Timestamps & Summary Chris Gwyn (02:05) JEFO recently celebrated its 40th anniversary. Can you share with us and with the audience the story of how JEFO started? Jean Fontaine JEFO started very modestly. I was out of school, 25 years old, and I had a choice to declare bankruptcy or try something. And I had a vision to offer our industry different source of material, to be more competitive. And it started like that. The snowball effect started gradually with one or two products, then the other ones were added altogether. So, simple start, amazing development. Chris Gwyn (02:49) This started and centered our culture of “Life, made easier”. Can you share with us what inspired this mission and give a few examples of how you and your employees embody this statement? Jean Fontaine After meeting with some experts who guided us about establishing our motto “Life, made easier”, we realized that we make life easier for the buyer, and their supply chain, with our quite fair size inventory warehouses. Life made easier by sourcing with our expertise, we know what is a product that fits. And, with the efficacy. Then, life made easier for the truckers. We have a nice system of logistics, able to make quality pallets the way we ship our products. So, it's life made easier for everybody in the chain of activity. […] Chris Gwyn (04:44) We've seen over the last few years the idea of artificial intelligence gaining interest across the world as the livestock industry keeps evolving rapidly. In your thoughts, what are the main producer challenges and market changes that you foresee and what will be the key attributes of those who successfully adapt to these changes? Jean Fontaine Farmers need to get access to their numbers and to have them handy to be able to know what's going on rapidly and correct the situation. Before AI, it was not easy to take a note and then put all these things together. Today, there are more and more tools to do that. Some companies offer on-site, cameras, and sensors that can feel the water flow, the temperature, the ammonia level, and the behavior of animals. So, all this will bring precision and the farmers will know what's going on. And sometimes we don't realize they have a hell of a challenge in their life. Many factors must be controlled. So, to do that, AI will bring us tremendous capacity. And then you have to adapt to change. The future with AI will change the planet. […] So, there's no reason that people can object to this change of knowledge. IPhones have been around for 15 years. Can you imagine your life without an iPhone today? Try to figure out your life today with no portable phone and then no smartphone. We can talk to the vets before they get there. They can have an edge about what is going on. Chris Gwyn (07:30) I know for over 20 years, Jefo Nutrition has brought innovations to the livestock and poultry feed industry with this Jefo Matrix Technology. Why is it important to microencapsulate nutrients like coenzymes in animal nutrition? Jean Fontaine It was believed that the rumen of the cow would do everything for the cow. Initially, we discussed having some AD plus B vitamins be protected to escape the rumen. Maybe you leave like 10 or 15 percent in the rumen to nourish the bugs and to go bypass. […] Today, we have discovered that very small quantities bypassing the rumen make a tremendous impact. From the expertise in ruminants, we went back to poultry and swine, and we discovered an amazing approach. And the concept for us is to prevent feeding the pathogens in the intestine of the cow, of the pig, of the poultry. And we have developed data on that aspect that is intriguing to a lot of people. Now we have the capacity to go after the rumen and after the stomach in monogastric. […] Chris Gwyn (10:44) Can you explain how we do that within the Jefo Matrix Technology? Jean Fontaine Our technology uses vegetables, 100% vegetable carrier, fats, which have high melting points. We have some specific formulations of carrier with fatty acids and triglycerides, that will allow it to be released in the small intestine. We know how to slow the lipase to have a delivery further down in the intestine. This is why we're gaining so much momentum with the customers. Chris Gwyn (15:08) Often in meeting with clients, they express to me the admiration they have for the entrepreneurship and the visionary aspect that they see in you. In this area of a visionary in the field, what do you feel is your contribution to the world of dairy cows? Jean Fontaine The contribution is to bring precision to the intestine of the cow for nutrition. People have injected