's kind of like, I don't necessarily think that a satire, satire reaching an audience is the same as satire, teaching an audience and also Ben Jenkins 17:35 as as an article like that article that languished on those low numbers like would have had one would hope it's ABC. So you know, it's gonna be good, like, a lot of interesting things that these people wouldn't necessarily have considered or heard. But yeah, I mean, I do think it's like, really interesting that like, this stuff has the cut through that it does. And I think it speaks to as much of the sort of skill and ability of the satirist as much as it does to the lack of talent in Australian media, not NSA. You know what I mean? Like, if this is, I think it's kind of going like that, if that makes sense. Dan Ilic 18:09 Yeah, Jen, you make tons of viral kind of videos that go gangbusters. Do you ever dare to look at the analytics to see how long people have watched? Jan Fran 18:17 That's all I'm doing? Yes, I think like it to answer the first question. If a scoop falls in the forest, no one hears it, like does it make a sound? Does it land anywhere? The short answer is not really until you need some kind of a baseline to try and decipher the new spectrum. So for example, you can say, oh, Sky News is over here. SBS is over here. Nobody watches either of those things. That doesn't really matter. But they're kind of pretending Yeah, so I think the importance of of stories or news outlets to exist, even though they don't get a super high audience is just to be able to diversify, I suppose the media landscape, right, because we do have a diversity problem in terms of ownership rather than, you know, cultural or gender diverse. Lewis Hobba 19:14 news.com we have the Australian and we have the Guardian male and the Herald. Plenty of news. Dan Ilic 19:24 As a subscriber of the Sydney Morning Herald, I feel like sometimes I'm subsidizing your Twitter account. Cathy Wilcox 19:31 You probably are. And I would say, you know, whether we whether what I do has cut through or not, is demonstrated by the fact that if I do things that are that are universally critical of the government, they love me. There's, you know, lots of retweets and lots of likes and all the rest of it. And then I do one cartoon about, you know, maybe elbows not not performing as well as he might. So I don't know if it's ringing anyone around. Less occasionally someone might say, okay, fair point, but mostly people. That's really unfair. I mean, the current changes I Jan Fran 20:08 have water drops. Very, very Ben Jenkins 20:11 often. It's the sort of other side of what you were saying Jen about, like, a diversified media and like, it's, obviously you want a range of views and the media is far more like, I don't mean ethnically diverse, although, I mean, that would be nice. I mean, like, you know, so it's not just one thing, but what comes from having all these little pockets is a siloing effect. And Twitter is really a good example of that where everybody's really solid on their own thing. And so the polarization there of like you making a relatively benign criticism of say the leader of Labour Party all of a sudden they just don't they don't get that from their own internal silos so they think what's happening, she's been turned. Dan Ilic 20:57 The only time irrational fear has lost subscribers on Patreon across the month has been the day that we had Joe Hildebrand on so we can make fun of him to his face about new scopes turned to being a green environmental publication. We spent half an hour making jokes to Joe Hildebrand to his face about news Corp's track record on climate change. Lewis Hobba 21:18 But I also think that is an interesting point in terms of like satire reaching an audience is because, like, for something like that, for instance, like we we don't make we don't make our living off irrational fear. So that's fine. Like we can go Lewis Dan Ilic 21:32 Lewis doesn't make his living rational. Lewis Hobba 21:36 Which is lucky because I think I'm about $1,000 in the hole to this podcast. But what all these delicious soft drinks and once again, I'm gonna cheat a bit us sponsoring my lifestyle. Nova like it means like in the future, you may not get your Hildebrand on, right? Because you can't afford to not have that or like there are plenty of satirical places, particularly places like a tutor or whatever, who again, make so much money from beer doesn't matter. But there if you if you are a freelance satirist, you can't afford to piss off your audience, though it's really interesting. It's also finished, which, whereas if you are a journalistic entity, if you're if you're part of a corporation that has some backbone, you actually have the money to fund that. Jan Fran 22:22 Yeah, interesting. If you have some backbone? Yeah, that's the big question. This describes Ben Jenkins 22:28 as the sub stack effect, which is, you know, that sub stack is like a newsletter service, basically, that allows you to really easily monetize, Dan Ilic 22:35 you know, there are three people in this room who know exactly what. Ben Jenkins 22:40 So basically, what happens is when when a journalist has a big following or columnist usually has been following, they go fuck this, I'm going to leave my outlet and go to substack get the money directly. And it's super easy to set up and your and your, your audience has to follow you. But what happens is because you're suddenly beholden, not to your editor, and not to your paper, but to the freaks, who give you money, it creates this crazy feedback loop where you start sort of writing more and more to please them and all of a sudden you have 20,000 bosses, and you see those numbers go up and down. So it's like this real time thing where it's like, is this what you want? Is this what you want? Is this what you want? Dan Ilic 23:15 And let me know the 372 people that pay for rational fear and Patreon completely. Excellent. All right, ladies and gentlemen and other folks in the room, please give it up for Benji. Unknown Speaker 23:28 Oh that was a great point. Lewis Hobba 23:36 And stop talking ben Jenkins started. Ben Jenkins 23:38 Yes, sir. Look, I'm a bit worried. Reading back over this as I was before you guys walked in that what follows is less an amusing sort of reflection on the nature of political satire and more a full blown mental breakdown. 10 years in the making, unleashed on a crowd who didn't ask for any of this. So please, bear with me because for over a decade in one form or another electron have worked for the chaser. That's where I started. I've worked in the field of political comedy, and only now having been asked to talk to you about it, do I reflect that I have no idea what it's for. And this troubles me and It troubles me. Because political comedy is a mode of comedy that unlike its less serious cousins in the sweeping halls of chuckle Manor seems to insist that it is in fact for something beyond the convenience of laughs goofs Japes, etc, from the comedian to the viewer, there's a worthiness to it inherent in the form that suggests that in the creation and ingestion of satire, something larger than entertainment is taking place. But here's the thing. Every time I try and articulate what that is, I start to sweat. Now there are two cliches that I've been carrying around in my head for the past decade that have been a comfort to me and they are this set. I can change minds where conventional journal journalism cannot, and satire holds the powerful to account. But when I hold these up, due to any kind of serious scrutiny, they fall apart now, just quickly, I just want to say for the purposes of this meltdown, I'm really only concerned with the kind of satire that hyperreactive news cycle style of political comedy, something happens in the world. And within a week, the satirist has released a piece on a week is actually quite long. You know, the headlines you saw there that was a day turn around the work that I do on the feed, that's four days. And whether that takes the form of a sketch or a comedian being serious behind a desk or a monologue or a cartoon or whatever giggle pot, we're putting our insights in and giggle pot is a technical term. So the reason I'm leaving out satirical novels, or films or TV shows is that they represent just a fraction of a fraction of comedy, political comedy currently being produced. And here in Australia, that fraction is basically a rounding error. And because it's really the only game in town, it's also where I've spent most of my career. So I feel qualified for a little mortified to reach the conclusion that when it comes to those two aims, the changing of minds and the holding of powerful to account, this ubiquitous style of political comedy is outside of the gratification of the maker and viewer. Useless. I also want to point out and I do feel this is very important in relation to you, not all hating me that what follows applies just as much to a lot of the stuff that I've produced in my career as it does to everybody else. So let's go Saturdaya changes minds. I want to ask you a question. When was the last time you changed your mind? About anything? No, what brand of home is to buy? Or what stocks to wear? That's something big something like how you feel about climate change, or what party you're vote for, or any of the handfuls of beliefs that make you you. This is an incredibly rare thing to happen to an adult. There's a really good book by an Australian philosopher called element Gordon Smith called stop being reasonable. And I read it a few years ago, and it planted this seed of doubt in my mind, that's the first question she asked in the book, when was the last time that you changed your mind? Because if this has happened to you, in the recent past, this kind of seismic shift in thinking on an issue that we're talking about here, I'll bet it was for something I'll bet it was because of something that happened to you, or to somebody you love, or a lengthy conversation you had, or just the long and boring chipping away at a premise until something just came loose. What I'm willing to bet didn't happen to you on the road to Damascus is that you watch the three minute sketch on the issue and completely changed your thinking. And there was a good reason why I'm skeptical about that. A lot of political comedy is terrible, like Voltaire's remark that the Holy Roman Empire wasn't holding or Roman nor an empire. The overwhelming majority of political comedy is neither political nor comedy. Topical satire has become in essence, the satire is saying the opposite of what they actually believe, but in a hat. In order to enjoy most modern political comedy, you have to already be on board with the premise from the very start, the audience needs to know that the sadder is hates the people they hate, thinks the things that they think are stupid or stupid and likes the things that they like Tom Lehrer, some of you may know one of most famous satirists in America in the olden days, he had this to say of satire, he said, the audience usually has to be with you, I'm afraid. I always regarded myself as not even preaching to the converted, I was titillating the converted. It is a deeply in curious way of processing the world around us. And what's more leaves zero chance that anyone who doesn't already think as you think will be persuaded that we're gonna be wrong here. I don't think for a moment that good satire reaches across the aisle and some sort of milk toast centrism. But what I am saying is that if we are going to have an endless churn of super partisan satire, where our ideological opponents are pantomime villains, we can also turn around and expect it to do anything but the mild titillation of the already faithful. And this is a point that I keep coming back to that modern political comedy is by its nature, deeply curious. I've said this in writings elsewhere, but one of I believe one of the only truly worthwhile things we can do with the time we're given on Earth is have a nice, long think about how that world works, and how we work and how the people in it work. Modern political comedy discourages that impulse in both the creator and the viewer stranding, both in an endless feedback loop of ever loud louder choruses of I know, right? I know, right? I know. Right? So let's just quickly move on to satire holds the powerful to account this gets repeated a lot. It's the breakfast is the most important meal of the day for political discourse. And it's a matter that I have to admit, I have been skeptical of for a while. One fairly obvious piece of evidence against this is that if the powerful truly were afraid of being held to account by satirical news programs that wouldn't voluntarily appear on quite so many of them. They wouldn't take to social media to share clips where they're lampooned accompanied by self effacing comment, like, not sure about this one, they wouldn't go they wouldn't go out of their way to get photos of themselves with the satirists. but many do. And obviously the satirist themselves were serious about business of holding these people to account they wouldn't pose for these photos. What we have is a relationship that looks less like say, look more like symbiosis than any kind of antagonism. And what's more, if it were true that a student mockery, incisive with the poison pen and all that was in fact a formidable weapon against tyranny, then given the abundance of both satire and tyranny, it shouldn't be difficult to find a real world example of this account holding taking place, but it is difficult, it's incredibly difficult, and why should they be afraid? I mean, the limits of satire as an agent of any kind of meaningful change are fairly well catalogued often by the satirist himself. To quote another long dead person when he founded the establishment Club in 1961. Peter Cook told reporters that he was hoping to modelled on those wonderful Berlin cabarets that did so much to stop the rise of Hitler. And speaking of Hitler, a segue that I really do try to avoid where possible. How did he feel about chaplains? Vicious skewering in The Great Dictator? Well, he fucking loved it. The man own two copies. And speaking about dictators, yeah. Wow. Speaking about dictators, there I go again. Donald Trump changed the satire calculation entirely. The Trump era despite breathless predictions did not prove a boon for the earnest desolating sent in America. A common explanation given was you can no longer ridicule politics because it itself had become so inherently ridiculous, in and of itself, that this was such a popular refrain always seemed faintly stupid to me, because it doesn't even intuitively passes true. Ridiculous, people are in fact quite easy to ridicule. It's right there in the name. But and here's the crucial point for ridicule to be enjoyable and satisfying. The party being ridiculed must be capable of shame. As crusty once said, The saps got to have dignity. It's often said that politicians are so hard to pin down post Trump is because we're living in a post truth universe. But that's gets it wrong. The universe we currently occupy is post shame. people who'd like to talk about the power of satire often invoke the Emperor's New Clothes where only a brave truth telling child is able to voice what the others won't. But the Emperor wears no clothes and the child has right the child, the crowd sees the truth of this and the Emperor is shamed. What Trump showed very clearly is that if the Emperor waits a second until the kid has set his pace, and then says, Yes, I do, actually, and then goes about his day with his cock and balls out a little shit doesn't really have a comeback. In closing, there's one thing that satire can do. And it's offer the audience a kind of catharsis, to release of emotion of anger or frustration of rage. And while it feels good, but here's my question. Do we really want to be venting that stuff out into the ether isn't the pressure of those feelings, what drives people to make meaningful action to take that rage and focus it on organizing to effect meaningful material change? Because here's the thing, if all we're doing here is making stuff that makes us feel smart, for people who already agree with us with no real impact on those with whom we disagree on the targets of our idea, then all we're really doing is an act of self gratification. And all it really achieves is a kind of temporary, good feeling in the form of a release. And there is a word for that. Thank you. Ranking, ranking, ranking ranking. Dan Ilic 33:22 I thought, well, that's strange. Ben Jenkins 33:27 I couldn't find my mic. Dan Ilic 33:31 Well, that's it for the show. So thanks very much for coming, everyone. That was really great. That was super, super good. Ben, I think about a lot of that stuff all the time. One of the rational fish shows we did was in Baga, we did climb a hill, Syria did a tour of climate vulnerable venues, and bigger was one of them. And it was remarkable after that show, sitting in the pub, having folks come up to us, and thank us for doing the show there because they wanted to laugh about climate change is they'd had like their houses or burned their house. There's like, it's just one of those things where folks were coming up to us in the pub and saying, oh, you know, that was so wonderful to hear jokes about that. And it truly felt for the first time in my 15 year career that we were useful. Ben Jenkins 34:12 I do think though, like, I didn't put this in because I was already speaking for 45 minutes. But the other side of catharsis is a galvanizing sense. It's the it's the other side of it. So catharsis is like, you know, from the Greek it means like to purify on purge, it's like a release of something. Whereas like the galvanizing sense is the opposite of that where it actually hardens people in a good way. It makes them stronger, and it makes them feel seen and it makes them feel powerful. So I do think that's an element of it, too, Dan Ilic 34:41 which is why we're going to Lismore to do a show it's going to be Trump is an interesting character. A lot of folks when I was in America doing satire for American, the broadcaster over there, were saying to me, Hey, you get it's got to be so good. It's got to be so good to do Trump jokes. You're so lucky Trump's in power As as people who had to make fun of Trump, did you enjoy that period caffeine? Cathy Wilcox 35:07 It was it was sort of invigorating in the first place and then exhausting in the second place because you realize that you couldn't keep up with the amount of of stuff that he was doing. You'd be initially you know, waking up extra early to see what had happened overnight and things. And then you'd be going well, I do Trump this week. Well, no, it doesn't really matter if I do Trump this week, because he'll have done he'll do something next week. I can hold off till then. I think there's Ben Jenkins 35:31 a deliberate strategy in a way I mean, like, it's always it's always hard to, like, you know, give any kind of credit to him and his inner workings. It's sort of like trying to work in a life of zebra but like, Cathy Wilcox 35:43 when octuple lies does end up making a single lie worthless, Lewis Hobba 35:48 a strategy, right? Like it was like Joby ocupado said, and he talked about chicken feed, like giving journalists chicken feed to make sure that something to nibble on. There's just like Trump was just like, fucking flog raw, like, Dan Ilic 35:59 down the throat of a ghost. There was a lot of folks that suggested that at one particular joke, one bit of satire actually turned Trump into somebody who wanted to run for president. That joke came from Barack Obama in the White House Correspondents Dinner. Let's have a look at that joke and see if you think oh, here we go. Here it is. Unknown Speaker 36:19 Donald Trump looks young tonight. Now I know that he's taken some flak lately, but no one is happier. No one is prouder to put this birth certificate matter to rest to them than Donald. And that's because he can finally get back to focusing on the issues that matter. Like did we fake the moon landing? What really happened in Roswell? And where are Biggie and Tupac? All kidding aside, obviously we all know about your credentials and breadth of experience. For example, seriously, just recently, in an episode of Celebrity Apprentice at the steakhouse, the men's cooking team did not impress the judges from Omaha Steaks. And there was a lot of blame to go around. But you Mr. Trump recognized that the real problem was a lack of leadership. And so ultimately, you didn't blame Little John or meatloaf. Unknown Speaker 37:50 You fired Gary Busey. And these are the kinds of decisions that will keep me up at night Dan Ilic 38:03 so angry so that was that was the joke. That was the joke that people said that was the joke that turd Trump to a guy that wanted to run for president and ruin America. Jan Fran 38:13 That is so hard to hear. If you watch the roast of donald trump, which I can't remember what year it happened in not too far from when he ran or decided to run for president. There's all these comedians that are like, Haha, you think you're gonna become the president? illusion or, and watching it now in retrospect, you're like, What the fuck are you clowns doing? Ben Jenkins 38:34 He was like, the complete opposite of who he was in every single way. It's quite an inspiring story. said he couldn't do it. Jan Fran 38:43 That's kind of the problem is that you actually sort of end up exalting the man while what you're trying to do is you know, hold power to account but you make him so much more powerful than if you just said nothing Ben Jenkins 38:54 we didn't want to have happen. It is Lewis Hobba 38:57 truly impressive that for once a really rich guy managed to become president. A lot of stores real sand look Dan Ilic 39:05 terrible. I'm gonna share a sketch that I dislike. I made it in 2016 before Trump was became president, and I just thought, Oh, this is a hilarious hypothetical. What if Trump did become president, and maybe this could be his White House briefing room? You know what, when President Trump says he's gonna blow up Mars, he's just joking. He's more likely to blow with Venus since that's where women are from incredibly vicious rumors about a sex tape between the First Lady Melania Trump and President Trump in the Lincoln Bedroom. I can assure you that that tape exists, and it will be available for 699. Thank you for your question. The question was, Is it true that it is legal now to ask questions at press conferences? Yes, yes. Unknown Speaker 39:58 You're going to jail. If Dan Ilic 40:02 the President will not stand by while being called a bully and a misogynist, in fact, he called the Prime Minister of England just this morning and told her to quote, watch her pretty little mouth. There you go. How did you get in? Steve? Get him out. MSNBC is in here again. All right. Really? Yeah, that was my Lewis Hobba 40:27 that was not that far off. It was a blow up Mars, but he did invent a Space Force. There was like the misogyny everywhere he did banned people from the press room. That was annoyingly prophetic. Ben Jenkins 40:41 Because Sandra Ilitch over here. Yeah. Dan Ilic 40:44 But oh, yeah, my I guess my point is like, Oh, well, I made that thinking that was hyperbole, but it obviously just wasn't it was just not for course, first year. Yeah. Next up, please get up for Kathy Wilcox. Cathy Wilcox 41:06 Hi, thank you. I'm a little unrehearsed because