vitamins. People have done a lot of drenching the cows. It was all behaviors to compensate for the problem they have at calving. Our technology, to protect against rumen degradation, has allowed us to give them a solution which is much less demanding on staff. The first reason people will leave the farm, the young guys, is the problem of calving their cows. They never quit because they drive the tractor. They never quit because they pass the broom. They hate to grab the cow and drench her and all the other precautions because of calving issues. When the placenta doesn’t get out, they hate the smell of the barn and the cows suffer. If the placenta gets out with the calf a couple of hours later, as they do with our solution, we make their life easier. It's another phrase that fits. It's life made easier for calving problems. Our contribution is to give maybe more fun to the farmers solving their main problem of calving. Chris Gwyn (17:02) Could you share the key factors or strategies that contribute to the seamless integration of the family dynamics into a business and how you've worked to foster collaboration and harmony among family members while building this thriving business which is Jefo? Jean Fontaine I was so surprised to learn that 85% of companies die with their president. I was not conscious of that. Today, I'm lucky, out of seven kids, I have three who are old enough to be involved with us. Émilie, Jean Francois, and Anthony. I think I transmitted to them the passion for what I do. I retired 42 years ago. Now I play the role of the president of the company. I play the judge’s role; I play the father’s role. I am still an actor, but I play roles. Today, the kids realize it's valuable. People respect and appreciate if you give your time for a purpose. To define the purpose of life, it's a challenge. The first time I was asked the purpose of my life; I jammed the question. So, we have to find out our purpose in life and share that fun of helping others. If you are useful, you have a future. I teach my kids to be useful, to be passionate, to love people, to accept also to be their friends. So, I teach them: The more you give, the more you get; the more you give time, attention, help, and love, and you can talk about money as well. Whatever we can do for others won't come back to us at a high speed. So today, for me, it's a very big emotion to know that when I leave, people will do that. Success, if it's only one life, is not success. Success is measured in time. So, I have many chances to be successful. Chris Gwyn (19:09) Could you share insights into how you strategically built and nurtured your professional network or circle of people who influenced you, advised you, and networked with you and what key principles or practices you believe contributed to the growth and sustainability of Jefo? Jean Fontaine It may sound easy to say, but we have the privilege to be in an industry where we have to be friends for a long time. If you sell me a house, I'll buy my next one maybe 20 years from now. It won't happen every month. In animal feed, we have to fill the pipe. So we need to talk to each other on a regular basis, weekly, monthly, quarterly. So we have a business of developing proximity and friendship. If you have proximity to people, you learn about their problems, their issues, and their challenges. Can we help them? Sometimes, yes, we can. This is making a rich relationship with the customer. And if the customer is happy, you have a good business. It's a fruitful business and it can be contagious. They're going to talk to others. I teach my staff to be lazy and I'll define laziness: Do it right and make people talk about you. Your reputation will be your best future. You have to be useful to somebody. If you're not useful, you're going to be out with the game. Chris Gwyn (20:48) As we conclude, maybe a message that you can pass on to the next generation of entrepreneurs in the livestock and poultry feed industry. What would you share with them? Jean Fontaine Don't believe the past will be the future. Whatever happened in the past without AI, without all these technologies, would not necessarily be proof for the future. We have to change. The world we are addressing is something invisible. So, we have to be open, and love change instead of avoiding it. Please be all excited by the change for the best. We are living in the best time for the human race. […] We have to be hungry for change and not fear to adapt and progress together. And this is needed for everybody together. Not one guy, one company, one team. Everybody should be in the same kind of thinking pattern.