I'm just waiting for that muse to strike me. And I'll tell you what's happening. As soon as I see the pictures, rather than then put out an argument for whether satire is more powerful than journalism because I kind of exist somewhere on the line between those things, I suppose. Somewhere I have, I have a you know, an ID card that actually calls me a journalist. So maybe, and the workplace, they're called journalists. But, but as a satirist, and a cartoonist, obviously, it's a very dangerous job. And I want to, you know, give you an idea of some of the dangers. I mean, I'm quite apart from getting assassinated, or getting arrested and being, you know, like imprisoned and things like that by regimes like totalitarian regimes and things like that. You know, obviously, that you all know about that. That's truly dangerous. So all I can talk about is the is the thin end of that wedge, you know, the little things that the sorts of dangers that I live in my day to. Day, but you know, she kind of deserved it, because Ben Jenkins 42:27 I haven't I have a little drawing that you did for me when my wife was pregnant. Her pregnant with Moses, and I'm there too, and he got shot that might. Unknown Speaker 42:41 So I want to Jan Fran 42:43 meet him in the car park. Cathy Wilcox 42:46 Okay, well, I'm really glad that Ben has introduced the idea of me getting into the room. So we everything that happens after after now is kind of relief anyway. So um, but first of all, the thing is that, that it can be surprising because you're working, especially these days, on your own, from your own house, in your own room, and not actually even in a newsroom, and never even meeting politicians and never going to Canberra and I'm not an insider. And I'm not part of a press gallery. And I've always kind of assume because I'm not one of those sort of upfront out there, cartoonists that I'm not buddies with the politicians and I, and I kind of tell myself that they don't see what I do. So it doesn't matter what I do. The first cartoon Dan, if you'd like to bring up is, is what do we got? We've got the standard rigor. So he when Scott Morrison wanted to know who knew what about the rape of or alleged sorry, rape of Brittany Higgins in in, in an office in Parliament? Phil, I'm relying on you to get to the bottom of who in my office knew what when and then submit your findings in the usual way. And you just may see that there's a super shredder in the background there. The fill in question is one filled Gretchen's a very useful man to the Prime Minister and has been for several years he's been his, you know, his his advisor and to ice and, and he's head of Prime Minister and Cabinet and so forth. So he is the one who, you know, you heard was was tasked with doing this investigation. And here's the one you found out about some weeks, months later. In fact, he had he that he had suspended that investigation, but that nobody had really heard about it. But the weird weird thing about doing this cartoon was that the day that was published I received a phone call. I picked it it's not a number I recognize Yeah. And they're on the phone is Hello Is that Kathy Wilcox? Yes, it is. Phil Gretchen's. I had filed it had been published. Unknown Speaker 44:54 Oh, yes, I say. He said I just want Want to let you know that? Cathy Wilcox 45:03 I don't normally wear a tie? You dreaming in the cartoon with a tie? Yes, I did. And I know I'm not quite known for not wearing a tie in the shredder. Lewis Hobba 45:22 I think we all agree. Everyone knows me, who's been really keeping this very important report. It is my classic open car. Cathy Wilcox 45:32 So I said, Well, now that you mentioned it, I have to admit that when I was looking up photo reference to draw you, I did see a number of features of you without a tie. Could I just I was in a hurry. And I just assumed that the ones with the ties were just further down. more full. Yeah. Yes. He said, Well, just don't do it again. Ben Jenkins 45:57 I seem everyone in this room is rocking his signature look. Lewis Hobba 46:05 There's a cost to Tiktok dance do the gate. Dan Ilic 46:11 He said don't do it again. Was it sinister? What was the tone? Cathy Wilcox 46:14 I said, I can assure you, I will be very careful not to make that mistake again. And he said, Okay. You know, I'm only joking. Lewis Hobba 46:28 The old I'm only joking. Oh Unknown Speaker 46:30 mankini the next time. Cathy Wilcox 46:35 That was only the first time I ever drew him. So it's so happened as as mentioned, some weeks later, there was some tooing and froing and Senate estimates and so forth. And there was further question about what the Prime Minister knew. And there was further revelation that this, this inquiry had been suspended. So the prime minister hadn't had an answer to it, because, in fact, it had been suspended. And he had been told about that either. So and there were various other things that he hadn't been told about. So if we could flip to the next cartoon, which I consider to be a very good opportunity for a cartoonist who's been possibly possibly joked about with by a very powerful man by the Prime Minister, Australia's most senior public servant, just so everybody knew who I was talking about. The Secretary of the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet feel Gretchen's does not wear a tie. He told me himself after I wrongly drew him wearing a tie. Now I apologize for this cardinal sin of a cartoonist who just put themselves in a cartoon I've ever seen. You do that outside of there? I've done a few times, but it has to be for a very good reason. This was to Lewis Hobba 47:44 put himself in his car. Garfield Cathy Wilcox 47:50 recently, I thought, you know, this is an informative cartoon. Recently. The pm didn't know about Britney hignett, Higgins. Right, Mr. Gachon, suspending his inquiry into who knew what the PMO backgrounding journalist about Mr. Higgins partner, where is Phil Gachon tie Dan Ilic 48:10 is filled with the Thai Cathy Wilcox 48:13 Prime Minister with the Prime Minister around his eyes keeping short making sure that he does a follow up phone call. Did not my dad so wanted to know if he followed up on the phone as he calls you yet. I said I think he's smart enough to know not ever to call. So that was one thing to know that the person is is watching you sort of with that closeness that they can phone you on your mobile, I'd haven't given him my mobile phone. I don't know how he knows that. Ben Jenkins 48:47 Probably programmers who just tried to Cathy Wilcox 48:50 yes, those friends of mine. So. So that's one thing. And the other danger for people in this position is I would say litigious politicians. You might remember that time that the then Attorney General was in a spot of bother over over allegations of what he had done in his in his care for a youth. And when he came out and finally made this speech, and it was was much waited for moment and click click, click, click click all the all the cameras are going and he's there and the lights on him and lots of close ups to his face. And Is he is he acting? Is it for real is what's he saying here? So I felt like I wanted to act him there. So for me to have to disprove something that didn't happen. And I love that isn't that this is since since Trump to say didn't happen. It's just like, it's like a little kid gone. It's gone away. Unknown Speaker 49:52 Mummy gone away. It didn't happen. So something that didn't happen would be the end of the hall. Oh, Australia, thank you. Cathy Wilcox 50:05 Secret trials partners and appointments to trust integrity, body matters of rule of law, if you're really gonna go looking at it, and he goes, questions the rule of law. So, it has been observed that I am a frustrated actor when I put myself in my in my work. However, this had to get past the lawyers who occasionally are given, you know, to look at my cartoon by the by the editor that I submitted to, I have enormous free rein, I submit my cartoons, mostly I don't hear Boo from anybody about it, except maybe a thanks for sending it or something like that from the sub editor. But I don't have to run ideas past an editor, I don't have to, you know, submit five, five ideas to somebody to see if they're funny, I get to just do this stuff. And it's only when something's usually legally contentious, or in very poor taste, which of course, I would never do that, that they, you know, have to have made you question something. So this one got run past the lawyers. And in the old days, there was a lawyer at the Herald who you hoped that he was the guy who was on on the night when your cartoon got lowered, because it was very easy. And he went very wide margins and you know, he, he'd wave anything through these days, we have much more sort of nervous nervous lawyers, and they're shared by by both the Herald and the age, so you can't kind of go well, this one said it's okay. So to argue with that one, so I'm, there's only me now to argue for things with the lawyers. So I argued, that are what we know they're called they're called sways they point their complaint was valuable. I am suggesting I'm suggesting, especially in in frame six, hear that he is insincere, that he is just acting. So I've made it look theatrical Dan Ilic 51:58 to the people that podcast, it's a picture of Cathy Wilcox 52:02 bowing is doing a very grandiose Bow. Thank you thanking people for hearing him out there. And the the lawyers said, No, that is suggesting that he's, he's not sincere. Wow. Anyway, I went away. And first of all, I said, I argued, and I said, in my cartoon, I'm not saying any more than our own journalists have written their own opinion writers and so forth. They have all, you know, question this thing. And also, I'm just using his words. And I'm, you know, and so that little bow is the only kind of affectation in a way, but I said, But if I'll take the bow, would you be okay. So, here is the cartoon all the time, except framsticks has been changed. And they went, Okay, we're okay with that. And I thought, wow, I want against the lawyer. Dan Ilic 52:59 This time, he's got his hand on his heart. Cathy Wilcox 53:03 There, but that is some but it's not so much that I had that I want against the lawyers. It's that that the lawyers or the newspapers, the mastheads was so intimidated by this, this guy who has proven himself to be litigious and was in the process of suing the ABC and all that sort of thing. But they were twice shy about doing anything that might draw your attention and and you know, cause him to come up anyway, nobody, nobody got hurt. Nobody got sued. And I didn't hear any more about that. But Unknown Speaker 53:37 he got sued in the air No, I Ben Jenkins 53:42 honestly, if you fall over and chip in your driveway, see the ABC. Cathy Wilcox 53:48 So that's those are a couple of the dangers, therefore being watched, being potentially sued by litigious politicians now, what else do we got? Oh, yes, doing things about Russia, or Israel, or a few. There are a few like really, really delicate pieces of ground, but I have come to understand the the reaction I will get when I do something, do a cartoon that is about one of those difficult areas. And on this case, this was like, you know, like, I could have timed my watch, set my watch by this one, because I know now from years of occasionally doing things about Russia and Putin and all the rest of it that you don't get told, Oh, you're an ignorant auto, you know, you shouldn't do that. You're wrong. You got you get told. Oh, I'm really sorry that you're so ignorant, how embarrassed you should really educate yourself. You must feel so embarrassed to be so stupid. One low IQ who is normally so smart. So they do this little manipulating thing where you feel like an idiot. So you have been successfully propagandized. Cathy, there is another study scientists Don't worry that you need to make yourself aware of. Well, that was only a couple of days what was it? The third I think it was the next day that the same same day, the next day that the invasion happened. Yeah. So So you know, I think he was wrong and also I know now not to worry about that. That sort of intimidating response because it is very formulaic and and it comes at you from a usually a fairly organized lobby although that might. The final danger is whimsy. Do not engage in whimsy at all costs, not on Twitter, not when you're expected to be a political commentator ever stop to think how amazing birds nests are. I mean, if we tried to do that we'd never get it through counsel for a start. And the structural engineering so potentially three to four full grown magpies in twigs and fluff and bird poo cantilevered. Sure. That's the that's the submission to council. Yes, I do. Actually. I think every person who experiences homelessness thinks about the natural rights to make a safe mess anywhere on earth without it being illegal or the land owned by someone else missed and peeps have no idea about the trauma of being denied the right to exist. I was schooled I can tell my fuck you. Jan Fran 56:20 Do you know what the red flag in this tweet though? Is Kathy? The Globe? Anyone that's got emojis? No. You're gonna get Lewis Hobba 56:36 everything about everyone getting abused on Twitter is that there's so many. We simply don't have time to go through all of them. Is that because I work at Triple J, we've got a text line. And so like before, everyone has been like, I'm getting a bit abused. I'm like, welcome to the fucking Unknown Speaker 56:55 Welcome. Lewis Hobba 56:57 Welcome to the nightmare. Welcome to the seventh circle. Jan Fran 57:01 Can I tell you the most delightful time that I got abused on social media after posting one of my videos to Facebook, which is really just the you know, Boomer brain graveyard at this point, but I posted it and you know, a couple of people commented whatever. And then someone underneath the video, commented, go, we'll wait. You're on my page. I clicked on the profile. And it was an older woman from Tasmania that really enjoyed bird watching. Unknown Speaker 57:39 He got to watch with a bird watching he Jan Fran 57:42 posted. And I thought I had to do this and the name was Mary. And I said, Hi, Mary. You're on my page. I can't go away. I'd like to you can. And then I left it and close the laptop. That was the tone that I had intended it in my mind. And I came back maybe an hour and a half later. And there was all of this vitriol against for Mary. I did it. And I started to pile on. Unwittingly, unknowingly completely unintentionally. Call it off. I deleted the whole thing. And I was close to deleting my entire Facebook. Dan Ilic 58:32 You're a better actor and governance professional than Mark Zuckerberg. Jan Fran 58:38 Yes, I should run Facebook. Cathy Wilcox 58:41 Yep, no, I've done that too. I've deleted a tweet that has provoked a polemical even though it didn't wasn't meant to because yeah, likewise, it's Dan Ilic 58:51 very the creators on stage not created anything that's dangerous like Kathy. Ben Jenkins 58:57 I mean, I haven't done any damage to pull Mary if I get death threats, sometimes fun. It's just it's from my son used to give him apricot and lead each week until six. But it's like, I don't know. I think it's a guy. It's it's really different because I'm just like, your domain like, but there was one tweet I did, which was like, sometimes I'm just like, I'm having to go today. I'm just gonna see how many people I can piss off. And it was like right after Boris Johnson had gotten COVID. And a lot of people were like, good. And then there's all this like weird hand wringing was coming up. Well, you might not agree with him, but he's a human being. And then and then there was like, That couple of days later, Kim Jong Un was reported as ill. And I just like, I just Yeah, yeah, I just tweeted like, how have you feel about his politics? He's a human being I think we can all like, come together on metal. And it was like it was just it was deliberately just, it was just sort of on the edge of sincere that people would think I was. Unknown Speaker 1:00:10 You tweet all the time. Ben Jenkins 1:00:13 This didn't get me death threats. But this made Twitter unusable for me for about for about a day was during the Oscars a couple of years ago, I tweeted, this is all well and good. But wouldn't it be wonderful if we gave awards to books? Unknown Speaker 1:00:27 And a mixture of Ben Jenkins 1:00:30 people being like, Oh, actually, I appreciate the sentiment, but we do give books. Because I was born I just be like, No, we don't be like No, we, we do the Nobel prize goes to literature. And I'm like, that's for science. It's so sad. I have a full time job and a child. That won't give me death threats. And I told my wife because she was like, I saw this thing. Why did you do that? And I was like, oh, no, honey, but it's funny, because look at these people who say they're gonna kill me. She was like, What the fuck? And I was like, oh, that's online, Jan Fran 1:01:03 getting a slew of like, when I did the first season and crushing everything last year. It's like, I don't really check a lot of my social media. But then, you know, once you start getting notifications from people with wraparound sunglasses, and Australian flag profiles in in their Twitter, you're like, oh, something's gone horribly wrong. And it turns out that there was a YouTuber that made a video about me, and you know, it was like, ABC leftist journaux you know, like sucking on the government T yada, yada, yada. And I kind of just I've watched the video just to make sure that there was nothing that was like, there was no call to violence or anything towards me. But I got a an unrelenting barrage on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook, in my email, I'm not sure how they found my email, but I started getting emails Dan Ilic 1:01:53 tweeted it when I started to directly talk to Jen. Jan Fran 1:01:58 That's how they got the email. And the thing is, it's like, there is nothing that the ABC can do. They were like, well, you could just block people. Ben Jenkins 1:02:07 I'm aware of the Navy. No, but Jan Fran 1:02:11 that's I mean, that's kind of like partly the problem of Dan Ilic 1:02:13 did you feel your life was at risk at any point? I didn't feel like Jan Fran 1:02:17 my life was at risk really. But I did feel like most of the people online when you know you say something that they don't particularly like and something like this happens they'll vent online and then they'll fuck off but sometimes I think to myself What if there is just that one really hectic person who doesn't fuck off and for whatever reason has a been his bonnet about you and this thing that you said and did and then finds your address online and then shows up like that is not a ridiculous thing to think so that's that's the reality and the fact is that it doesn't matter whether you're a freelancer, whether you work for a legacy media organization, there's nothing that can be done here. I've emailed YouTube and they've come back and Ben been like, Oh, and this was for a different matter with a completely different person they like you know, nothing broke our rules of engagement or whatever it is, so there's really nothing that we can do. Well, Jen, Dan Ilic 1:03:08 we're going to surprise you side stage we have the only time I've ever done anything kind of remotely sort of dangerous through comedy was I got I got to pull it from Manus Island making where the bloody hell are you sketch with refugees on Manus Island. Just pay for that now and we'll move on Unknown Speaker 1:03:33 you stopped the boat. You put us in a prison in a tropical island. In 60s, I had a lot of time thing. Mostly about my mother's passport. Unknown Speaker 1:03:44 If you want to go by boat. Unknown Speaker 1:03:48 By plane Unknown Speaker 1:03:51 we learned some Australia and culture. This guy this shit didn't go after six years we've been waiting to be processed Prime Minister's combo so. Dan Ilic 1:04:22 Everyone, please give epogen friends. Jan Fran 1:04:27 Thanks so much. I mean, turns out that I'm probably going to build a little bit on Ben's entire premise that satire does not change hearts and minds and that it does not necessarily hold the powerful to account but I'm gonna go a little bit further. And you know, write a little bit of a love letter, a manifesto, perhaps to make people entitled journalists and comedians should maybe think about shutting the fuck up a little bit more. So sometimes people call me a journalist slash comedian, which I think is a nice way of them saying that I'm a bit shoot at both. That's okay. That's fine. It's you know, it's anytime anyone uses the slash that's kind of how you know, right? Like if you go to an Italian slash Chinese Oh, you're not getting either. You're getting dysentery but in this context, I think the slash is important right journalist slash comedian because it means that I have yielded both the pen and the joke. And I can tell you unequivocally right here, ladies and gentlemen, that when it comes to changing hearts and minds, and when it comes to making the world a better place, they are both garbage. They are utterly fucking useless. No one's life has been improved by a strongly worded op ed. No one wakes up in the cancer ward and says, Oh my God, you know what changed my mind. Do you know what cured me? Jen friends Walkley award winning opinion, the Frank Winnie 91. Love the guy in the cancer ward. I mean, no one wants to be held hostage only for the cops to show up, surround the building and pull out their pawns. There's times there's you know, we can see here and we can talk about whether the joke is mightier than the pen whether the pen is mightier than the joke. You know what he's mightier than both of them subsonic missiles. And I can tell you that nobody is worried about Vladimir Putin dropping by arrow on cares. This is truly the real world. And I think that terrible things happen in the real world. You know, the planet is heating up US inflation is the highest that it has been in 40 years. Clive Palmer survived COVID Even though he is the nation's underlying health condition. If we cannot tackle all these things purely with jokes and pens, unless we use the pen of some sort of stabbing, an ambush Clive as he's burning an effigy of Mark McGowan and a Red Rooster carpark, as he tends to do. So I would go so far as to say that we are perhaps bear with me wielding the pen, and the joke a little bit too much journalists, and comedians. And we have this idea that it's there to hold people to account. And it's there to change hearts and minds. And I constantly hear this refrain that sunlight is the best disinfectant. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, right? It's a bit of a sort of a cliche thing to say about sunlight. So I'll just throw another cliche thing to say about sunlight, which is that it can also make things grow. And so when we think about what we're actually putting in the sun, over and over and over again, if your intention is to disinfect it, and it ends up growing, while suddenly you have quite a big problem on your hands, everyone has a big problem on their hands. And the other thing that I would caution is that when we talk about yielding jokes or yielding pins, he turns out anyone can actually yield a joke or a pen. Everyone has an opinion now, and some of them are award winning. Actually can't secure just because it hasn't happened yet. But I truly think that everyone being or having the access to be an armchair expert, is one of the most terrible things to happen to society currently, jokes and pens are meant to help us understand the world around us right so that we can make it better but the world is very complicated and nuanced on the internet is like a pregnant ladies vagina. No matter how hard you try, you just can't see it Dan Ilic 1:09:19 really wondering when credible to the Patreon members Jan's trying to look at it. Jan Fran 1:09:32 They're there, it's just obscured. So there should be some ground rules perhaps in place to determine who should wield the pen and who should wield the joke and under what circumstances if you are someone who wants to talk about ivermectin, but you can't spell ivermectin you don't get to talk about ivermectin, no pan for you. Oh, no horses either. I say that it's just one suggestion this is totally off the top of my head. I've thought about it fleetingly. But I think it's a good idea. I think that we writers and journalists and jokesters, I think that we should take a backseat in this moment to a group of people who are currently at their most fuckable. Scientists. This is their window. We need science now, in my view, more than ever, especially because we have a prime minister, who as we know, loves to take policy advice from God. And from God's one true son, Lachlan. Science is what will change hearts and minds science is mightier than the pen is mightier than the joke. Art is what will change hearts and minds mightier than the pen mightier than the joke? Do you want to know what the highest form of knowledge is? It's empathy. I read that on the back of a tampon imagine anymore. Imagine if we were obscuring all of these potential forms of knowledge, without jokes, and with articles, and with our opinions, and with our tweets, and with our commentary. What is it that we are doing to the world? It's true that, you know, you can say the joke is mightier than the pen. You can say the pen is mightier than the joke. It doesn't matter. There are things that are mightier than both of them, including hypersonic missiles. As it turns out Unknown Speaker 1:11:59 Louis harbor Lewis Hobba 1:12:04 we have a little bit long, I assume, because I really need to pay I don't know. That's that's pretty much how I can tell the running time of these things. So I'll I'll crack through it. But look, the reason I think, just to wrap it all up, that setters and look, I'll say setters and comedians, and I'm referring to us, and you might be like, I don't even think of myself as a satirist. I mostly ask people where they've been stuck on radio, you know, out there doing the good stuff. I'm not, I'm not John Oliver, I'm an idiot. So just accept that I'm going to use that term broadly. And let's rock let's move past it so we can all pay. But the reason I think that satirists are the new journalists is simple. We can't exist without journalists, like 100% of jokes written by political comedians get written because they read a story in the news and the news is written by journalists, like we're lazy. We're too lazy to do it. And to show how lazy we are. For the next little while. I'm just going to make the same point over and over again, using slightly different metaphors. satirise aren't disrupting journalism were leeching off it were a pilot fish attached to a shark, where the cackling hyenas picking up the bones of politicians left behind by lions. If journalists are a majestic giraffe, using its height to scan for danger way or a silly bird that lands on its head. Forced to look wherever the giraffe is bull. Canadians are the last person in the human centipede. Just taking the research already digested and shut out by reporters and editors eating it up and then shooting it out again in a slightly different way. It's still shit. But our shit was shot by a human centipede. And that's gonna get clicks. Like journalists have to do a lot of stuff that is important and boring. Comedians want to do stuff that is frivolous and exciting. Like Can anyone here be bothered learning what an interest rate is? Like that? No, there's no such thing as a financial comedian. It would be cruel to teach us about money. Only for us to learn. We'll never get in. Like the grunt work of political journalism is getting things on the record like that's, that's the grunt stuff. That's the important stuff, like going to boring press conferences, making boring calls, getting people to say stuff, like in 2008 when a journalist got Scott Morrison on the record saying that he was in favor of a government supporting people buying houses with a housing equity scheme that was boring in 2008. And in 2017, when he said it again, and then he still supported the idea. It was boring then. But in 2022, when he attacks labor for the exact same idea, it suddenly become something, right? Something that gets the mouths of the little human centipede very excited. But good things take time, even hypocrisy, and time is something that journalists can afford to have. And look, I am not deifying journalists. They're normal people. And in fact, they're worse than normal people. Because their job is to be annoying, ideally, to people in power, that comedians or people pleasers. applause is our nourishment. Like, it's the base of our food pyramid. And so I don't think comedians are incapable of doing the work of journalists. But we're not financially motivated to piss people off like, we get paid by the ticket. So I think journalists have an employer and an employer who pays them more, the better they are at annoying people. It's the opposite of what comedians do. Like I would say the ABC has at times paid comedians to be annoying, and not in the way they pay me to be annoying, which is just by accident. But it's more of a sort of deliberate choice to pay comedians to be annoying on shows like Chase or or to nightly, which you talked about already. Very few people in comedy choose to make audiences happy by annoying powerful people on a freelance basis. It's just not a smart move. And so my point is really, that you you can't have political satire without journalists. But you can very easily have journalism, without satirists, because we're not going to do the research. And you know what? Sometimes you just need someone to look down the barrel of a camera and say Princess Diana is dead and you need to notify that out with damn lady died. That's some topical stuff talk on us was run by comedians, it would be the comedy central roast, if 60 minutes was one run by comedians in a go for 50 minutes, and we charged for the fallout. If current affair was run by comedians, it'd be a bit better. Like comedians aren't useless. I mean, we're not as bad as opinion writers. But mostly, we're just putting a shiny new package on an existing product and selling it as something new. And that is why we often end up selling it for free. Dan Ilic 1:17:48 Well, now comes the most important part of the evening, we get to decide whether jokes are more important than journalism. Ben Jenkins 1:17:56 This could really go either way. Really strong points. Dan Ilic 1:18:01 We're gonna tick a box here and send it off to the Governor General. So let's see if y'all want to, I don't know maybe want to Should we do a red text? Are you going to get a black text or sorry, sorry. All right. So let's raise your hand or actually because there's a podcast by round of applause, our jokes more important than journalism. You didn't and conversely, is journalism more important than joke's? On the panel here, just raise your hands is jokes more important than gentlemen, if Ben Jenkins 1:18:39 I can flip it? Yes. Cathy Wilcox 1:18:45 One counter counter case, yeah. Okay. I don't know if we've got time for this just that my dad reckons, and he's a conservative old bloke. And he only gets the newspaper The Herald because I'm in and he says, if I stopped drawing for the Herald, he will cancel his subscription. That is how powerful the sad guy is Unknown Speaker 1:19:07 very specific. On what I'm hearing is Dan Ilic 1:19:13 nepotism rules over. So one more time jokes is jokes better than journalism? Is journalism better than jokes? Unknown Speaker 1:19:26 Journalism Dan Ilic 1:19:27 is far more powerful than journalism. Unknown Speaker 1:19:32 All right. Dan Ilic 1:19:33 Let's send this to the Governor General. Please. Sara will you please post this immediately to David Hurley? Unknown Speaker 1:19:44 Please give it up. Thank you, Sarah. You going to take this as quick as you can? Take it as quick as you can to the Governor General Sarah I'm Dan Jenkins got the Blue Dogs dealing with Josiah. take you to the Judas Nielsen Institute for having a drug mods and our Patreon supporters. Until next Unknown Speaker 1:20:24 time A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Jan Fran Has Issues - Ep 8 - Grace Tame + Elizabeth Watson Brown
🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear 📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/ 🎟️ SEE OUR LIVE SHOW: https://comedy.com.au/tour/a-rational-fear-live/ For the FINAL Jan Fran Has Issues we speak to former Australian of the Year Grace Tame and the new Greens MP for the seat of Ryan (Brisbane) - Elizabeth Watson Brown. Also, join Veronica Milsom, Mark Humphries, Gabbi Bolt, Lewis Hobba, Dan Ilic, Sami Shah and Paul McDermott for 10 Years* of A Rational Fear. June 4th Sydney Opera House. (*Runtime approx. 90min)! Produced by F+K media 🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear If you enjoyed this please drop us a review on Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/a-rational-fear/id522303261 TRANSCRIPT: Unknown Speaker 0:00 This episode is supported by the jib foundation. final results are still being tallied. But one thing is crystal clear the 2022 election has delivered a seismic shift in Australia's political landscape. It's a difficult night for Liberals and Nationals around the country is nights like this always. Unknown Speaker 0:22 Tonight, the Australian Robbie McGreggor 0:24 people have voted for change. Unknown Speaker 0:29 Your Excellency, and present the honorable Anthony Albanese is to be sworn in to the office of Prime Minister Unknown Speaker 0:36 is Up up and away for Anthony Albanese for his de vous on the international stage at the quad Leaders Summit in Japan. Robbie McGreggor 0:43 Jiang Fran has issues breaking down the election one issue at a time brought to you by rational fear. Jan Fran 0:55 Oh my goodness. Welcome to the final episode of Jan Fran has issues we did it Daniel. Dan Ilic 1:05 Jeanette, I'm so excited. I can't believe it. Have you have you sufficiently gotten through all of the issues now that we are out the back end of the election? I have any issues left? Jan Fran 1:15 Oh, my I am completely still riddled with issues, both political and personal. Remember, at the very first episode, you said that you could act as my shrink. It begins now. My do Dan Ilic 1:28 all right. As long as I don't have to act as your midwife, because that's what I'm most stressed about. Because you're about to I'm pretty impressed. You managed to hold your little your little daughter in there for her funeral for a few more weeks while we got this this this podcast out my Little Jan Fran 1:46 Bear Bear. Yeah, no. still firmly inside. I've given it permission to exit now that this podcast is done and now that the election is done. So we'll see how Dan Ilic 1:57 excellent very diligent, Jan, very diligent I am be, you're gonna be a great mother vanquishing discipline like that. Jan Fran 2:05 So look, I'm not going to go over the election results too much, because it's been about a week since Saturday happened. But my God, it was massive. So many big wins so many huge surprises. We're gonna get to the two that we thought were particularly interesting in just a second. But before we go to those two big issues, let's discuss, let's, let's do the thing that we love to do over the course of the week and take issue with something. What are you taking issue with this week, Daniel, our final week of the party. Dan Ilic 2:34 I'm taking issue with this incredible Op Ed from Chris Yeoman in the Sydney Morning Herald and the headline made me burst out laughing in the cafe as I turned the paper, the headline was the agonizing birth of a new era. As, as someone who doesn't shy away from partisan chips, Chris, Yeoman definitely would have had to have an agonizing birth of this new era, because somehow he managed to keep his eyes closed as to what the independents were doing in the world out there. So it made me laugh. It made me laugh out so loud, laugh out loud, so much. There was a guy to two tables next to me, he turned to me and said, Oh, sounds like a good one. I said, it is. It's really funny. Jan Fran 3:17 So what was what was the what was the theme? What was the Op Ed about? Dan Ilic 3:21 The Op Ed was essentially that both major parties are bound to go through enormous soul searching and which is absolutely true. But he doesn't actually admit that climate change was the reason why these independents exist. He said this was clearly a referendum on the likeability of Scott Morrison. That was, that was what he pinned the whole election on. And like when you see a half a party disintegrate because they want climate action. Yeah, didn't even bother to acknowledge that this is a guy who can't acknowledge climate change is happening. This is a guy who can't acknowledge that, that renewable energy actually works. So this made me laugh out. So Jan Fran 3:57 that's so weird, because it is. I mean, obviously, it was a major part of why the election went the way that it went. But I like to call this crossbench the fuck around and find out crossbench. Around for 15 years on climate policy, and give us nothing but climate inaction, you're gonna find out that there's only a certain degree to which you can push the Australian people before they push back. And this was it. Yeah. Dan Ilic 4:20 And it's something we will we'll talk with our guests about, but it certainly feels like the adults are in the room, you know? Yeah. Finally, the mums have come to Parliament to sort us out. Jan Fran 4:29 Yeah, my, the thing that I would like to take issue with this week is, is and look, I'm just going to preface that far be it for me to defend Peter Dutton, which I don't usually do anyone who knows me knows that. However, on this occasion, I'm just I'm going to choose to do that because of some commentary made by one. Tanya Plibersek. about the way that Peter Dutton looks. Take a listen. This is what she said on radio this week. Unknown Speaker 4:55 Well, I think there'll be a lot of children who've watched a lot of Harry Potter films who will be very frightened of what they're seeing on TV at night. That's for sure. Well, what you're saying he looks strange, it looks odd. unsane looks a bit like Voldemort. Jan Fran 5:13 Ah, that wasn't nice. Dan Ilic 5:16 That smacks of someone who's just having too much adrenaline through their system. Jan Fran 5:21 Yeah, I heard that. And I was like, Oh God, I kind of did a bit of an Iraq because I'm like, you know, I just I think let's just let's, let's stay away from the way that people look, because that's a downhill trajectory for me. If you start pointing the finger at who's fog? And who's not in Parliament? Yeah. You know, Dan Ilic 5:40 yeah, there'll be like, there will be no thing. Like if we've only got 10 fingers each as a species. It's very difficult. The other thing is Jan Fran 5:48 I kind of I reckon she knew exactly what she was doing. Cuz she can't, she said that and like anyone who hears that he's gonna go, oh, yeah, I guess he kind of does look a bit more, you know what I mean? And that's gonna, Dan Ilic 6:01 I mean, it's also cheap. It's also basically riffing on a meme that's been going around the internet, ever since Peter Dutton has been in office. Really, what you want to say is he's going to move from a regular potato to becoming a sweet potato. That's what you want to be. That's the transition we're looking for. That's what we need to use. today. I was really happy myself when I was talking about that. Jan Fran 6:24 Maybe, maybe, maybe it's coming. Maybe it's coming. She did apologize. I should preface that she apologized unreservedly, but you know, damage is done. Dan Ilic 6:31 And also you shouldn't be using copyrighted characters. Because otherwise, you know, JK Rowling is going to come down there and sue you. Robbie McGreggor 6:40 Jam has issues. So, Jan Fran 6:44 so many interesting things happened on Saturday, I'm trying to work out what it is that I particularly want to talk about on the potty. And we've decided that there were two sort of things that really stood out for us, Dan one, the so called women's vote, not just the vote, but women running as candidates. Dan Ilic 7:01 Yeah, women women can completely deserting the major parties, women running as independents. This is a huge, huge moment for women in Australia. Jan Fran 7:11 I think this parliament will have a record number of women representing Australia, both in the Lower House and in the upper house. That is extraordinary. Dan Ilic 7:23 Yeah. And in the upper house, I think it's more and more women than men in the upper house as well. Jan Fran 7:26 Yeah, exactly. And the other thing that we wanted to talk about was I know everyone's talking about the TEALS like tail tail is the color of the election, but there is another color. There is another wave on the horizon, my friend. What were we Dan Ilic 7:39 talking orange? Okay, we're not talking aubergine aubergine. We're not talking sunny side up, which is the color of my kitchen. Jan Fran 7:50 My dude we're talking green, the green have had a record victory. This election. They are on track. They haven't picked it up yet. We're recording on Friday. So with that may have happened. But they've got three seats in the lower house. They may pick up another one which will give them four seats in the lower house. Dan Ilic 8:09 Yeah. And what's what's extraordinary is that the seats they picked up are in Queensland, Queensland. That is that is epic. That is the epic story of, of this election that climate bears is climate as the big story. Women is the big story. And independents are the big story. It's a huge, huge, huge election. Jan Fran 8:28 Did you ever think that Queensland was going to be greens heartland? Because if they did three seats, which they picked up Ryan and Griffis and they're vying for Brisbane, it's, it's great heartland. Dan Ilic 8:41 Yeah. In Brisbane goes, I'm moving to Brisbane baby. They're my people. Jan Fran 8:47 So coming up on today's show two wonderful guests for you. We're going to start with the legend herself. What a way to finish the final episode of the podcast. Grace Haim is joining us talking about the women's vote. And whether her side I brought down the pm she's a lot more humble than I am. I'm giving her full credit. And then we're going to talk to Elizabeth Watson Brown who won the seat of Ryan in Brisbane. She's a Greens candidate. She's heading to Canberra baby. Dan Ilic 9:17 Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah. Jan Fran 9:20 Well, without any further ado, why don't we bring on our first guest Grace time. Welcome to the podcast Grace team. What a pleasure to have you on the last episode of Jan Fran has issues after this hectic election. What did you think of the result? Well, Grace Tame 9:39 I thought it was pretty awesome. Dan Ilic 9:44 Can I share the message that I sent you and your your reply to Jen? Yeah. Oh, gosh. As the results are coming in, I said amazing. Fuckit eBuy. And then Grace team replied, who's frowning now ball have Grace Tame 10:12 anything to do with the agenda at all? Dan Ilic 10:14 So how did you feel like race talk? Talk us through your night? What were you doing tennis a picture of how you were taking it all in? Grace Tame 10:20 Well, Max and I had snuggled ourselves up on the couch. One of the things that was really empowering and hopeful to me as someone who's been a lifetime swing voter, and someone who votes with their conscience, and isn't, isn't, despite what the media and a lot of you know, critics of mine say, you know, is that it isn't about party politics, like one of the things that's really hopeful to me is that we've got this, like, different sort of mood, we're at least moving towards a slightly different structure, as opposed to something that's that's purely about this two party system. Dan Ilic 10:57 What excites you about that new structure? And and how you could see politics rollout in Australia? Grace Tame 11:02 Obviously, we've had independence before Simon Holmes, a court who is sort of saying on an episode of q&a, I think it was last year, you know, he was saying, oh, like, How good would be if we just had two or three, you know, climate, climate focused independents, and, you know, we've got 11. And, you know, the greens had their best result yet, we've got the, the most indigenous representation that we've ever had, we've also a 57%, female majority in the Senate. Now, certainly, we've got a long way to go, in terms of actually reflecting the truth of the diversity of our nation and of the community that elected these representatives. But we're getting a little bit closer to reflecting the diversity and inclusion, the values of the community that elected our leaders and, and sort of breaking down these myths of what what really governance and leadership should be. And I think, because, you know, a lot of the things that we're conditioned to believe about society, and what really we need in order to create order, and structure and 40. A lot of those things are often actually just constructs that are, you know, manmade Jan Fran 12:18 ideas. Yeah, they're not inherent, they're not Grace Tame 12:20 inherent. And, you know, there there are some members of the commentariat, perhaps, at the older, white male end of the spectrum, who will tell you, you know, oh, this is not gonna work is just gonna be a scammer. Wow. And, you know, well, let's, that remains to be seen. Let's see how it goes. But I actually think that, you know, and labor still has the majority, like crying out loud. And let's just, let's obviously see how it goes. And yeah, there have been a lot of ambitious commitments made early on, you know, that Uluru statement and the entirety the respective work report and climate action and other such, you know, pretty ambitious moves in a pretty tenuous time globally, as well as nationally. So it'll be interesting to see what actually comes of a lot of those promises. But certainly, I think that, like, let's give it a crack. And I'd say what happens, Jan Fran 13:22 like lots of people are talking about, you know, the so called women's vote, which, like, women are not a homogenous entity, so to speak. But there were, you know, a record number of women elected into Parliament this week. So both women running and also women voting, we don't exactly have the stats broken down by gender for this election. But we know that like, over a period of three decades, you know, women have kind of been slowly abandoning like the coalition and the Liberal Party. And since the last election, that sort of ramped up a lot. Did you kind of expect the Liberals to get such a battering from women this election? And do you reckon that you had anything to do with that? Did your side i bring down the PM, that's what I'm trying to ask. Grace Tame 14:11 And I think, I