Chapitrage et résumé Vicky Brisson (01:54) Tout récemment, Jefo a fêté son 40ᵉ anniversaire. Pouvez-vous nous raconter les débuts de Jefo ? Jean Fontaine Ça prend un petit peu de temps à expliquer tout ça, mais les débuts étaient très modestes. J'ai commencé à 25 ans avec le choix de faire faillite ou de commencer à faire de l'argent. Dans le domaine des luminaires, c'était le bicarbonate de soude qui était granulaire contre les Américains qui avaient le monopole du marché. Donc on a commencé modestement dans une maison avec un appartement qu'on a modifié avec des bureaux. Aujourd'hui, on a le campus Jefo à Saint-Hyacinthe et c'est un centre d'information. Jefo a commencé au Québec, ensuite en Ontario, après le reste du Canada et le marché mondial. Le petit pas, c'était la bonne technologie pour grandir sans s'enfarger. […] Vicky Brisson (03:06) La culture de Jefo est centrée sur «Life made easier» ou «La vie ne plus facile». Qu'est-ce qui a inspiré cette mission et est-ce que vous pouvez nous donner quelques exemples de la manière dont vous et vos employés incarnez cette déclaration ? Jean Fontaine La vie est plus facile, ça résumait l'approvisionnement plus facile avec différents fournisseurs. L'entreposage pour les produits, on dit en anglais «Just in time», l'approvisionnement spontané; il y a tout chez nous. Et, avec la recherche, on rend la vie plus facile aux chercheurs parce qu'on a rassemblé plusieurs marchés différents avec le même objectif de faire plus avec moins. Donc, ça a été ça qui fait le slogan «La vie en plus facile» la première fois et depuis tout le monde accepte que c'est vraiment ce qu'on fait. Vicky Brisson (4:31) Avec l’arrivée de l’intelligence artificielle, quels sont les principaux défis que les producteurs devront relever ? À votre avis, quelles seront les principales caractéristiques de ceux qui vont réussir à s'adapter ? Jean Fontaine S'adapter. S'adapter au changement. Vous savez que la plus grande crainte des gens c’est de changer. Donc, l'agriculteur et l’agricultrice vont apprendre à mieux mesurer ce qu'ils font. Avoir accès à leurs données, que ce soit la température, la qualité des fourrages, tout ça grâce au système d’intelligence artificielle. Ils vont être capables d'avoir une plus grande précision. Et quand on peut mesurer ce qu'on fait, on peut l'améliorer. Sans mesure, c'est très difficile de s'améliorer. Donc, c'est une voie que personne ne peut éviter. […] Vicky Brisson (05:36) Depuis plus de 20 ans, vous apportez des innovations à l'industrie de l'alimentation animale avec la technologie Jefo Matrix. Est-ce que vous pouvez nous expliquer pourquoi c'est important de micro-encapsuler les nutriments ? Jean Fontaine C'est un concept. Si on se rapporte au tout début, quand j'ai commencé en 88 à vendre des acides organiques enrobés pour compétitionner les facteurs de croissance chez le porc, on s'est moqué de moi. Aujourd'hui, le monde des médicaments a beaucoup baissé. Les additifs alimentaires qu'on donne chaque jour pour moduler la flore intestinale […] sont de moins en moins à la mode, puis même à certains endroits, ils sont bannis. Avec la technologie de matrice que nous avons, on prévient le bris de nos molécules, de nos nutriments avant d'arriver à l'intestin où ils sont absorbés […]. Sauf que nous avons découvert qu'en enrobant avec des matières grasses 100 % végétales, on vient qu'on traverse le rumen à 85 % et on relâche lentement avec la lipase qui brise le gras les nutriments qui sont bénéfiques pour la vache laitière ou le bœuf. Dans la volaille, la même chose s'applique. On va résister au PH acide, au phytate, au calcium, au soufre qui vont venir lier les différents nutriments et les rendre indigestes à l'intestin. […] Vicky Brisson (09:27) Vous observez depuis plus de 20 ans l'impact de la nutrition de précision sur les animaux. Est-ce que vous pouvez résumer pour nos auditeurs quelles sont les principales observations que vous avez pour ces animaux ? Jean Fontaine Première chose qu'on peut voir, c'est l'efficacité digestive. […] La principale raison pour laquelle nos jeunes hommes et jeunes femmes quittent les fermes, ce sont les problèmes liés au vêlage. Donc, quand une vache va vêler, les gens préviennent avec différents traitements qu'ils ont appris à faire parce qu'il n'y avait pas la technologie que nous avons aujourd'hui. […] Avec notre approche de précision intestinale, on livre ça tout ensemble ces fameux coenzymes, ces cofacteurs d'enzymes et les oligo-éléments. […] Vicky Brisson (11:15) En tant que visionnaire dans ce domaine, quelle est, selon vous, votre contribution au monde des vaches laitières ? Jean Fontaine Si on réussit à améliorer le vêlage et à avoir une vache qui va pouvoir faire plusieurs lactations consécutives parce qu'elle a une meilleure santé générale causée par cette nutrition de précision. Je pense que nos éleveurs gagnent beaucoup. […] Vicky Brisson (12:23) Vous avez créé avec succès une entreprise familiale. Pourriez-vous nous expliquer comment vous avez favorisé la collaboration et l'harmonie entre les membres de la famille tout en bâtissant une entreprise prospère ? Jean Fontaine Ça c'est une bonne question. Parce que pourquoi les enfants s'intéressent à ce que j'ai construit ? C'est qu'ils ont compris que j'avais du plaisir à faire ce que je fais. On peut guider les gens par l'exemple. Les enfants ont vu que j'avais du plaisir à recevoir des gens, à visiter des gens, se créer un réseau d'amitié à travers le monde. Parce qu'on a l'avantage dans notre industrie de vendre ou de fournir des produits et des conseils toutes les semaines, tous les mois. Nous, dans notre industrie, on établit la proximité. Chez Jefo, on aime recevoir les gens. Ici, au campus et même chez moi, on a développé cette amitié de proximité avec les clients, les fournisseurs. C'est important. Si tu n’as rien à vendre, tu n'as pas de produit à vendre, ce n’est pas bon. D'avoir des fournisseurs, mais pas de clients, c'est pareil. Donc, tout est relié ensemble. Mais je crois que mes trois enfants, Émilie, Jean-François et Anthony ont su apprécier ceci de mes 40 ans de vie d'affaires. Et aujourd'hui, ils vont prendre le relais. […] Vicky Brisson (18:07) Pour conclure, pouvez-vous nous faire part du message que vous souhaitez transmettre à la prochaine génération d'entrepreneurs de l'industrie ? Jean Fontaine La plus belle chose que je peux leur suggérer, c'est de ne pas avoir peur du changement. […] Le changement qui s'en vient va être impressionnant. Certaines personnes ont peur du mot : intelligence artificielle. Elle est là pour nous aider. Il faut accepter le changement et oser. […] Moi je vous dis que la vie est pleine de belles choses. Il faut s'amuser à la désirer.

Timestamps & Summary Chris Gwyn (02:11) I'd like to know a little more about why you became interested in researching ideal topic density. Dr. Albert De Vries I actually had an intern student from the Netherlands, and that student was very interested in welfare. And I said: If we just do welfare in the US, maybe that's not of primary interest to producers, although I understand our producers are all interested in welfare aspects as well. But I'd like to put dollars into whatever we do with cows. And so we did a little digging and came up on the topic of stocking density, the economics of stocking density. It's really a fascinating topic because there are some welfare implications but there are clearly also economic implications. […] Chris Gwyn (03:23) What are the key influencers of the economic return when you're evaluating where a farm is evaluating its optimal stocking density? Dr. Albert De Vries I think we should start by defining, what we mean by stocking density. Different metrics of that. We're not talking about dry lots here. We're talking about free stalls. We were also not interested in fresh cows or dry cows, which I think all experts agree should not be overstocked. We're looking at lactating cows. And we also did not think that feed bunk space was a limiting factor. So, in our research, we really looked at the number of cows over the number of stalls in a pen. And if that is 100%, then you have one stall per cow. And if it's like 120%, you have 120 cows for 100 stalls. So that is where we sort of limited our research to. And secondly, I think it's important to get the economic principle right. What are we trying to optimize here when we're talking about economics? […] Chris Gwyn (11:20) In that study, you looked at milk production. Did you look at component yield? Dr. Albert De Vries I think we looked at component yield, but I don't remember seeing anything necessarily, because, of course, we get paid for components. I don't think it was very clear that either fat or protein, for example, was reduced by overstocking. Chris Gwyn (14:10) If there are some other issues that you wanted […] to highlight, we can do that. Dr. Albert De Vries I haven't really said much about welfare yet. I mean, the student I work with was really interested in that, and I think it needs to be on our minds, too. So, if we say we just want to take care of the cow, we probably don't want to overstock. Cows are probably compromising welfare, perhaps a tiny bit only if we start to overstock, and more when we overstock more. So, we don't know how to square that with profitability. But obviously, that needs to be in our mind as well. […] Chris Gwyn (16:34) Can I ask you a further question about that? Because I'm not an economist, but where does cash flow come in if a farm needs to increase cash flow? Does that kind of counter go against optimal stocking density in low milk pricing? Dr. Albert De Vries I think you're on the right track there because we assume our fixed costs are independent of the number of cows. So, we would add cows to it up to the point of maximum optimal stocking density, which implies that, for that pen, the highest cash flow. And so, with low milk prices, we reduce cow numbers, because if we don't, our cash flow is going to be even less. So, cash flows, in this analysis, and this is obviously what I call a steady state; we sort of permanently are at a high or a low level of stocking density, but it's the same thing. So, the question becomes practically different: Well, my milk prices change, and I may or may not have