mean, there are lots of circuit breaker moments. You know, and I think it's, it's all it's all part of it, but I mean, to you know, it was it was everybody who got out there and did, you know made their contribution? You think about what, what what it took to to take away that government, it was really just everyone getting out and writing numbers on a piece of paper. But that's what was that's what it was, and like yeah, aside, I, but that was a circuit breaker moment. It was, it was showing people that, you know, like you can actually frown in the face of the prime minister, and nothing will happen. The world won't end. You know, I won't blow up. For me as someone who is autistic and it's actually really struggled to Do you know like, like, I can't, if something is inauthentic, I really struggle to fake it around that I like see straight through it. So you know, it's very hard, you know, when, again, when the media goes, oh, you know, like, Oh, you're so lucky and endless, like, Yes, I am, in a lot of ways I've had a good life. But also, like, there's a lot that there's a lot more layers to that. But one of the things sort of, like, the point that I'm trying to make is, I suppose that what I saw throughout my life, and the way that I lived it is that one of the things that enables these cultures to persist is that people really just allow a lot of stuff that, you know, it could all it all it sometimes takes is just to standing up and making one small gesture. Yeah. And there's this, I talked about it in the last few days, because one of the things that really contributed to this election was a huge part of it, is this crisis of narrative manipulation in Australia that permeates the media landscape, you know, where it's just subtle things, but really, the cumulative effect of them is, is like grooming. And it's like falsehoods, like lies are being sold to us as facts, you know, and like, you know, disinformation is being masked, disguised as controversy softened, as you know, you know, normalize them like, and that's how this hate campaign that was, you know, that was driven by the Liberal Party was really allowed to run. Jan Fran 16:44 Yeah, yeah. But it's like what you were sort of talking about, though, Grace. It's like, the language is just couch, it's softened. You know, it's like, it's not like, Oh, I'm definitely saying that this happened. I'm just bringing up a question. And it's couched in like asking questions, or, as you say, controversy, which has the same kind of impact. Dan Ilic 17:04 And I feel like there's previous government was so good at wearing down the media as well, actually bullying the media to a point where they tried to get narrative their own way through sheer force, through the AFP raids on news.com and ABC and things like that, as well as just constantly bullying the media into submission around things like climate and stuff like that as well. Like, if this was a completely toxic government that totally disassembled the Fourth Estate, soften the fourth estate. Well, you wonder, Grace Tame 17:36 you wonder about in the you know, because, you know, I don't know if you've read what Malcolm Turnbull had written about his, his experience of or his insights into the relationship that Donald Trump had with Rupert Murdoch, and how deferential Donald Trump was to Rupert Murdoch. And you wonder it so you wonder about, who was deferential to, to whom, in the case of, you know, the Liberal government, to the priests, like the previous government here, you know, you wonder who differs to whom? Dan Ilic 18:15 Yeah, I mean, even going right back to when Scott Morrison was immigration minister, the, like, the banning of reporting of boat arrivals, like the banning of reporting, like Jan Fran 18:26 Yeah, it was just it was it was sold as suddenly we heard the phrase on water matters, and we don't talk about on water matters. But of course, on water matters was just a phrase that was made up by Scott Morrison to mean something, when in fact, it means nothing. It just is a way of saying we can't we're not going to be talking about boats coming here. Because, Grace Tame 18:46 like the gas, the gas lit recovery, what does that even mean? Jan Fran 18:51 Yeah, I mean, do you think things will? Or do you? Well, I'll just ask you the question more generally, like what do you hope will be different under elbow? Grace Tame 19:00 I mean, I just hope there's going to, I hope there's going to be more transparency, which I really do think we're already seeing, you know, if it's just the same, you bet you bet your ass I'll be just Jan Fran 19:12 Oh, I saw your tweet about elbow when he spoke to Alan Jones. Oh, I saw that. Grace Tame 19:17 Yeah, that's just I mean, that's just silly. Like, Dan Ilic 19:20 Grace, can we get you a new title? Can we get you Australian bullshit detector of the year? Is that gonna Jan Fran 19:24 be kind of looking forward, like ideally, is there anything that you feel like the top three things that you would really like to see implemented by this Labor government? Grace Tame 19:40 I mean, climate action would benefit everyone. But I think also to like, you know, when we when we think about and I think about, like, I think about our first peoples I mean, we they've been here first. And I think that Albert got it right in that was the first thing that he addressed right off the block. You know, his order of priorities was pretty dead on. Dan Ilic 20:05 He could just walk right over to Malcolm Turnbull's house and say, Hey, Malcolm, can you open up your lower drawer? I just want to get that statement of the heart. From where you last put Yeah, Grace Tame 20:14 yeah, no, I think I think he got it right. And yeah, I mean those three things like equality for all and I mean, it's not just women. I think it's it's gender diverse voices. It's it's everyone. It's the LGBTQI community you know, and people of color it's, you know, it's the marginalized it's it's refugees, it's migrants. It's um, it's people with disability you know, visible disability. invisible disability. Oh, Jan Fran 20:45 hi. Oh, here we go. Hey, it's all of us. Dan Ilic 20:52 Sorry, this is Elizabeth Watson she's the grains new member Elizabeth Watson Brown 20:58 you're an absolute hero grace so nice. Sorry to buddy and but respect respect. Grace Tame 21:05 Thank you, Ron. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you absolutely wrapped and deservedly so. Yeah, Elizabeth Watson Brown 21:10 it's a little bit surreal. Dan Ilic 21:11 Grace, tell me one thing you're hopeful about heading into 2022 and 2023. Grace Tame 21:35 That Scott Morrison is not our prime minister. See the future so I don't I don't know. But I'm just hopeful. Like, you know, that it's not Dan Ilic 21:52 I've got some great news for you. He resigned a couple of days ago. Grace Tame 21:55 I love it. There's lots of things to be hopeful about. Jan Fran 21:59 I am I'm hopeful Grace Tame 22:01 I'm hopeful about this new again this new look of leadership that has you know, again, it's not it's it's we've got a long way to go but I think it's a good start Dan Ilic 22:34 Grace thank you so much for joining us on Jan. Fran has issues Elizabeth Watson Brown 22:39 Okay. Elizabeth make you to Sorry, buddy. And I got to see I got to say goodbye to you. Yeah, and yeah. Legend. Grace Tame 22:53 Your legend too. And I hope good luck with everything and shake them up. That's what we're here for. You around and I'm so glad that you're going in there and Scott Morrison is not the person in charge because Elizabeth Watson Brown 23:07 I'm I'm rather glad about that too. Grace Tame 23:11 Like he lucky if it's something with my eyes that I do. Jan Fran 23:16 Well, hopefully you don't have to run into him both for your sake and seemingly his Dan Ilic 23:22 thanks to T. Jan Fran 23:26 Grace to former Australian of the Year she needs no introduction. The next person that we're about to speak to look she probably doesn't or she might need an introduction because she's going to federal parliament. Dan Ilic 23:39 Please I need to know all about this person. I am so keen to have a chat with Elizabeth Watson Brown. The new greens member for Ryan. By the way, Ryan is in Queensland. Jan Fran 23:52 Queensland please. Welcome Oh my God all the way from well, frankly, what is now the greenest state in Australia which I never thought I'd say. Elizabeth Watson Brown 24:02 Absolutely. That's where we're at baby. It's so good. It's so good. So Dan Ilic 24:08 Elizabeth, I love the butter advocate article that came out this week. They said a whole bunch of Queenslanders were looking down their nose at Melbourne because they only have one greens member that was perfect, wasn't Jan Fran 24:17 it? That was at the time of recording this Queensland has delivered to two federal green seats that are locked in for sure. And there's still a little bit of, you know, a toss up in the seat of Brisbane, which we're not sure how that's gonna swing. But we know that the Greens have picked up three seats in in in the House of Representatives, which is a historic Hi, how are you feeling? Elizabeth Watson Brown 24:45 Try not to swear. Unknown Speaker 24:46 I did no no. No Elizabeth Watson Brown 24:49 hair testing, you know, and It honestly feels like this is the beginning of real change. Real radical change, you know, and I said the other day, it's like the tectonic plates of politics. is in Australia, absolutely shifting. And it's, it's like it's all cracked open and people are going to get representation. And don't I feel much happier about Australia I feel happier about being a Queenslander. I feel happier about being Australian, because Australians want this to happen. And that was so clear. You know, we had a huge campaign. We, you know, year and a half, I haven't had a break. So I'm a little bit hysterical. But a year and a half of actually going out and knocking on 1000s and 1000s. We knock on half of the doors in the electorate. And we just knew that this is what people wanted to do. You know, like, we're, that's our massive poll. We're asking people what's concerning them and what they want. And we knew that this was what they want. So we could feel it shifting. You know, we could feel the power of that before election night. Jan Fran 25:47 For those listening who might not be across all of the seats. Ryan in Queensland, just very quickly, just tell us a little bit about that seat and how it delivered a greens victory because when people think of Queensland, they don't really think of green seats in the Federal House of Representatives. What is the electorate of Ryan? Elizabeth Watson Brown 26:04 Okay, it's in the, it's in Brisbane, western suburbs of Brisbane. Brisbane is all defined by the snaky river. So we're across, we share boundaries with the other two significant green, you know, green and potentially green seats in in Brisbane, and they are Griffith across the river from us. And we've got a boundary that we share with Brisbane, which is sort of on a knife edge at the moment. So we're sort of western suburbs, there's a lot of leafiness, you know, that's code for, but it's also Jan Fran 26:31 Norwich, Elizabeth Watson Brown 26:34 highly educated, I'm just not far from the University of Queensland at the moment, we've got sorrow and all that. But we've got real diversity, you know, so we were knocking on doors in the leafy suburbs, but also in the suburbs, which, where there are people struggling with potential homelessness, and all of the challenges, you know, that our great, you know, kind of platform of policies is there to address. And so it was just remarkable. And I spoke to many of these people myself, I've been Yeah, I've been absolutely pacing the streets up in the hills and the Dales of beautiful Ryan, which is kind of got a lot of machinists out on the edges of it. But it's also got out of suburbs in the suburbs, and it goes right into the kind of urban center of the city. So it's an incredible kind of cross section of Australia. So it's a really good test case, I reckon, for how we're going to progress politically in the future. And, you know, talking to people and just going to, and asking people at the doors. So how have you been feeling about things, you know, how are things for you, and if even if people were the sort of people who said, We hate politicians, it's all broken, hate you. As soon as you, you know, lend an empathetic ear and ask people how they've been going because people have been beaten around the head. You know, for years now. It's almost like an outpouring, it was almost like a kind of a counseling session. And so just that personal connection, and so many people said to us, this is the first time anyone has come to my door and asked me those questions. So you know, so there you go, that just shows the gaping, more, you know, the gap, that is other politics in Australia, this huge gap in terms of, and what what, what became really obvious to us real gap and sort of nothingness in terms of any policies that were being offered by the old parties. And we came to the election with this incredibly comprehensive, you know, plan about all of the interrelated things in people's lives, you know, not just climate change action, but all of the social stuff about health care, you know, about education about all the stuff that people actually need, you know, to give a good life, which is what we're living a good life. That's what we're about, and people, people responded to it. That's what people want. And it's just been so incredibly satisfying. And even. And I'll stop in a minute, I realized I shouldn't be taking 10 different sentences, but I am a little bit hysterical. And it's Dan Ilic 28:59 understandable, I'm sure your adrenaline levels. Elizabeth Watson Brown 29:02 I haven't had a chance to have a break. But you know, the very day after, and I found out about wedding on the actual night of the election. I'll tell you about that later. But day after just going to the local coffee shop, people coming up to me and say, Elizabeth, thank you. Thank you. We we have woken up today. Feeling hope. And we haven't felt that for a long time and feeling proud that we live here, you know, so that's been so that's why I've been to in tears. Dan Ilic 29:33 I can imagine in your electorate. It's quite a climate vulnerable electorate, isn't it? Did you have some? You had some major issues with the floods what was what kind of impact do you think that had on the electorate huge. Elizabeth Watson Brown 29:43 We could we could see the mood changing. We were getting out to lots of people were having good conversations, but this year, the anger started rising and people are actually feeling directly and really linking you know, that real experience of climate change the latest flood For that we've had literally in their backyards and in their own lives. And so we were always able, you know, whatever was troubling people and whatever struggles they had, including the floods, and we helped them through their people, we could draw a very direct line between their lived experience and what the greens are talking about and what the greens are offering. And the power of that has been absolutely huge. Jan Fran 30:25 How do you see the next few years panning out? Because this crossbench this is a this is a new crossbench in the history of Australia. I don't think we've had a crossbench like this. What do you reckon? How? You guys gonna negotiate? Are you going to get drunk on power? Elizabeth Watson Brown 30:46 Well, we think we hold the balance. Oh, my God, you know, the state of Brisbane, for example, my mate Steven nailbiting over there? Well, they're scrutineering. The count, you know, so it's gonna go either to Stephen green, or labor there. Remember, Jan Fran 30:59 we're recording this on Wednesday, by the time you might, you might be listening to it. Now, we may already know who has won the city of Brisbane, but it is Wednesday for all intents and purposes. Yes. Elizabeth Watson Brown 31:07 Yeah. And so that's, that's on a knife edge. So you know, whether we're in balance of power, which would be fabulous, or not, we're actually going to be just pushing for these things and negotiating for them inside the house. You know, kind of being part of those discussions about what the future should be. And I think it's pretty patently clear, Dan Ilic 31:28 Elizabeth, what are the lit? What are the leverage points? If you don't have? If labour doesn't have a minority government? What are the leverage points for you? Like what, what buttons can you push to get desired outcomes, stronger emissions? Things like that. Elizabeth Watson Brown 31:44 I think it's just always been there pushing, pushing, pushing the case, debating it. You know, being involved in obviously, you know, the legislative numbers should mention also, you know, we mentioned the Lower House seats, we've also got a new green senator in penny on and paid course, yeah. So we'll have balance of power in the Senate, you know, so that's a very powerful negotiating position, there'll be a huge block, including the tails of people who are concerned about exactly the same issue. So I think even if we're not imbalanced the power, we will be in a very good arguing kind of position, as well. Yeah. Dan Ilic 32:18 At least in question time, you can all say boo at the same time, and it will be a lot more effective. Elizabeth Watson Brown 32:23 Exactly. Yeah. And there'll be a lot of a lot of powerful women there, you know, isn't that interesting? It's going to have a completely different complexion from any parliament that we had have ever had before. And there's just something so sort of bolstering and empowering about that as well. Dan Ilic 32:43 What I find about particularly the to independence, these are women you don't want to mess with. I don't want to cross any of them. Elizabeth Watson Brown 32:54 Can I put my hand up for that, too? Yes, you totally. I am a woman who has worked for yonks, like 40 years. And I know you can tell by looking at me, I'm no spring chicken, in my profession, which is a very male dominated profession. So when people said to me, and that is my real name, not my election name. People said to me, when I when I was asked to run, I decided I would crumbs that's going to be pretty, you know, it's a pretty tough and rough game you hadn't, you're going to be okay. And I said, I've worked in architecture in the building industry for 40 years. I'm no shrinking violet. And it's not about me. So I think I can handle that stuff. Thanks. I think if you had a long, you know, professional career, and you've been around, you've done other stuff as well. You know, bring it on, I say, because again, it's not it's not about me, it's about what we've now got this most amazing kind of mandate to do. And that's what really touches me. And all these people have been coming up to me and bringing their friends up to me and saying, Thank you, thank you, we've woken up, we've now got hope. That is the most enormous privilege and responsibility as well. And I think about all of those people who came up to me on pre polyps said, Elizabeth, I've voted forever as a liberal or whatever. And this time I'm voting for you because this is what I've experienced in my life. They have never answered that for me. They're problematic. One woman came up and said, I voted liberal 25 for 25 years, Elizabeth, I'm voting for you this time because Scott Morrison is a fucking asshole. And, and there were a bunch of liberal ladies beside me handing out how to votes. And he said, I hope you heard that. You know, Dan Ilic 34:37 that was Elizabeth Watson. Talking about one of her constituents does not necessarily Elizabeth Watson Brown 34:43 represent my opinions because what someone shared with me Jan Fran 34:48 or anyone that you're hoping not to run into while you're in Canberra, anyone that you're hoping to avoid for the next level. Elizabeth Watson Brown 34:56 I've been reasonably careful about that. You know, I'm not personally swearing about individuals, but Well, I did. We did have a pretty interesting candidate forum one day at the at a, you know, Chamber of Commerce out and near Peter Duttons electorate. Peter Dutton was there as was, you know, the local MP here at the time. And again, I didn't mince words, I suppose I wasn't rude. But they went there. They went there thinking, Oh, great, we're in. We're in our space. You know, we're in a chamber of commerce, everyone's going to ask us about small business or whatever. But all of the questions from the floor. Were about refugee policy. We're about climate action. You know, we're about health care policy and all of that to both Dotto and, and and our local member. And so it was so interesting, you know, you could feel the winds of change, and Jan Fran 35:52 Don't call him that I am absolutely not prepared to give him a name. That is no fun. Sorry. I remember him saying that there was a mistake to bring Lebanese people to Australia. I've not forgotten. My people don't forget, we don't mind people Elizabeth Watson Brown 36:11 and keep, hang on to that. Hang on to that hang on to that thought, yeah. But it wasn't a benign atmosphere for them even in a place that they thought they were going to be comfortable. And they were with friends, because everyone was asking them about these things. So it was pretty obvious in that room at that time, that that's what people were concerned about. So I don't know how teeny ad you can just keep me. But this is what the what everyone's been saying. Dan Ilic 36:37 Yeah. Let me ask you this. How did the climate independents managed to pick seats where there weren't strong green contenders? Or was there any kind of collusion that didn't want to pick up a phone to figure out this? Elizabeth Watson Brown 36:52 Well, it's interesting, when I met with them, I met for a kind of a nascent voices of Ryan group before Christmas, who reached out to me and I reached out to them as well, you know, I knew that it was happening. And they were having meetings, it was all about, you know, let's, let's talk about politics in Ryan. And let's let's engage with things. I had a really good meeting with them. I don't know whether they were planning at that stage to run a candidate. But we certainly had a a good chat about who I was and what we you know what we were standing. Dan Ilic 37:29 So maybe they were too intimidated by you. Browns, got her shit sorted. Let's go here. Elizabeth Watson Brown 37:35 I don't know, I don't know. But you know, they have been pretty supportive and interested in what our campaign has been doing. Because there's so much alignment really, between what the tills are talking about what the greens are talking about. But the TEALS is basically talking about three things, which are just some elements that we agree with. And we all know what they are, you know, its integrity, its treatment of women, and its action on climate. We are all interested in those things. I'm really interested in working with them on that, but our platform and our concerns are so much broader than that. Nothing. People are really interested in here. Dan Ilic 38:08 We've had, we've had, we've had Adam on the show, and every time so he said, Yeah, Elizabeth Watson Brown 38:12 I'm a fan. I listened to all you. I'm Jen from Def Jam. You gotta be nice to me, right? Dan Ilic 38:22 Oh, no, let me just click Log into Patreon. So if you're a Patreon Jan Fran 38:28 flattery will get you every every way. Elizabeth Watson Brown 38:30 I'm learning this media thing. I am so new to this game. But Dan Ilic 38:36 it is. So it is so refreshing to talk to you at the very start of your political career. Elizabeth Watson Brown 38:41 Before I just become poisoned and jaded. Jan Fran 38:46 Yeah, we'll check back with you in three years. See if you're still Dan Ilic 38:50 talking about moving forward and working families. Jan Fran 38:54 All right, the next three years, what is what's what's your one great hope for the next three years? Look, Elizabeth Watson Brown 38:59 I really do want to be part of you know, real action on climate change. It is just, it's not quite too late. But it's bloody late. You know, and, and that's certainly been. And I want to represent the people of Ryan, and that's in front of mind for them. We know that more than 75% of REITs are really concerned about that. And that's been the kind of linking thing across all of the different groups in Ryan, all the different sort of socio economic groups and interest groups and things like that. The underpinning thing that's common to everyone is the desire for that. So I see that as a major, you know, element of what I want to do there, Dan Ilic 39:36 so So what would you say to a cop in Brisbane, just before the Olympics, do you think that's a good idea? Elizabeth Watson Brown 39:43 Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. It's not something I've really thought about or addressed. But anything that means that we kind of discuss and collaborate things in a more thorough and deep way are good. Jan Fran 39:58 And how would you sort Climate change to a cop? Dan Ilic 40:04 Specifically, specifically, specifically one cop Datto. Elizabeth Watson Brown 40:09 Yeah, yeah. To a cop, same thing. This is about the future for all of our children and grandchildren. That was a big driver for me as well. I mean, I've been very sort of politically interested person. But a big driver for me when they started asking me whether I would run was that feeling that I couldn't sit by anymore? And just witness? Just watch what I felt was the future being stolen from the children and the grandchildren. Yeah. Dan Ilic 40:35 Elizabeth, one last question for now you're a new member of parliament, who are you going to deliver your first novelty check to Elizabeth Watson Brown 40:44 I actually was at a ceremony this morning as a kind of a proto MP, we're a big novelty check arrived, and I was so excited. I love it novelty. I think it'll go to a Women's Refuge. I'm really proud as an architect the best project they ever did. And lots of them have been glamorous and kind of, you know, they get published, they've been published in magazines. But the one that I'm most proud of, is designing the first purpose built refuge for women and children. Escaping domestic violence. No one will ever see it because it has to be secret. So I think it would go to a group that supports supports that. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Jan Fran 41:20 That's a great cause. And he here to more action on climate change with the majority of the Australian people want so good luck in the bearer. Elizabeth Watson Brown 41:28 Thanks. Great. Great to meet you and grace as well, because I bought it in early. Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks a lot. Have a great day. Bye bye. Robbie McGreggor 41:41 Yeah, I'm Fran. House issues. Dan Ilic 41:44 The future Queensland, perfect one day, green the next. Jan Fran 41:50 Yeah, man, it's been a it's been a hectic week, I'm looking forward to seeing how this parliament kicks off. Because it really is. It's a parliament that we've never seen before. Never seen it very excited. Dan Ilic 42:01 It's gonna be super interesting to see just how this it looks like Labour's gonna get the majority. But it's going to seem to be just how these new faces in Parliament can hold labor to account in the lower house and what kind of pressure they can lean on labor for to kind of get those emissions reductions. So that's what I'm looking forward to Jan Fran 42:18 say indeed. Well, folks, I think I think we've come to the end of the last episode of Jan Fran has issues. Dan Ilic 42:26 Jen Fran, it's so fun to be your co pilot hanging out with you as you delve through the issues. Oh my God, we've gone through all the issues in all the issues Jan Fran 42:35 possible. I mean, there's there's quite a number of issues actually, that we haven't gone through, but we've gone through the main ones, you know, Dan Ilic 42:43 there are definitely some outstanding Yeah. Look, I just want to say a big thank you to you, Jan, congratulations on getting this podcast up and going. I also want to say a big thank you to our producers. Frank Lopez and Caitlin sorry, thanks, guys. All the way from from sunny from the from sunny Queensland themselves. Look at them. We're in the greenest state in Australia. So do you think do you think do you think because you you produce this on the Sunshine Coast that the this whole podcast has a green slant for a reason? Jan Fran 43:13 Oh, look, we're still in a very safe Well, look, I don't drink too far. They're not they're not in inner city, Brisbane just yet. Dan Ilic 43:23 And if you are a corporate person, you know, you're like, Gee, I wish we had an eight part podcast. You should get in touch with F and K media. That is such a great job on this one. Jan Fran 43:31 They really did. I'm just I'm also just gonna speak them very quickly. For anybody listening who wants radio audio producers out there. You guys have been the best. Thank you so much. And also big thank you to you, Dan. Brown. Thanks to everyone. Thanks to the producers. Thanks, Dan. Thanks to you for listening. Thanks to me this and the Bear Bear. Dan Ilic 43:52 Thanks to the Jim Foundation who financially supported this podcast. Thank you so much for that, otherwise, this will absolutely happen. Also big thank you to our Patreon members and quite a few people signed up over the last few weeks. I'm just gonna read their names up very quickly. Tim Keegan Joe Clark, Andy Griffiths, Robert Hancock, Margaret balcom, Colin Jones, and Fairhead Hamish Brown, Sue Bush, Nina RG Hayden shore, and Peter tippet. Thank you so much for signing up. If you want to support a rational feed into the future, just go to patreon.com forward slash, rational fear. And also a big shout out to the Gadigal land and the urination of where Jen and I reside. This land we stand up so yeah, big thank you to you, our listener, Jan Fran 44:37 thank you guys, and we really hope that you got something out of the podcast. And if you rocked up on Saturday and you cast your vote regardless of what it was. You're a legend. We hope you enjoyed the democracy sausage catch you next time. Robbie McGreggor 44:53 Jam Fran has issues brought to you by a rational fear Unknown Speaker 44:59 Good day A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Jan Fran Has Issues - Ep 7 - Election Cheat Sheet with Amy Remeikis + Alex Morris
🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear 📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/ 🎟️ SEE OUR LIVE SHOW: https://comedy.com.au/tour/a-rational-fear-live/ Jan Fran Has Issues…with Election Questions. We speak to political reporter Amy Remeikis from the Guardian, and Alex Morris from the Australian Electoral Commission, who answers how you can make your vote count while drawing a dick on the ballot. ✏️🍆✅ Also, join Veronica Milsom, Mark Humphries, Gabbi Bolt, Lewis Hobba, Dan Ilic, Sami Shah and Paul McDermott for 10 Years* of A Rational Fear. June 4th Sydney Opera House. (*Runtime approx. 90min)! Produced by F+K media 🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear During the election your support is more crucial than ever! Thank you FEARMONGERS! If you enjoyed this please drop us a review on Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/a-rational-fear/id522303261 TRANSCRIPT: Unknown Speaker 0:00 This episode is supported by the jib Foundation. Unknown Speaker 0:05 The Election Race is heating up with a new poll showing labor and the coalition and neck to neck the fate of Scott Morrison and Anthony Albanese is in the hands of the women of Australia and many unsold on either I would describe women as being angry. What would you have done differently in the last three years if you had known that so many Australians were holding a grudge? Oh, I think I could have certainly been more sensitive. It is traditional for the Prime Minister and the leader of the opposition to give their final major addresses of the campaign to the National Press Club. Prime Minister Scott Morrison becomes the first prime minister in over 50 years to not give such an address. We wish him well on Saturday, as we do our speaker today. Opposition Leader Anthony Albanese, why is everybody laughing? Jan fram has issues breaking down the election on issue at a time brought to you by a rational fear. Jan Fran 1:01 Why is everybody laughing Laura tingle. It has been a very, very funny week. And welcome, everybody to Jan Fran has issues the podcast that breaks down the election one issue at a time. How's this week been for you, Daniel? Jen, I've gone from extremely stressed to extremely calm. But now I'm back in the stressed out category. So yeah, you're a swing voter. You're dead, right? I am a swing voter. Unknown Speaker 1:29 Yeah, well, you're certainly not the only one that's for sure. On today's show, by the way, because the election is just around the corner, we are on the final countdown, we're going to do something a little bit different. So we've asked you guys to give us some questions. And we're going to get those questions answered. And we're going to do in two ways. So we're going to be talking policy, first of all issues. You know how we love to talk about issues on this show. We're going to be talking all of your policy questions with Guardian journaux Amy ramakers, who is an absolute garden when it comes to policy stuff around elections. And then we're going to talk about the practicalities of voting actually getting into the booth, what happens, how to do it? What if you get COVID, all of those sorts of questions. And we're gonna do that with Alex Morris from the Australian Electoral Commission. That's on today's app. And then next week, we're gonna be talking about how the election was faked with qn on himself, so it's gonna be great. We're gonna save the best philosophy Unknown Speaker 2:29 because we're not doing any big issues on the show today. We're going to be taking issue though, with something that happened over the course of the week. And the thing that I have chosen to take some issue with is Scott Morrison, tackling a child a child have a listen. Unknown Speaker 2:57 I don't think that was the actual science thing. We actually got a State of Origin clip there. By mistake. Yes. It was not as bad as what we've made it sound are we the media that is sensationalizing the realities? We've tried not to do that. We've reached the pinnacle of our careers. We are the fake news. Unknown Speaker 3:17 We've gotten through so many episodes without being fake news. And we trip at the final hurdle, just like Scott Morrison tripped on that rugby field. Let me let me put this into context. scomo was out playing a game of soccer. I think it was with some young kids on the campaign trail. And he accidentally and I want to stress it clearly was an accident that he tackled this young kid to the ground. Little kids have had it too good for too long, Jan. They need to be brought brought down to size. Well, specifically the Shin Shin height, at least Scott Morrison. Well, it's you'd be pleased to know that Luca, who was the young boy that got tackled, he's got he stood up and he gave the pm a bit of a high five. But yes, you know, it's only been a few days since Scott Morrison called himself a bulldozer. We didn't think it was a literal thing. And it is basically the event that sparked a million names. Exactly. That's right. That's right. So that's one thing that happened on the campaign trail this week. Unknown Speaker 4:15 Jam has issues. So as you guys know, we love talking about issues on this podcast. Over the past few weeks, we've covered housing, we've covered foreign policy, we've covered cost of living, but I know that the election is is right around the corner. It's almost D Day, Dan. Yeah, I mean, we certainly haven't covered where to get a Veggie Sausage for democracy, sausage people out there. So we need to definitely cover that. Well. There are some just really important things that we need to you know, we need to just get across before we head to the polls. They are of course all issues based so we did put that question to you guys. If you have any questions about policies, shoot them our way and that you did. We're very grateful certainly did so this Dan Ilic 4:59 cuz I just kind of like a cliff notes of the last three years of issues so you can understand every single issue in about half an hour. Yeah, if, if that is even possible. And then, of course answering your questions, we have Amy ramakers, from The Guardian, who has been live blogging, their selection, so she's totally fine and has not sustained any brain injuries. Welcome, Amy. Amy Remeikis 5:23 Thank you. Thank you. I mean, I'm not sure if I would say I've sustained a brain injury or just compounded the one I have from covering parliament. But here we are. Here we are, indeed. Without any further ado, let's jump right in. Our first question comes from Esther McMahon, and this is her question for you, Amy. Hey, Jen. My name is Esther. My question is about the coalition's promise to let me take 50k out of my super to pay for my first house. Can you tell me how it is different from the first home supersaver scheme that the government has already been doing for a year where I can take up to 30,000? Out of my super to pay for my first home? Good question. They sound like quite similar policies, what is the difference here, the difference is a stir on the face of it is the Super Saver policy allows you to put extra money into your super account where it will accrue more interest and grow quicker than it would in a bank account. So you can put up to an extra 30,000 tax free, get a little bit more interest and then hopefully grow your house deposit faster than you would in a bank. What the coalition is offering now is to actually use your super balance to add towards your home loan. So it's 40% or $50,000, whichever is the greater figure. And you can then use that towards your house deposit. But you have to put it back. Allegedly, when you sell the house down the track along with any capital gains. That's the main difference. One is that your money that's growing in interest in a super account. The other is it's your money from your super balance, but has to be put back. There are issues with the government's latest one, according to economists, because you do miss out on some of that growth, for $50,000 Probably won't actually even cover the fees and things that you have. And there are fears that it's going to lead to a further bump in house prices, because it's open to absolutely everyone. Wow, that's very clear. Thank you, Amy. Dan Ilic 7:28 Can I use that $50,000 to go to the Hilton and just live there live there for some time? Well, the government also allowed you to take out $20,000 during COVID. So you could have gone to the Hilton, if you could show that you were in economic distress. But given the numbers of people who actually took out money from their super during the pandemic, it would be very surprising if there were many people under the age of 30, who actually have $50,000 in their super account at the moment. Wow. A very, very good point and staying with the topic of housing. We have another question from Susie Wakefield. This question is not about the coalition's policy, but rather Labour's Suzy, take it away. What happens if you enter the Labour's sharing home loan policy where they pay? I think 40% What happens if you can't reach your repayments? Can the government take your house away from you? Thanks, Amy. What happens if you can't make your repayments and labor has put in 40% of the cost of your home? Do you have to have Jim Chalmers come over? Unknown Speaker 8:36 That's exactly a member of the Labour caucus then moves into a room in your house? No, that is not what happens. Jesus Christ, that's better just taking the house coming and living with me, mate, just take my hat off. You come home and there's Tony Burke or Shane. Unknown Speaker 8:55 Or you go over movies now? Amy Remeikis 8:58 No, that is not what happens. So the way that Labour's housing policy is it Shared Equity, so you still have to go to a bank and get a loan. So basically, what labour is saying is if you want to buy a $650,000 home, because that's how much houses cost in your area, but you can only get a loan for 450 or 500,000 is that the government will essentially cover the remaining part of the loan that you're unable to get from the bank. And basically just kind of give it to you as sort of rent free money until you sort of sell the house. So pay them back or refinance them or pay them back or start earning more money and go over the cap and can pay them back. So if you couldn't make your repayments, the bank would probably end up taking your home to be clear, and that's how it sort of worked in other equity sharing things. It's no different from a normal mortgage in that sense. However, there are safeguards in place if you No, we have the you have the usual safeguards if you lose your job, because you will need some sort of like income insurance that goes with this mortgage insurance, you the home cannot, it's not eligible for this scheme if you don't have just everyday insurance. So if it's flood or fire or something, then you become an eligible for the scheme if you have not insured your home. And if you decide to sell or you know, something happens, you've got two years with the government to work out what it is that you do. So if you've got to move, and you're no longer able to live in the home, which is one of the rules you've got, you've got a little bit of leeway there to say, Well, I'm moving for this reason, this is why it's happening. If you start earning over the $120,000, I think it is, you've got about two years to work it out with the government over how you buy them out from that equity. If you die and you haven't paid off the house, and you've left it to your kids. And your kids don't over that cap. Again, they can work out over the next couple of years with the government to how that Shared Equity works out. But labor is sort of saying we imagine that people will have paid off a big chunk of their loan, or in fact paid back the government for the equity that they're putting into the house by the time that they do they do pass on. And that's how it's worked in state schemes like Western Australia where it's been around for about 30 years, Victoria and indeed the UK. Wow. Well, two years is quite generous, because you'd only spend about one year of that on the phone to Centrelink. So that will Unknown Speaker 11:35 work out. All right. You have a year to sort that out. Yeah, it is also only open to 10,000 people as well. So you have to check if you're eligible for that one. Wow. Well, that is quite an unlimited number of folks, isn't it? Yeah, I think that's been the big criticism of Labour's policies that it is only 10,000 places. Not a lot when you consider how many people are struggling to get into the housing market. Alright, let's move on. We've got our next question. We're moving on from housing entirely. This question comes from Gemma from purse. Hi, Jen. Gemma in Perth lucky podcast. I was just wondering if any of the political parties have any COVID policies. I'm on chemotherapy, so I'm severely immunocompromised. And also I have a two year old who isn't eligible for vaccination. I'm feeling really abandoned at the moment by politicians, especially in Perth, because COVID is rampant right now. Okay, thanks there. Gemma, I know she's really going through it at the moment. And thank you so much for your question, Gemma, because I think that there would be a lot of people who are in that same boat, we've got 10s of 1000s of cases of COVID. Right around the country. I know we want to think that it's over. I really want to think that it's over. It's not it's still around. And I think the most vulnerable amongst us are really kind of feeling the pinch here, including Gemma. So COVID On the campaign trail, Amy? Haven't heard too much of it. What are the policies? No. And Gemma, I just yeah, it must be terrifying for anyone who has immune compromised as going to the shops and taking your life into your own hands, especially since everybody just kind of dropped the mask mandate. So massive, massive sympathies. And if you can still wear a mask in those essential shopping areas, just you know, just do it for humanity. It just makes sense. But anyways, COVID has not played a huge role in the election campaign, which is kind of crazy when you consider how much dominated our life for the first two years of this government. Not to mention both leaders were out for it like only a month ago. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But it did actually pop up on the campaign on Wednesday where Scott Morrison was asked about it. And that's because we have had more deaths in the first five months of this year than we did in the last two years combined. So more than four or 5000 people have died of COVID. This year, it's working out to be about 45 people a day, are dying from COVID Each day in Australia. So Scott Morrison was asked about it. And he basically gave the same answer that we've been hearing that this is living with COVID and we are sick of governments in our lives. And he actually used quite interesting language, where he moved into that Freedom Party area where he was talking about people dying with the COVID rather than people dying of COVID. He is gone. The we're not getting governments in your lives anymore. We're not going to have any more lockdowns, we're not going to have the daily press conferences. We're just going to get on with it. And everything that we have done over the last two years has allowed you to get on with it. So that was a pretty blunt answer from Scott Morrison on Wednesday, Anthony Albanese was also asked about it, and he had a little bit more sympathy. He also said like you know, there is high vaccination rates, which is true for the first and second doses not necessarily true. With the third dose. We're kind of lagging behind in that fourth Unknown Speaker 15:00 doses aren't even eligible or open to eligibility for everyone at the moment, which is another problem as we head into winter. But Anthony Albanese said if he wins government, he would actually just like to convene a national strategy. So we have one moving forward. So we all know when we're getting third and fourth doses. So we all know what's happening. Well, it's sounds like a good idea to have a national strategy, something that might have been missing over this two year period. Unknown Speaker 15:28 leaving it up to the states. I don't think it was getting those job apparently, you know, no, no, it wasn't, you know, he just get the army involved a little bit earlier. That's the only thing he would do differently, apparently. So just an army officer and everybody's home, they get the vaccine. But you know, back in summer, we were taking wickets during the pandemic, and now we're in football season. So we're taking goals in the pandemic. Yeah, we're tackling with the pandemic, we're playing with the shock ease with the pandemic. It's, you know, it's all moving on. So, Gemma terrifying? Yeah, exactly. I think the long and short of it is that Unknown Speaker 16:06 the politicians or the major parties anyway, labor in the coalition don't really want to be talking about COVID. By the sounds of it. We're living with it. That's what's happening. And that seems to be a bipartisan strategy, albeit with some slight differences on either side. So take care of yourself, Gemma, that's, that's what I'd say. All right. Our next question comes from Kate. She is from Victoria. And this is her question. Well, to me, but also to you, Amy. Hi, Fran. My question is, what are the teeth that an independent federal ipecac would have? Will it take years to investigate an ex pm and his cabinet before Republic loses faith that the delay in cost and what penalties can be employed, applied? Jail, monetary barred from border to drop? Love to know. All right, the taste? Yes. Important question. It is? Well, I mean, if we're talking about the policy that the government has put forward, the coalition has put forward doesn't have a lot of teeth wouldn't actually be able to investigate most of the scandals that we heard about over the last Parliament wouldn't be investigating MPs, it would essentially just be looking at, you know, public servants would be done behind closed doors. It's, it's the biggest criticisms of it is that it wouldn't actually do anything. No, we wouldn't actually see anything different than what we're currently seeing it and Scott Morrison can bang on about the fact that it's 367 pages or whatever. But it was not tabled in Parliament. The government's won. Definitely gummy, not not with teeth, Unknown Speaker 17:46 or gums No. Unknown Speaker 17:48 Which one has the Trumpers. The crossbench has put through a integrity commission which proposal which has chompers. They're saying that everyone should be able to be investigated that they'd be open hearings, that that the independent investigators actually they get take referrals and they decide what they look into. But the independence crossbench proposal for an integrity commission does have teeth and that is looking at, you know, jail and fines. But it is important to note that integrity Commission's do not make findings. They do not decide whether you are guilty or innocent. All's they do is put together a brief of evidence and then give it to the Department of Public Prosecutions who then decides whether to lay charges and take it to court? Yeah, so the short answer is that, yes, it you could end up in jail. That's not for the commission to decide that's for another department to decide. But what penalties if any, can the commission apply? Or are they there just to make recommendations? Amy? Yeah. Do you do like do you get like a scratch and sniff sticker? If you know if you're really terrible or something? Unknown Speaker 19:04 I mean, that's kind of what you get. Now you just get a bit of a sniff around everything that's happening and go, Oh, we don't like that. Unknown Speaker 19:11 The Commission probably wouldn't be have penalties, because then that would take away from what the commission actually does, which is investigate labor have said that they want one with teeth and that they would support what the independents were putting forward. So they want something that is more meaty that what the government is putting forward. I'm not really interested in the penalties in the independence one I'm more interested in how many pages is it more or less? And are we talking a4 pages? How is how small is the font? Is it a scroll I imagined could be ascribed things that I find really amusing about the fact that he's like it's 367 pages, is that that climate will see that they took to Glasgow was about four pages. Unknown Speaker 19:56 I think that that was written on the back of a coaster Unknown Speaker 20:00 a lot on the back of a napkin. Yeah. Okay, we've got um, one last question for you. I mean, I think this one is, is a really important one. So we're gonna shoot it over to Nico from Melbourne. Nico, what's your question? Why is John Howard still alive? Unknown Speaker 20:16 Nico that is a very good question. I don't know if Amy Rebekah's has Brain Juice for this one. I also just love the tone in which Nicole asked that question. very fatigued, very tired. So obviously we do not wish death upon that anybody. We don't I don't know why John Howard is still alive, whether it's those daily walks that he took just generally staying hydrated and looking after himself, or whether there's been any sort of dark deals done at crossroads. I cannot answer that point. But he is still alive as he is still campaigning and he's currently trying to get Josh Frydenberg elected in Kooyong Ami. He's still alive because he walks in a tracksuit, every morning still, you know, that's what he does. He gets around. He does his morning walks, physical exercise. Sometimes I think people stay alive just by sheer grudge power to like just wanting to outlive other people. So Unknown Speaker 21:19 that's what drives me as an Eastern European spy is keeping me alive. Unknown Speaker 21:25 Yeah, he just be still. I think he's just happy that he's just holding on to Keating dies before exactly that's just a race between the two of them saying like you will come to my funeral. What I would really like to see is the Liberals wheel out Robert Menzies just like exhume the body get him around to some swing electorates. Weekend at Bernie's. We Unknown Speaker 21:45 definitely do not wish John Howard harm. Please do not send me lots of letters. Jaren Henderson? Yes, please don't slide into our DMS about that. It was just a joke. Question. John, May you live a long and comfortable life good on you. And Amy, thank you so much for joining us and answering all of our listener questions in just the exceptional way that you can. Anytime we've just got a few more days to get through and then I'm just drinking all of the tequila in the world. Unknown Speaker 22:13 Can I just ask you on the 22nd of May? Do you go someplace to have your brain wiped? So you can fill it with like new stuff? Well, you know what, I'm not sure if we'll have a government on the 22nd of May. So that'll probably be delayed until we work out who's won the election? I'm sure it's on the PVS. Unknown Speaker 22:32 Jam Fran has issues. Unknown Speaker 22:36 That was Amy ramakers, a journalist from The Guardian talking us through all of your policy questions. We did promise as well down that we weren't just going to talk about policies we were going to talk about the practicalities of voting Dare I say the nuts and bolts and pencils of voting? The don't draw a dick and balls on the ballot of voting. I think Alex will have something to say about that. But let's let's ask him about that for sure. Yes, let's ask him Alex. The Alex in question is Alex Morris from the Australian Electoral Commission here to answer all of your questions regarding Dixon bowls and various other practicalities so welcome Alex Unknown Speaker 23:17 nuts and boats and you went straight for Dixon bowls. She's Jen, I Unknown Speaker 23:24 get this one out of the way I had the pleasure of tweeting a C and a the AC Twitter account told me yes I can draw a dick and balls as long as the intention of my vote is clear. I just want to get that on the record is that yes that wasn't in fact me that answered your question Dan's Unknown Speaker 23:40 fantastic as long as you've number j boxes correctly that's every box in the house ballot paper one to six but the line one to 12 below the line for the Senate. Yes, you can draw what you like but Alex Morris 23:51 over 100,000 people to staff our polling places and to count the votes one of them might be your auntie or your uncle or your nana. You got to think about whether you want Nana looking at that. Well you're not going to be signing it What about like a nice little message to the to the counter saying Good job. Keep counting. You know, look, that's always lovely. Just so long as you again you don't identify yourself that's that's the whiskey Ron here. Okay, do you person reading this take regular blank breaks and drink plenty of water. Thank you. It's good advice. I personally just want to encourage people to vote in the right order just to make sure that their vote is clear and concise. And I know that we're saying that you can draw a bunch of things around it. Just don't do it properly. Get it in there, baby. That's my hot tip for Saturday, Jan Fran the Wowza from down on that just said no. Unknown Speaker 24:40 Please don't mess with democracy. This is because Jen Jen grew up in Lebanon. She's very she's you know, she's nervous. She's nervous about democracy. Well, actually funny. You mentioned that because the Lebanese election was just last week. And yeah, it's a shit show. So you know, we've got a pretty functioning democracy down here. I'm constantly reminded of that. Unknown Speaker 25:00 come election times around the world. But let's get cracking. We're talking practicalities, we've got our first question. It comes from Jessie in New South Wales. Hello, Jen. My name is Jessie. And I have a question about voting, which is, will there in my lifetime, be online voting? Because I just think about the whole process. And it's so extremely analog and old fashioned feeling, which is just more and more at odds with like, the way the rest of the world is thinking. Yeah. Interesting. That's a good question. Thank you, Jesse. What do you reckon Alex? Far out? Well, Jen, I think it's interesting that we sort of started by talking about an overseas election. We're a world leader in terms of election security, election, transparency, election integrity, and something that we can all actually be really, really proud of. And part of that is that we have this like analog pen and pencil and paper or pen and paper, if you want to bring a pen process that is heavily scrutineers. If we were to consider electronic voting, and this would be a matter for the parliament to consider. It's not something they see can like snap our fingers and make happen. Unknown Speaker 26:17 But we would need to be able to ensure that if an electronic system were brought in, that it could replicate that level of integrity of transparency. And it's not something you'd want to sort of bring in at the last minute or you know, to go a bit course you don't you don't want to half assed this stuff. Unknown Speaker 26:35 You want to put your full OS into it. And really make you want to full asset. Unknown Speaker 26:43 Cheeks. Okay, do you occasionally see overseas things like, you know, claims that elections have been stolen or have been fraudulent. In Australia, that's just not possible because of all of the levels of scrutiny that are applied. So you've got your scrutineers, you've got every ASC staff member signing a declaration of political neutrality. And everything that we do is subject to all of this scrutiny. And you just want to make sure that if there's an electronic aspect brought in, that it's capable of that same level of scrutiny as well. Yeah, I mean, just hearing like the last US election, just all the conversation around the Dominion voting machines and the other voting machines that don't work and things like that, and voting machines breaking down. I can't imagine if we entrust the same people who put the NBN together to do our voting that it would go so swiftly. That was a slightly longer answer here, Alex, but to answer Jesse's question, no, we probably won't see online voting maybe in our lifetime, even though that does seem a bit crazy to me. Maybe? Are we waiting? Are we waiting for the technology to develop? Maybe? I mean, realistically, probably, yes. Jesse did fails as well, in her lifetime. I don't know how long Jesse's gonna live. So that that does Unknown Speaker 28:00 make it difficult because it couldn't be 99. Unknown Speaker 28:04 Under the pump, I would never threaten Jesse, we think this is cool. All right. Let's go to our our second question. There. It's from Julie. So Julie, kick it away? What's your question? Hi. My question is about the Senate. Unknown Speaker 28:17 I'm thinking of voting below the line in the Senate, because I don't particularly want to vote for one party, I think I'd rather vote for individuals. So number one to 12. And my choices will obviously be split between the parties. Just wondering how significant it is to do that, is my vote. Gonna make more of a difference? If I go above the line? Or if I do go below the line and choose the individuals? Does that only really come into play? Unknown Speaker 28:50 You know, if it's a close call, and they have to start counting preferences. I'm a little bit confused. So any light that you could shed on that would be fantastic. Thanks. Okay. Thank you for your question, Julie. Essentially, how does one make their vote count in the Senate hours? Hey, just another easy one, then. It sounds like Johnny's actually kind of answered her own question here. So she wants to vote for individual candidates rather than parties or groups. That's what we'll overland ridings for so so long as your number at least one to 12 the load line, you are having your say. And it sounds like she prefers specific candidates over maybe the way the party is grouped? That's fine. Go for it bloodline. If you just want to vote for parties above the line, at least one to six and you're good to go. Unknown Speaker 29:37 And is it more significant? If you do vote below the line? Like does your does your vote? Unknown Speaker 29:42 Count more? Does it give the parties a bit more information about who you want? Does it affect preferences? What's the key difference between voting above or below the line in terms of your vote? Every vote has the same level of significance. So you know, we've all everyone's vote weighs the same that's sort of a basic principle. Unknown Speaker 30:00 with democracy, all it is is that you are saying. So if you vote above the line, a party has a list below the line of candidates in a particular order. So it might be apple, orange pear or something like that, to use the sort of fruit based example we use in the Education Center. You might decide that you like pear more than apple, orange. So you want to vote below the line for pear first. And if you're in New South Wales, you got tons of people below the line. Do you get any fill out below the line correctly? Do you get a certificate or something or a sticker? Yes, Unknown Speaker 30:30 I know it's a huge number. I think Anthony Green has done the research on this. And it's only a very, very small percentage of total voters that do this. There is actually a risk here as well. Because if your number every box, like the more boxes, there are the number the more numbers you gotta remember, there's a chance that you might be number one numbering, skip a number of European number, it won't make your vote completely informal in the Senate. But your vote does stop at the point where you stuff are gone. So it's slightly risky, a little bit more risk with voting below the line. Actually, I got a message from John Rooney, the Olympian. Thank you, John, for sending in the message, which was exactly about this issue. She said she had no problems voting in the House of Representatives take but the Senate card was so different because the abbreviations of each party above the line was so hard to decipher. She didn't even know what party was necessarily available to vote for. And she hardly knew any of the state representatives that were standing in for the Senate and what they stood for. And, you know, what their what their Gambit was, she was sort of much more focused on the local candidates for the House of Representatives. So she kind of just flagged that as like, this is less of a question and more of a comment. Just be aware when you're voting in the Senate. Also, Gian had a problem because she didn't go 12345 She awarded gold, silver and bronze. Unknown Speaker 31:50 really messed that up. Unknown Speaker 31:52 That was that was the other issue. Thank you, Gian. Alright, let's go to Gina from Victoria. She's got a question about voting and COVID, which is still a thing. Here's her question. Hey, Jen, just a question about voting. I tested positive for COVID This morning, which is Tuesday. And I've applied for a postal vote, because it's open till tomorrow evening. Unknown Speaker 32:15 I'm in regional Victoria, though, and a little pop up came up in my dress in saying, Hey, we might not get the papers to you in time, go to a pre poll station, if you can. Clearly I can't do that. I'm just wondering, what do I do if the papers don't get here? I really want my fake account. Any advice would be welcome. Thanks so much. Bye. Oh, Jaina. Hopefully the papers get there. I know there'd be so many people in genius position as well. Because as much as we'd like to think that yeah, COVID Not a thing. It definitely is a thing. So to the people who who have gotten COVID This week might get COVID tomorrow. What do they do, Alex? This is this is a tough one. We're answering a lot of questions from people in Janice position today. First of all, I've heard that sort of force before that, that sort of COVID throat voice, it sucks. I hope you get Jaina because she Gina tested positive before six o'clock on Tuesday night, she is eligible for a postal vote. As she said, she's not eligible for telephone voting. Anyone that tests positive after 6pm on Tuesday night is eligible. Now what we started doing this week is printing out postal votes at our local divisional offices and sending them out through Express post rather than batch producing them in Sydney or Melbourne and sending them that way. There's a good chance by the time that you're listening to this, that Jane has received her postal votes in the mail. And her vote will still get back to us in time because we do have 13 days after Election Day to receive the postal votes back from voters as well. That's something that we always wait for during the count. So there is time for Janice to do that. In terms of witnessing you need you need to post record to be witnessed. If you don't have a housemaid or a partner or someone that can in your place that can do that for you. You can consider sort of a contact free witnessing thing the same way that you do with food delivery. So you know, pop your poster right on the doorstep, have someone come witness it, sign it, and then cast your vote. So I hope that helps Virginia. The other thing I will say is Unknown Speaker 34:17 there's a difficult situation for a lot of people who might be in a situation where look, if you don't get your postal vote, you might not be able to vote on the day. We do send it out. We don't just blanket fine people. We do send you a letter going basically, hey, doesn't look like you've voted. Can you please tell us why? And obviously, I was in COVID isolation, I wasn't able to make it to a polling place is something we would absolutely consider. Well, I had a friend actually who just texted me this morning. I like she got COVID on Sunday. So we're recording this podcast here on Thursday. She got it a few days ago on Sunday, and thought that she would be able to use the phone system but looks like she can't and now has to kind of scramble to apply for a postal vote and hope that it gets Unknown Speaker 35:00 It's hearing time before Saturday. So she's she's a little bit miffed about about that, and kind of texted me in a flurry. So ask the person see this question. I said, Well, funnily enough, we've got someone on the podcast and just a few hours. What do you have to say to that? What else to say to that? I would love to be able to say, look, yeah, we can extend this to everyone. The eligibility for the phone binding, and it's been rolled out as a serious emergency measure, the legislation actually, like automatically expires at the end of the year. So it's not something that we'll be offering in future, as the parliament makes a further call on that, but the legislation is super, super strict about who is eligible. And it does relate to that, you know, testing positive as at a certain date. So, again, for anyone who is in that situation, I do feel for you, Unknown Speaker 35:49 though, it's one of those things where like, there are people at every election who encounter medical emergencies as well, there are people that go into labor, and I don't mean to political party, I mean, you know, childbirth, and hospitalized and can't make it there are people that have heart attacks. And there are people for whatever reason that can't vote on the day. And we're not just like soulless automatons who are just going to send you a $20 fine for not going we we do understand that their life gets in the way sometimes and we're happy to consider those circumstances. Okay, our next question comes from Aisha in Queensland. Hi, Jen. The state of my electorate is considered very safe. It's never been lost to labour or not for many decades and is currently held by key government minister. The margin they won by last election was 20 to 12%. Which I only half understand how that works. So does that mean that they got over 50% in the first round of preferential voting? Would voting for this a minor party then throw my vote away when they see it is so safe? At the end of the day? I'd rather much rather labour to get in. Okay, there's incumbent Queensland. I didn't want to vote for my minority party. Thank you. Unknown Speaker 37:04 Oh, no mas questions. Unknown Speaker 37:07 Okay, so I used to live in a very safe seat that's never been lost. To labor. The margin that was one at the last election was 12%. What does that mean? Unknown Speaker 37:17 I tell you what, these are some amazing questions. Your listeners have gone above and on. They're pretty good at they shout out to you guys. Yeah, yeah, I've only got dumb questions from Twitter. No, fair, fair. That's what we get on Twitter as well. No, good, positive. Alright, so what I will say here, 12% is the difference between the winning candidate the second place candidate, so it's in this place, it's a relatively large margin. There are big ones. It's possible that the candidate in that seat and I don't know which side it was one on first preferences, which, which means that at the very first count, that candidate got 50%, plus one of the vote, that's it, they went. With that said, we still distribute preferences and do a full count in every seat, every one. Anyway, around two thirds of all the house seats for the last election, were ultimately decided on preferences, so no candidate 50% plus one at the first count, Unknown Speaker 38:12 in terms of having your say, though, or wasting your vote, first of all, no such thing as wasting a vote, let's be really, really clear on that. Your vote always matters every vote in every race, no matter how safe the seat always matters. Because any party that wins more than 4% of the vote, any party or candidate I should say, is eligible for election funding. And that's based on how many number ones they get in the first count, whoever you whoever you put as your number one, and assuming they hit that 4% threshold is eligible for a bit of money from the agent base. See, and that affects funding that affects that party's capacity potentially