the cows. What is the long-term response to stocking density? Those are harder to answer because, again, we don't know the long-term response to stocking density per se, but essentially, when we optimize our stocking density, we're optimizing the cash flow, the amount of cash made there for that pen on that day over time. Chris Gwyn (20:40) As we wind up, I always like to ask, what are some of the key take-home points for producers and nutritionists and lenders, in fact, and veterinarians, when considering evaluating the impact of a stocking density on the farms they work with, what would you recommend they look at? Dr. Albert De Vries If I put on my economics glasses, if you will, then I think overstocking a pace. And like last year in the US, we had actually good milk prices. […] At the same time, we learned through the research that it sort of is farm-dependent in terms of prices and what are the losses that you observe. And so we have a spreadsheet available for listeners that they can work with, and play with. Probably the easiest way to get there. If you go to Google and you look for “dairy stocking density calculator Florida”, I think we end up number one on the Google search list there. And there's an EDI extension publication there. And that publication lays out what the research was about, hopefully in not too scientific terms. And there's a link to a calculator we used as well that we made available for folks to play with. […]

Timestamps & Summary Vicki Brisson (01:44) As an introduction, can you explain what de novo fatty acid synthesis is? Dr. Débora Santschi To me, the fatty acids are basically if we would take that black box of fat, the milk fat test, open it up, and look at what's inside of it. So, if we take, for example, a herd that is at 4% fat, if we open it up, we can see what makes up that 4% fat and see where those fatty acids come from. […] The de novo fatty acids are one of those groups of fatty acids we find in the total fat. It represents, depending on the herds and the cows, roughly between 25-30% of the total fat. And those are the fatty acids that are synthesized in the mammary gland of the cow. […] Vicki Brisson (04:00) What impact does that milk fat composition have on the cow? And what are the periods when the fatty acid profile is more likely to vary? Dr. Débora Santschi I think it's very interesting to look at it from a cow’s side and also from a herd’s side. So, if we take the cow example, a cow in very early lactation, we all know that she's using her body reserves to compensate for that very high demand for milk production. In that case, a big chunk of her fat content will be preformed fatty acids. So, in very early lactation, we see roughly 50, or sometimes even slightly more, as a percentage of her fat being the preformed fatty acids. And in that case, the de novo will be very low and increase slowly over the first 45, 50, and 60 days of lactation. […] If we look at it on a herd level, when we do some ration change, when the forage digestibility changes, but we don't notice too much. All those little effects can also have an impact on the de novo content of the bulk tank sample. In that case, because bulk tank samples are often analyzed very frequently, then we can get a rapid insight into something that we might not have noticed on the farm level. […] Vicki Brisson (05:46) Knowing that the fatty acid profile of milk matters, what can we do to promote the production of de novo fatty acids? Dr. Débora Santschi The de novo fatty acids are the result of being produced in the mammary gland from rumen volatile fatty acids. So, everything that we can do to maximize rumen volatile fatty acids will have a positive impact. So, we often focus on the ration. So, of course, having a highly digestible ration, well balanced with all the nutrients that are required, is really important, but we need to keep in mind everything around it. […] Vicki Brisson (07:33) Can you expand on specific nutritional solutions that our listeners may want to consider? Dr. Débora Santschi The way we train our people, and I just want to mention, we have a lot of information that is available directly on the website as well to help understand and find solutions, because it's going to be very herd specific. But when I look at a herd, I look at the fat test, and the protein test, because those are values we know and we handle very well. I look at the MUN value because to me, it's important to look at the overall protein balance as well, and then I go and look at the fatty acid profiles. I always start with the de novo, then look at the mix, then look at the preform. That's my way of addressing a report. […] Vicki Brisson (10:01) Beyond just the amount of de novo fatty acids produced is also the variation in fatty acid levels. So, what are the impacts of that variation in fatty acids and how can we address it? Dr. Débora Santschi Very good question. I think, again, there's some information on the cow level, there's some information on the bulk tank level. I like to work on the bulk tank level first because it's every second day in our case, so it helps to get a very accurate