to campaign in your seat in the future. Yeah. So that that point of her question of what voting for a minority party, then throw away my vote if the seat was so safe? I think if I can just jump in here. No, if you want to vote for a minor party because you think they best represent the interests of your electorate. Go ahead and do that. That's the simplest way to think about it. When you walk into the voting booth, what do you care about? And who is going to represent those interests, the best for you and your community and ultimately the country. I follow Senator Matt Canavan on Twitter and he loves minor parties, any party to do with mining big into it. Hey, I've got a question from Twitter. This is from Andy leach one of my followers on irrational fear. He says ACS public comps are second to none no notes question. Will you get a long break after Saturday? Alex? Look not until the council over so we kind of swapped one big job for another on Saturday night. So six o'clock Saturday, we now have to count Unknown Speaker 39:49 cheese upward of 30 million votes. So House and Senate ballot papers will need to be counted with 13 days after the election for all the posters to come in. And that's not just from Australians wallets for Unknown Speaker 40:00 I'm Australians, but it's from Australians overseas as well. We've got people voting overseas and postal votes coming back through diplomatic mail. Thank you d fat for that. Unknown Speaker 40:09 So there's a lot to be done. And the AC will be declaring results. Look for the next few weeks probably. Unknown Speaker 40:18 So yeah, he never sleeps. I'm hoping to have a bit of a break in around June, July. And we'll say 2024. Unknown Speaker 40:28 Well, no break for you. Oh, I'm having to have a break at the end of the at the fall of democracy. That's when I can have a break. Unknown Speaker 40:35 Well, no break for Alex sadly on Saturday, but let me tell you, you get a break from this interview. Now we're going to let you go because I know that you have so many things that you need to do in the lead up to Saturday and presumably for some weeks to go after that. So good luck. My pleasure and happy voting. Unknown Speaker 40:54 Yeah, I'm Fran house issues. So great to chat with Alex Morris, one of the brains behind the Twitter account of the AC who knew we had this online relationship going all this time. Look, it tell you what they're one of the biggest issues in this election is housing prices. And this week's sponsor is a brand new government scheme to get young people into their new home. The Morison government is serious about the future of Australians. That's why we're introducing hole seeker. Australians will now have the opportunity to access $50,000 of their superannuation to buy their first bunker. I'm all in on the side of those who want to buy a hole with hole seeker live out the rest of your life hiding 10 meters underground from whatever catastrophic shitshow the world is hurtling towards who cares what 50k might grow into in 30 years time? Will there even be banks in 30 years, or a job to retire frog or air. With hole seeker your children and their children's children can feast on canned food or share oral histories about the outside and develop innovative ways to drink their own pee. While the earth witnesses an apocalyptic nightmare of biblical proportions? It boosts their ultimate retirement incomes, because they're investing in their own home the best investment anyone ever makes. No matter if you're a first bunker buyer or buying your third investment bunker sign up for whole seeker and vote for the coalition if your main concern is the cost of living on this planet. I believe buying a home is the best economic decision that you can make authorized by oh my god you can't be serious. How far can you kick this can down the road before it all comes crashing down Canberra. Unknown Speaker 42:40 I think that might be the most comprehensive climate policy. Unknown Speaker 42:46 Yeah, at least is keeping Australians safe in our home. Unknown Speaker 42:50 Here's the thing Jen. We've literally got so many holes from all the coal mines we've already created. So which is least start leasing those. We're halfway there. Whole keeper. That's the one big thank you to Jacob Brown and Rupert Degas, and Killian, David for that sketch. Thank you guys. And thank you guys for listening to what is the penultimate episode of Jan Fran has issues we have only one more to go because the election is on Saturday. So next week. I mean, I would love to have a crystal ball or what pull the crocodile or pull the octopus or whichever animal predicts election results these days. I don't know who it is, Can we can we for next week? Perhaps try to get the Prime Minister of Australia or an A really good impressionist of the prime minister of reckon I can plan Bay might be where we end up landing, but hey, I'm totally fine. We're gonna have an election washed up show depending on how the cookie crumbles over the next day or so over the next week or so potentially. And we'd love you to join us on the last episode. As always, before we let you go though, get out there and vote my friends Saturday. It's gonna roll on by pretty quickly have your say number the boxes correctly. Have your sauce so and you know I hate sounding earnest. But we've got a pretty good democracy going in this country comparative to some other places in the world. Trust me, I've been there. So as long as you know how to count to 75 We should plays a big thank you to our Patreon supporters F and K media Alex Morris Amy remake is killing them Rupert Degas Jacob round. Also big thanks to you, Jan and big thanks to me as well. I'm going to pat myself on the back. I do such a great job of this podcast, which is not much at all. Also big thanks to the Gadigal people of the Eora nation where Jen and I are recording this podcast. Unknown Speaker 44:39 And remember to vote rationally A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Julia Zemiro Asks 'Who Cares?' — E5 — Penny Ackery (Hume indy Candidate)
🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear 📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/ 🎟️ SEE OUR LIVE SHOW: https://comedy.com.au/tour/a-rational-fear-live/ G'day Fearmongers, This is the 2nd last JZAC — and it's a good one. JZ has a conversation with Independent Candidate for Hume, Penny Ackery. There is a feeling of change in country NSW. Penny Ackery is a former special needs teacher who has been tasked by her community to represent the huge electorate of Hume. At 17 240 sq km it spans from Boorowa in the west to Appin in the east, with Goulburn smack bang in the middle. It's currently held by the Minister for Emission Expansion, Angus Taylor. One of the most powerful ministers in the government. But Penny has been hard at it, campaigning publicly since June 2021 — traveling the breadth of the electorate, listening, and consulting with folks about how to better represent them. It's the world's longest job interview. JZ lives in the electorate next door and has been supporting Penny Ackery in her campaign, so if this chat sounds like two friends who are trying to make change in their communities — it's because it is. Cheers Dan 🤑 CHIP INTO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear During the election, your support is more crucial than ever! Thank you FEARMONGERS! If you enjoyed this please drop us a review on Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/a-rational-fear/id522303261 Bertha Announcement 0:00 This podcast is supported in part by the Bertha Foundation. Julia Zemiro 0:04 Hi, Julia Zemiro here, I'm recording this podcast on the land of the Gundam gara people. Sovereignty was never ceded. We need a treaty. Let's start the podcast. Dan Ilic 0:13 A podcast about politics for people who hate politics. This is Julian Zemiro asks, Who cares? Julia Zemiro 0:24 On this second to last podcast I'm doing with the irrational fie organization, how I love them. I wanted to speak with an independent, no matter how you look at it. One big part of Australia's 2022 election will have been the independence no matter what the result is, and I wanted to speak to one close to home Penny Ackery is an independent running in the federal electorate of Hume in New South Wales. And for the last nine years, it's been held by Angus Taylor, Minister for energy and emissions reduction, or is he anyway, Hume is enormous. I live in Whitlam, which is right next door, and it stretches from Warragamba. We're Alicia Camden and loving them in the north, down through Wollondilly, winter, Caribee, and golden, which is where Penny lives to borrow, gunning and Crookwell in the southwest. penny spent 30 years of her life in this electorate. Her most recent job has been as a teacher for kids with special needs. And she has been a teacher at Golden and picked in high schools. And during the pandemic, she was an advocate for small businesses across the electorate, showcasing what they were doing, just helping them to kind of keep alive. And I thought it was interesting to talk to an independent I've been a bit involved with independence, doing some launches, doing some webinars on Zoom, etc. Because I was fascinated by it. And I wanted to find out what it was all about why people were doing it, were people really stepping up and they absolutely were. And I think it's going to be a very interesting chapter in Australian politics, and it will be interesting to see where it goes. In the future. It feels like a circuit breaker for me. And I reckon a circuit breaker is not a bad idea. I wanted to speak to Penny about why she stepped up to run as an independent what the process was like, and what it's like in there now with a few days to go to the election day. Welcome, Penny, how you going? Penny Ackery 2:24 I'm tired. I'm getting to the exhaustion stakes. It's been a pretty exciting journey. It's I've met so many great people. I've had a great time actually in reality, so I'm doing pretty well. I'm just getting pretty tired and a bit of exhaustion setting in Julia Zemiro 2:40 I had a little flashback to the launch your launch. As a matter of just explaining why I'm interested in the independent movement in general. I like the way it's made people wake up a little bit to the fact that whether you like it or not, whether you think you should vote or not. There is someone in Canberra that represents your electorate and your life. And if you don't find out a bit about those people, then how can you make informed decisions when you vote, but I was excited by having read Kathy McGowan's book I was excited about people getting involved and getting enthusiastic about something that doesn't usually enthuse it make them enthusiastic, which is politics. And I almost feel like saying politics isn't even the word for it. It's just how we live. It's how we want to run our lives. It's it includes family and includes education includes all the things that we need to make a good society. But with your launch, I remember we had two options. We might be outside if it didn't rain, and then there was rain. And so we ended up in this fabulous basketball court in Golden 350 people were there. It was very exciting. You were so impressive. Penny, you just came out of that gate. How do you feel you've changed from that day of seeing all those people eagerly wanting to listen, they weren't all on board, yet. They were still figuring out what was going on to now. Penny Ackery 4:05 I think I've just got better at being a performer. But I think what it is, is I think more confident in the message that I'm giving and more confident in putting out what we believe in and talking to people about what they want, and asking them the right questions. So as I go from gathering to gathering, I've sort of perfected a little bit or polished what I say to people, but what I've also found is that so many questions are asked and so many questions out of left field, they think oh, I didn't think about that one. But what's been really good is I've been informed a lot more about the local issues about what people care about on a national board. And I've been able to get their views as well and meld them into what I know that the electorate wants. So how in a way I've more developed rather than actually change because of the excitement that that was in there. at basketball stadium was palpable. And every time I go somewhere, it's the same feeling. Even if it's only six people, I went to Penrose Association Hall just last Tuesday, and had all these people, they're really keen to support me, but wanting to listen and to discuss. So I haven't been telling them. I've been discussing with what it is they want, how they feel about things or going, getting some ideas, learning new things. I think it's a two way conversation that's been really, really important. Julia Zemiro 5:31 Now, I'm in the Whitlam electorate, which is right next door to the human electorate, which is the area that you're running for Hume is enormous. Are you finding that there are some some common themes that you're hearing from everyone? Penny Ackery 5:44 Yes. And the first one I'm usually greeted with is we need to change, we have to find a way to do our democracy better, we have to make things different. And the number of people I've met that have come out and said, Gosh, I would never ever come to something like this, I would never organize something like this, you know, like, I really feel strongly that we need to get a better option. And that's, that really stuns me. Like I knew there was a little group around me that pretty keen, you know, politically aware, and so on. But there's an awful lot of people either side of the political spectrum, that are saying it's not working, this two party systems are very well, but it's breaking down, we're not getting what we need these days. And I'm going to come out, and I'm going to sort of help, I'm going to wave the banner, and I'm going to support you, because you're the middle option, you're the centrist, you're the one that will listen the out there and help make a change. So that has been the connecting thing or up climate change, or I like to talk more about a renewable energy economy, protecting the environment, climate change is a real red flag. And I like to move right away from that. Because when I say to people who don't believe in climate change, when I say well, what about our water, we need to protect it and make sure it's clean? And what about our air and what we're putting into the air. And everybody's on board with that everybody wants fresh water and clean air and food? That's good. So I think talking about that is far more productive. And then it lets us go straight on to what can we do to make it better, which is to rewire Australia, to really think about how we farming, all of those issues. And especially it doesn't matter where you go, but particularly with farmers, that's more meaningful than saying, Oh, you have to sort of take action against climate change, or what is the action. And I find people are talking to me, not just about that sort of thing. But saying, Well, it's great to have all these announcements and to say, Oh, we've got to do this, we got to do that. But so Ghana, Ghana, Ghana, it's not a let's do it. And this is what we're gonna do. And this is step one. And that's what I like to talk about, we know that we can rewire Australia, we know that we have the renewables with our business counselors already said, Yes, we need a better target. And we got to move. We've even seen a lot of our coal mining plants start looking at what we need to start looking at, we will have to shut down how can we transition? And what else can our product be? Oh, we can do renewables. I think that's a, I think that's coming. And I think people are really recognizing that a lot more. So we do talk about how we can improve our environment and how we can have renewable energy is up and down the electric, when we Julia Zemiro 8:20 did the launch, Cathy McGowan, I think drove herself down from Victoria to attend, because that's how that's how passionate she feels about knowing full well, that one person can make a difference and change things. And she, of course, was the member for in die and had a lot of did a lot of great work for her electorate there. But what struck me on the day is that, you know, she looked at that group of 350 people and was sort of saying, you may not think that Penny knows how to be a politician yet, because she said, I didn't know I was green when I got in there. But as soon as she got in there, she realized that she did have a voice as an independent, rather than being an opposition where she was fighting for things all the time, and how fast she learnt. And I think what strikes me is that when you look at all the mainly women standing for being an independent, I find you all incredibly overqualified for the job of what I've seen men in suits do now for for 10 years. I just think when I look at you, Penny, you've worked as a teacher, as a teacher special needs, you've been doing it for a very long time, the skills that go into the patience, the focus, the empathy, they're all things that people keep saying I'm missing in, in politics, and I never understood why that would be the place where that should be missing. Penny Ackery 9:49 Yeah, that's right. And I mean, the other one we can add to there is action and having a plan and actually getting to the end of it. And then if the plan doesn't work, changing it because as I said, I often say As a teacher, like, you know, you have kids, and you've got to teach them a concept. So, you know, you plan it out halfway through then jumping out the window. So you think, Oh, hang on, it's not working, I think I'd better do something different. So you change it straightaway. You don't wait till the end of the lesson. When it's all chaos, you do it straight away. And then you get a good outcome you don't have you know, that's that action. And that's changing what's not working. And one of the things that other people talk to me about as well is that if we're going on the wrong track, and we can see that, why do we keep doing it, like it's not going to make it better? We need to stop, evaluate and change track. And yes, it might look embarrassing, who cares if we get about an outcome. And so that's another thing people are talking about not just talking about things, but actually getting the action happening. And if it's not working the way it should look at it, and change it and do it when it's happened going wrong, not later on. So we can think of a whole lot of things even over the pandemic, things seem to be going well. And then there was a bit of a disaster. And in some cases, we just kept doing the same thing. And it didn't get better. So I think it's those sorts of skills that most people have in life, but we seem to have lost them in that political sphere, for whatever reason, Julia Zemiro 11:11 for whatever reason, who knows? Well, I would say, for whatever reason, you know, the other thing, too, is that, as independents who are coming into politics, not from the usual route, you've got nothing to lose, and everything to gain by saying, Well, I want to do this because I want to serve you. Whereas it's clear that the system in there now many people, many of them have gotten in there, because it was something that was said to them at high school that they will possibly be perfect for one day, which is to be Prime Minister or to be treasurer or to. And when that dawned on me, it was it was a revelation, because I thought But hang on, I still haven't chosen you. I still haven't chosen you to be in charge of that party, I still haven't chosen you, I will have to kind of cross my fingers and hope you'll do the right thing. So if anything on the 21st on Saturday night, the shake up is something I'm interested in, because you know a lot of people saying oh, we can't shake things up. We don't want it to be chaotic or crazy. Well, firstly, a hung parliament isn't crazy. It's a balanced Parliament as far as I'm concerned. But secondly, we need something to change. It's not you're saying when you're when you're teaching and working with a group of 30 kids, and you've got that lesson plan, and it's not working. Of course, you have to turn it and and work with what's there. And that's, that's such a skill. I think that is such a skill. Penny Ackery 12:32 Yes. And I think that, like you say that's what lack is lacking at the moment. And I'm in the position I am because I was passionate about getting some change. And I was selected from a group of four other people to be in this position by a whole couple of 100 people. And so I really don't have anything to lose, like, at the moment, I've got a garden out there that is so full of weeds. You know, and I've got a house that needs finishing. And I've got people that I haven't seen for a long time, I've got plenty of things I could do with my life. But so I've got nothing to lose if I if I am gonna win, but just in case I don't, I have another life to go to. It's not like I'm oh my gosh, I'm not the Prime Minister, I'm not in Parliament, oh, that was my dream. This is not my dream, this is what I need to do. Because I've been selected to do it by the community. And we are working as hard as we can to get there. Because it's going to make life better. It's going to make our democracy better. But it's not something that I chose to do. I've got other things I can do in my life. But I'm choosing to do this because people have chosen me to do it. Julia Zemiro 13:37 I watched one of those town halls on zoom with the four candidates, including you and you were just so succinct and clear as only a teacher can be. Because that's the other thing. You know, it's people say how do you train for politics and what schools none of them went to political school. It's, it's actually teachers who get up in front of kids and talk day after day after day after day after day after day, I think have more kind of energy and more experiencing going I don't need every single person in this room to hear what I'm saying. I just need a few of you to be you know, kind of watching. I know I can see what you're doing. I can see what you're doing. I didn't I did Rick and teachers have this incredible peripheral vision and hearing. They see everything that's happening. They choose to react to the bits they've got to react to. Penny Ackery 14:24 I love it. That's right. And I mean, it's sort of even coming to kind of and there is some conflict in Parliament at times. There are some things that are said that probably shouldn't be said. And it's as a teacher, well, you just know, like, the worst way to deal with a conflict is to continue the conflict. So just pull back and chill out. And I think that's an important skill that everybody making whatever walk of life needs to happen. Don't get hung up about what somebody's saying, pull back and reassess. And just ignore it and just go on as you're doing. And I mean, you know, as a special ed teacher, that's a great Have a skill to have. Because if you don't have it Julia Zemiro 15:04 before you were saying, some people have been coming up to you and saying, I've never come to something like this before, I've never been engaged before. So if we're waking people up a little bit, do you think once one person is woken up, that they're awake? Like, there's no going back? Do you feel like they'll keep being engaged? Penny Ackery 15:27 Look, I believe