and up-to-date overview. However, the downside is that it's only on a farm level, it's an average, and I have no idea of the distribution of it. […] When there's a lot of variation on the bulk tank, we see it a lot in the inconsistent feeding herds, in the herds that have a lot of changes in the ration, where the forage composition is not very constant. […] Vicki Brisson (13:44) Can you help us understand or explain the link between B vitamins and fatty acids? Dr. Débora Santschi To my knowledge, there hasn't been too much specific research combining the two, I think that's a very interesting area to explore. I think if we take one step back and look at the whole picture, rumen health, optimizing the bacterial populations we have in there, and making sure that this is all functioning well should also be reflected in the de novo synthesis. […] Vicki Brisson (16:23) Can you just expand a little on the tools that you have at Lactanet and that you offer your producers on how to monitor de novo fatty acids and how they can use that as a decision-making tool or to help them identify possible issues on the farm? Dr. Débora Santschi At Lactanet right now, back in 2020, we launched what we call PROFIlab. That's our milk fatty acid monitoring tool, currently available in Quebec, and in some Atlantic provinces, at the bulk tank level for now. […] We do have a prototype for the cow level. We tested it with some of our advisors, and some of our farmers. So, 2024 should see that prototype become a real tool, this time not only in Québec, but across the country. […] Vicki Brisson (19:13) Can you share your take-home messages? Maybe three or so for nutritionists, vets, and producers when they think de novo fatty acid synthesis in milk? Dr. Débora Santschi I'll say the first one is that black box. I like to see it like that. We're opening up the fat and understanding better what makes up that fat. So, get a deeper insight into your fat test, which is what we're being paid for. Second one, dare to use it. Just try. Just try something. Ask questions. Get the information you need to start working with it and try to have that value change. Try to cause an impact on that de novo value to make it move. And you'll see how it can be powerful for your herds. And the third one is, please, any suggestions, any ideas, any questions? You're more than welcome to contact us because as I just said, I think that's how we learn altogether and that's how we can make it even better and then share that information back. […]

Timestamps & Summary Chris Gwyn (01:57) Animal welfare and perhaps its impacts on health are hot topics in the livestock industry today. Can you please share how you became interested in these topics? Dr. Marina Von Keyserlingk That started probably in my head, let's say 25 years ago. As you alluded to in the introduction, I did a Ph.D. in Animal Sciences and I was trained initially as an experimentalist and as a ruminant nutritionist. And I worked in the feed industry in a number of roles for over seven years. And during my time, sort of at the end of my PhD, and also working in industry and coming from a farming background, what I was noticing and what was becoming very evident to me is that society was asking a lot of questions about where their food comes from. We had passed the time when society in general just trusted farmers to do the right thing. […] It wasn't necessarily that people wanted to become vegetarian. It was they just wanted assurances that animals had a reasonably good life. […] Chris Gwyn (06:02) Talk to me about how we maximize the amount of time that cow and calf spend together if that's what we're trying to do, and also to be realistic about the management procedures that a producer can or will implement at the farm level. Dr. Marina Von Keyserlingk I'm going to start a little bit further back than just that question. Why are we even talking about cow-calf separation? And ten years ago, I remember trying to apply for some money from the dairy industry and was basically told: Go away. […] Generally speaking, what's happening is that society is starting to ask questions. And society's question is, when people see dairy, do they see a situation or do they hear about the fact that the calf is taken away? We provide assurances that the calf is going to be fine and the cow is going to be fine. […] When we weigh all of the evidence on the health side and also on sort of the welfare behavior production side, I can't give you strong evidence to justify the separation. So, for instance, calf health, we say we do this because it's better for the calves. But what is the mortality rate of dairy calves in North America? We applaud when we can get it lower than sort of 6 or 7%. The beef industry would go broke if they had mortality rates at that. So, there are a lot of examples like that. Mastitis rates. Keeping cows and calves together is highly protective for mastitis. What's one of the biggest economic costs for farmers is mastitis. So, we have this situation where we don't have a lot of scientific evidence to justify the practice, but what we do have is 100 years of tradition. […] It's