they will, because I think some people have just sort of gone along and voted and went and shatter their television screens, but not actually become actively involved in what's happening. Now, obviously, if we just have the same people voted back in again, that's going to be harder for them to get that engagement. When I get in, they will be able to engage, because I'll be there knocking on their door saying, Well, you know, come on, what do you think you need, you know, we need to work on this together. But even if it goes back to be the same old bad way we've got at the moment, I think those people that had been energized and decided there's better ways of doing things, and they have got a voice, I think they'll be banging on the door a lot more. And I think they've found that, you know, a lot of these volunteers, we've got 1000s of them have really networked together and formed groups of friendships. And knowing that there's, you know, there's a few of us that will actually go up and, and complain and say, Well, we haven't been answered, why haven't we? I think that might give people a real lift to be able to feel they can do that. Now. Julia Zemiro 16:31 What have you found surprising out there talking to people, Penny Ackery 16:34 the number of local issues that we don't know. So what I've been doing, as, I guess, educating perhaps, or passing the message around, so I visited up, they wanted me to go up to Silverdale, which is very north in the electorate, up around Warragamba Latinum. Going up there, because people were really very concerned about the lack of consultation that's happening around this new airport, the Sydney the second Sydney Airport, all the things that are happening with zoning. So people have actually built a house with a granny flat because they want to rent it out while Mum can look after the kids and it provides income. And then suddenly the rezoning happens. And they have to take the granny flat down or they're not allowed to put the second storey on. And so these people aren't being consulted. So I've been talking about that issue about the rezoning that just suddenly happens and the issues that are happening with this airport and not the lack of information about it. So hearing about that and then coming down to the Picton people who are having trouble with their bypass or haven't got one yet that's the trouble. And then going down to even Tara go which is far south here from here with their incinerator waste incinerator. So it's all the different issues that you don't realize it so it surprised me. And how many different issues are more local to that area, what has been great is to actually inform those people down, say in gunning, this is what's happening around the airport area. And let me tell you, when I go north, what's happening down here, so it's not so much surprising, but it's been it's been an experience to be able to let people know what happens on their patch is really important to them. But there's a whole lot of other things that may affect one day, especially with signing what's going to happen on their patch as well, even though at the moment might not. So maybe not so much surprising. But I've been surprised in the passion of those local people about what's happening in their area. Just two days ago, two evenings ago, I went to Crookwell Crookwell had funded over the many years and ran through voluntary assistance through a voluntary board, wonderful aged care home. And when I went into that hole to talk about what was going to happen to the aged care home because they now need to merge with United care they're going to merge with Cole was packed, there would have been a well over 200 people there. And the feeling in the room of that community, how passionate they are about keeping that aged care in their area, rather than having it closed down and move somewhere else. And the work and the effort and the volunteering that's happened to make these aged care work for so many years, and the passion they want. They have in keeping it open. That was really an eye opener rather than surprising to know that in a small community, people really work together and really care about each other. And the importance of this. There were a lot of young people there as well as older people and the nurses were there their concern about what is what is happening in aged care all over that's affecting them. That was really uplifting to know that so many communities like that can come together and really make a difference in a change. Julia Zemiro 19:48 What always astounds me with something like aged care and early childhood care is it's all of us. Like it's not something that exists over there. I'm going To be aged care in a few years, in 20 years time, you know, we are all going to be if we're lucky to live that long, we're going to be aged care. Our friends, I don't have my own children. But you know, the beginning of childcare, the beginning of how what kind of education and getting early childhood education, that is only going to help you become a better adult, a better citizen, a better voter, it just blows my mind. So when you hear all the horrible things that happened in aged care, that certainly came out during COVID. They are all our relatives, they are our friends and family. And this community is obviously and the young people too, are saying I want to be able to visit my grandmother. Every weekend, I want to know that my grandfather's being looked after, it's, I don't want to have to drive great distances to pop in and have a cup of tea. Because that's what makes us feel like a happier person and not be stressed because we've left them somewhere on the other side of the state. And there they all were. Yeah, Penny Ackery 20:59 that is so true. And that was one of the issues that was coming up that if that if you're likely it won't be closed, but there was a threat that it could be closed, which means that all those people from Crookwell, who have people that have lived in the area for decades, suddenly going off to some other aged care that really shows how important it is to keep those rural communities together. Because these people have built such an amazing thing, fundraising themselves, and volunteering on boards and keeping it all going for so long, that it's a special part of their town. And it's special to them, because it does keep their relatives, their moms, dads, grandparents, and so on, right within the community. So that community spirit is still there. And we need to be really aware that there are many, many, many regional communities that want that community spirit to see. It's almost like a big family of big extended family in these small communities. And we shouldn't be trying to make them bigger and bigger and bigger, we should acknowledge that. This is how some communities work best. Julia Zemiro 21:58 But also, if at a federal level and a state level, you allow those people to keep doing what they do so well, which is take initiative, do things try and keep things together, you work as a team, you're not having to do it all as a leader, necessarily, but you're empowering others, which is what makes us interested in being better citizens. It's what makes us interested in keeping things beautiful, green, healthy, nearby, close by connected. That's that's where I've been sort of fascinated in this whole process in the last year and because of COVID, shutting us all down and separating us all of how we all come back together again. And you know, don't get people keep saying they're disconnected from voting that citizens are disconnected from voting. They're often not disconnected from the community. But it's then how it translates to, oh, who's your voice, then that goes to camera and says, Oh, can I just tell you about Crookwell I hope people are starting to see that there's a link, you know, that there's like, there's this umbilical cord that takes you there, whether you like it or not, it's there. So if you want to complain and complain, if you're not going to do anything about it, then I can't help you. Penny Ackery 23:09 That's right, isn't it. And even, you know, I went there. And they said that I was there, I didn't speak or anything like that. I just listened and was amazed. But the number of people that came up and spoke to me about even the meal fellow from Meals on Wheels, who organizes it in Crookwell? And the saying, Look, you know, we get subsidized for seven meals, seven people, but we've actually they've actually assessed us and we've got 15. So there's an issue straightaway that go that I can take to higher levels to say, Well, you've the government has assessed that there are 15 people needing Meals on Wheels, but you're only subsidizing seven of them. So what happens to the rest of them. So it's things like that, that are really important. Julia Zemiro 23:51 And it's insulting to be ignored that way too, because it's about detail, the devil is always in the detail. We know that we know that. You see it as well in your work as a teacher. It's the little things, the details that add up to make something work. And, again, I would say any of the people who are standing as independents in their jobs and what they've done, I think more lived and work experience, then then many of the people in charge, what can people do to help at this point, Penny. Penny Ackery 24:19 So the best thing to do is to go onto my website, Penny accurate.com.au. And you can volunteer and there's spreadsheets there for volunteering for pre poll moving, or pre polling booths. And also obviously on the day itself, because like I mentioned, there's around about 80 polling booths on the day. So if we can have at least one preferably two people on each of those booths, that will be just enormously helpful and it will really, really make a difference. And so that's the best thing people can do at the moment. We're still you know, we're having people stand on the rail and road and on the sides of some of the other roads waving placards in the morning. so they can definitely volunteer for that. And that's a lot of fun doing that you meet lots of great people and and it's really uplifting when you have lots of honks and waves. And so that's a great thing. People are more than welcome to volunteer to do that. And again, they can volunteer through the website. The polling day is essential. And as many pre polling people that can come to man, the four polling booths beforehand is would be fantastic. Yeah, we've already got we've got a fair few already people volunteering, we've got a roster, but all the more the merrier. And minor just add, we have people coming from the Blue Mountains to do pre polling. We have people from Maggi coming to pre Paul, for us. We have people from Wellington, coming to pre Paul from Canberra. And these people have even been door knocking and letterboxing. So the feeling that we really, really need to change is not just within each separate electorate, but it's a broad thing. And people are wanting to help from outside to make that change happen. Julia Zemiro 25:57 That's that was my case. You know, I'm in Whitlam and you know, and I wanted to come and help because I mean, I'll say quite honestly, I don't think Angus Taylor's doing any good in that community. I don't think he understands that community. And I was interested to, the only way to learn about something is to become part of it. And doing that launch was so it was a very eye opening to me to about how it works and how I found a lot of the people, like I said in, in that basketball court, I was chatting to them beforehand, we all were we all chatting while we were waiting for it to start. And some of them were curious. Some of them were undecided. Some of them had never been to something like this before. As you've said, some knew exactly what was going on. Some was saying I've got a young person in my life, or my daughter's in her teens or my son's just turned 20. And and how did they get involved? They were hungry for information. And that's been very interesting to me. Because if people are hungry for information, we've got to give it to them. And I think what's been really dispiriting is I think we've had a government in the last 10 years that doesn't want to empower people at all to know less and less and less about what's going on. And don't ask the question, read the back page, just check out what's happening in sport and entertainment. And don't look at the rest. And our lives are just intertwined with what happens in Canberra, they just end locally in our electorate, we have to be we have to care you have to care otherwise can't complain. Sorry. That's my that's my I'd have a T shirt saying can't complain if you don't get involved. Penny Ackery 27:34 Yeah, look, that's true. And one of the other really big things that's come out through is even the volunteers people that are interested that you know, they are interested in politics, they're aware, the the lack of knowledge that people often have, about how the system works, how the actual voting works. So we've all got a bit of an idea, but I've was really informed by some of the things I've watched on YouTube about preferential voting. I thought I knew. But there's a whole lot of things wrong. Yeah, right. Okay. So what are us as volunteers and people that are talking to people on the streets, we're actually starting to educate if you like, people about what how they actually vote. And when you put a preference like what does that actually mean? Does it actually go anywhere? Or it might depend on the photo? But it's also making sure that they know which isn't the tablecloth? Or is it the little sheep? Which one are you wearing as low house with a little one, and I may not, they're educated people, but we don't, whether it's something we need to do in schools a lot more or whether it just me needs to be really hammered home when elections happen to remind people, because there's a system that works really well. But if we're informed about how we make the system work, then we empower ourselves a lot more. Acropolis the other day, I had a lady stopped me and she said, one of your door knockers came to the door, and I was in my pajamas. But my young young son came and you know, he's I think he was just turning to vote. And so this person was able to explain to him and I learned a lot she said about what you actually do on on voting day, and how you you know how the system works, but also about those other issues that I wasn't aware of, and he wasn't. So I believe we've actually not just had a an election campaign, but an education campaign to Julia Zemiro 29:22 100%. And it's got to keep going to because I remember the first time I voted, I didn't know that there was a huge sheet of paper and the small one. Now that's like a secret, isn't it? It's like a weird secret that people turn up and go, What is going is this? Is this normal that the papers this big? Why is it this big? No one really talks about it. And whenever people do talk about it in Canberra, it's the clicks. They know all about it, because they live it and breathe it and do it. Why is that not filtering down? And if people have not preferential voted properly in the past, well then what's the result of that? she'll even mean, you know, if you don't, if you're not voting in the correct way for what you might want by accident, then something's something seriously wrong. People only seem to have to talk about how to vote, when it happened when it needs to happen, rather than going learn it every year, learned every year, this is how it is Be it at school kids can tell their parents or parents don't even know. You know. And often that happens, isn't it? Doesn't it kids often are telling they're often educating their own parents about about things. So yeah, an education campaign. Absolutely. So people can get in touch get on the website, get out there. On the night itself. Where will you be? Do you think you're going to be local, with some people with your team? Penny Ackery 30:47 Well, we've been discussing that over the last few weeks. And at one stage, we thought I will make a place in the middle of the electorate and bus people in and then we thought, Well, somebody's got to drive home again, I think the lead, I think what we're going to try to do is have something in Golden, which is the biggest center down here. And then something up Camden way. And because we have so many volunteers up north down south, and I'm not because of the size of the electorate, I'd love to think I could get in and out, it takes us two and a half hours to get from Camden down to here. Don't think that's going to work. But especially because the results are going to come in pretty quick. And it's going to be number one meat anyway. Yeah, we thought it would. So we'll probably have two events, and seeing if we can work at so that we can actually people can stay in their own home state Bundanoon or a Ghanian or borrower, and they can zoom in and join the party. So we've yet to sort of work out the finer details of that. But to unlike in a smaller electorate, where you just have one and everybody pops in and it takes them half an hour to an hour. You know, we don't want people traveling late at night, you know that the polling booths shuts, and then they've got to rush down somewhere. So we're, we're looking at having two venues, and I'll probably stay down this area, I'll probably finish up there and then travel down. But that's the thought at the moment, but trying to see if we can get other people, the volunteers, they can stay in their own homes have their own little parties, but they connected to us. So yeah, I have to get my son in to do a bit of tech work their opinion Julia Zemiro 32:15 of what we all want we all Penny, I've never been more engaged in the election before. I've always been keen. I've always had little election parties and watch don't get me wrong. It's going to be a very interesting, maybe historically significant night, I think the best thing about what's happened, this election is a lot more people are asking questions and wanting to find out how this system works and how we can make it better for all of us. And that is not a glib sentence, I genuinely feel like we need to keep being involved in that. And you've been a very big part in being one of those incredible independents who have a perfectly nice life. And I'm happy doing the things they're doing, but stood up, volunteered to be one of the four was chosen and has worked incessantly since So personally, I want to thank you for just being that extraordinary. Get up and try get up and do and getting finding out so much information and bring it back to us and I have all my fingers crossed for you for the night Penny. It's been a real pleasure meeting you and being part of a little bit of a part of your of your journey. Penny Ackery 33:24 Well thanks, Julia. And I really appreciate the support that you're giving. But all the people around Australia who send me emails and best wishes and let's have a change. So far, so many people around Australia are looking for that change and all the support that you've given and other people have given. I think we were on the road to change. Julia Zemiro 33:42 Alright, fingers crossed. Thank you. Thanks, Julia. Dan Ilic 33:47 What out what up? Jay Z asked who cares? Should boy Jay Z makes noise novedge as a journalism hero, this is Julius Amira asks, Who cares? Julia Zemiro 33:57 I really want to thank penny for speaking with me today. It was actually her birthday. She told me at the end of the call. She had her brothers and family coming to visit for a barbecue that day. Also, Penny's husband, John after a long illness died a couple of weeks ago, and she's continuing with her campaign. And I really think that speaks to her commitment and energy and strength to keep on going. And she says she has said on on on her social media that it's something that he absolutely wanted her to keep going with. So and I think it's important to to tell you that Penny's campaign is crowd funded primarily by people from across the human electorate. She's not accepting funds from climate 200 As many of the Indies are, or get up or of course, she's not accepting anything from oil and gas companies or pharmaceuticals or any other special interest group. I thought it was worth pointing that out. And if you want to help, especially on polling day that's absolutely needed. So go to her website. To me, the whole election period has been a she says not just an election campaign, but an education campaign. Are you shocked? I am. I'm shocked by how many people don't quite know how the system works. And we really hopefully, will change that a bit more in the future because that's crazy. We should know a lot more about how the system works. All right. That's podcast number five. One more to go. CC Transcribed by https://otter.ai A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Jan Fran Has Issues - Ep 6 - Climate Change with Alex Dyson + Anjali Sharma
🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear 📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/ 🎟️ SEE OUR LIVE SHOW: https://comedy.com.au/tour/a-rational-fear-live/ Jan Fran Has Issues…with Climate Change. We speak to Alex Dyson - Independant candidate for Wannon and former triple j breakfast choon lord, and Anjali Sharma who sued the Environment Minister whilst still in high school. Also, join Veronica Milsom, Mark Humphries, Gabbi Bolt, Lewis Hobba, Dan Ilic, Sami Shah and Paul McDermott for 10 Years* of A Rational Fear. June 4th Sydney Opera House. (*Runtime approx. 90min) We’re 60% sold! So get in quick! Produced by F+K media 🤑 CHIP INTO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear During the election, your support is more crucial than ever! Thank you FEARMONGERS! If you enjoyed this please drop us a review on Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/a-rational-fear/id522303261 A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Jan Fran Has Issues - Ep 5 - Housing Affordability with Adam Bandt
🤑 CHIP INTO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear 📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/ 🎟️ SEE OUR LIVE SHOW: https://comedy.com.au/tour/a-rational-fear-live/ Jan Fran Has Issues…with Housing Affordability. On the week that mortgages across the country took a hike, we speak to Greens leader Adam Bandt about how to balance wealth creation with… Idk, somewhere to live? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Also, we dissect the Coalition’s plan to increase affordable housing with novelty cheques. A Rational Fear is having our 10 year anniversary on June 4 - come see us live at the Sydney Opera House featuring Lewis Hobba (triple j), Mark Humphries, Gabbi Bolt, Sami Shah, Veronica Milsom, Paul McDermott and more. You can support us by becoming a Patreon subscriber and helping us with our cost of living. Do it. Produced by F+K media 🤑 CHIP INTO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear During the election, your support is more crucial than ever! Thank you FEARMONGERS! If you enjoyed this please drop us a review on Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/a-rational-fear/id522303261 A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Australia's best comedic voices and experts savage the news and drill down on climate change. It's fast. It's funny. 🏆 Winner Best Comedy Podcast 2020 / 2021 - Australian Podcast Awards 🏆 Sign up to the newsletter: http://www.arationalfear.com