not a question of if it will become part of the conversation in North America. It's just a matter of when. So, you know, there's a farmer in southern Ontario that is keeping cows and calves together. I've talked to veterinarians in Quebec who are working with farmers that are trying to do this. Is it all working really well? Some things work well, some things are a disaster. […] Chris Gwyn (15:03) Do you have any hints of what can successfully work on a dairy? Dr. Marina Von Keyserlingk A lot of it is anecdotal. I would say the questions are actually a lot more fundamental than that. Like for instance, how long? Nobody really knows. […] The only thing we know is from the beef industry, where we keep them together for six, seven or eight months, which is closer to when they wouldn't wean naturally. I had to pick a number. We picked four months. Is four months right? I don't know. […] Chris Gwyn (19:04) We don't really know what the system really looks like, right? We're talking about contact. As you say, it could be a full day, half day, it could be a partial day, it could be through a window, could be in the same pen. I mean, this is all the stuff that we don't know and probably the stuff that maybe scares us a bit in production. Dr. Marina Von Keyserlingk Exactly right. And it scares us because at least here in North America, let's just take Canada, for instance. We still have whatever 70% of our farms are, tie-stalls. How would this ever work in a tie-stall? I mean, we are transitioning out of that. I would not invest in cow-calf contact work in a tie-stall facility right now. […] Change is scary. But change also brings opportunity. […] I understand how difficult it is for farmers because change is really hard and it's super scary, especially in those markets where they don't have supply management. […] Chris Gwyn (23:05) What are the deep holes and research that are needed over the next five to ten years to help the dairy industry understand and find practical solutions for that cow requirement? Dr. Marina Von Keyserlingk I think it's an exciting time in that area because it's almost a blank slate. I think, as I said earlier, I think issues are going to be: How long? What does contact mean? Chris Gwyn (28:30) Tell me about some of the take-home messages you'd like to leave talking about cow-calf contact and what needs to be considered moving forward. Dr. Marina Von Keyserlingk The number one message is: Don't be afraid of the conversation. […] I think what the dairy industry needs to do is figure out how to keep the consumer because there are a ton of alternatives out there. We want the consumer to want to buy milk, to buy yogurt. And a lot of that comes down to values. […] My other take-home message, just one other one, is I truly believe that the thoughtful person on the street doesn't expect us to change overnight, but they expect us to get better every day. And those are two very different things.

Timestamps & Summary Dr. Greg Eckerle (02:01) In your opinion, what can we expect to see numbers of dairy and dairy and beef crosses in feedlots in the future? Dr. Pedro Carvalho That's really a hot topic right now. I've been working with Holstein since I started grad school, and in the past few years, we've seen this increasing the utilization of beef semen in the dairy cows. […] There are a lot of factors that are affecting that. The increasing use of sex semen and the decrease in the beef cow herd, probably pushing that a lot. And I think it's something that came to stay. I think a lot of people are learning how to do that in the dairy industry. We still have to remember that the main goal of a dairy farmer is getting their cow pregnant. But I think that it's a great opportunity for dairy farmers to increase their profitability. And the data that we've seen right now also shows a really good opportunity for feedlot producers. […] Total numbers might still be the same because basically, the number of dairy cows is still the same. But what has changed is basically the genetics of those bull calves that are coming to our feedlot. Dr. Greg Eckerle (05:09) As we're pushing the supply chain and looking at these genetics of transitioning the dairy to utilizing more beef semen, can we expect to see specific British breeds? Or is it just going to be predominantly black Angus? Or would you propose that maybe if we want to look at some other traits, some continental or some exotic, for southern calf markets would be included in the mix? Dr. Pedro Carvalho That's an excellent question. For the past year and a half, I've been talking a lot about this. When we look at the numbers before 2017, we used to have about two and a half million doses of beef semen on the market every year in the US. From 2017 to 2021, we had an increase from two and a half to close to 9 million. And that's how much we're expecting. So, over 6 million doses of increase. […] About half of those are coming from Angus. So, we expect that the majority of those crosses are going to be black-headed animals. In second place, we've seen a lot of Limousin crosses and then Simmental. And the Charolais breed is the one that has increased a lot. They went from less than 25,000 doses being sold in 2017 to close to 600,000 in 2021. So that's a huge increase. […] So, we've seen a good increase in continental breeds, but Angus is still the majority of them. One thing that I can tell you, Greg, for sure, I don't think we are going to be talking about a specific breed. We've seen more variation within breeds than when we compare between or among different breeds. Even the Angus breed. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (15:02) [W]hen is the most critical point of the feeding of the dairy beef Holstein or dairy beef animal. And then what would be their typical starting period? Or do they have two? Dr. Pedro Carvalho It always depends. And it's going to depend a lot on the time of the year. We've seen California during summertime. That creates a much bigger challenge than during the wintertime. […] But on the diet aspect, another thing that we've done over the years, and Dr. Richard Zing, who I had the pleasure to work a lot with while I was in California, we would divide the feeding system into three different phases. The 300 days. we would divide into three groups of 100 days. So, those 1st 100 days on feed would be the most critical ones, I would say, especially in the protein requirements. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (24:21) And then to wrap up today, what would be three of your top take-home messages of working with dairy beef crosses or straight Holsteins in a feeder situation? Dr. Pedro Carvalho I think on the Holstein side, I would push them from start to finish as much as we can be consistent. They have good genetics, they marble well, and they can produce a really good quality on the beef. On dairy, I think right now there are more questions than answers. I do think that instead of looking for the best breed, we may be looking for the best bull in each breed. […] Something that we are planning to be doing in the near future is, and we didn't touch on that at all, understanding how much the early life management of those calves can impact later. […]

Timestamps & Summary Chris Gwyn (01:28) Can you explain what brought you to the study of cow handling specifically? Dr. Jennifer Van Os I started here at UW Madison about five and a half years ago, and as you mentioned, I'm in an applied research and extension outreach role. And so, I think it's really important that all the work that I do resonates with my dairy stakeholders. And so, when I was new, I went around and met with a number of Wisconsin dairy farmers and other people in the industry to ask them what are the challenges they face when it comes to animal welfare on their farms and what are their needs, how could my research and extension program help? So, one of the most popular requests that I got at the time was, could you please come to my farm and train my employees on the proper handling of dairy cows? And I found that a bit surprising that that was a need that kept coming up again and again, and unfortunately, it was not efficient for me to go around and fulfill this request. But it really got me thinking, how can I direct my research program to try to fill this need that people are asking for better training resources? Chris Gwyn (02:33) Recently in a presentation you did, you showed some older data from 2018 on what the status of training at the farm level for farm employees interacting with cows was. And you quoted 55% of US dairies providing training on moving or handling dairy cows. And I found this surprisingly low. So, I'm wondering in your work and extension, do you feel in 2023 that this number of 55% is still pretty relevant? Dr. Jennifer Van Os I agree with you, it's surprising. So, those data were from the United States Department of Agriculture and they are now about at least five years out of date. […] But to your question about whether this landscape has changed, I would say I hope so. […] Now the Farm Animal Care Program, in which 99% of our US. Dairy farms participate, they have an explicit expectation that anyone who works on the farm in an animal touch role, whether they're a milker or calf care staff, need to show annual continuing education in cow handling or calf handling. […] I know that in the past years, this has been a significant area of noncompliance where people are still struggling to find the time or the right resources to be able to do this sort of education. Chris Gwyn (05:04) The concept of low-stress cow movement and working in flight zones […] is pretty well established, yet I understand from some of your work that applying this concept is a challenge. I'm wondering why this is and what can be done to improve this adoption. Dr. Jennifer Van Os I think that's a great question. And that was part of why I was so surprised when I moved here that farmers were asking me for more resources and more training. Because you're right, these principles about the flight zone and using the cow's natural behavior to move them. It's very well established, and we know that it works. […] There was a way I learned in the classroom and in theory, and then there was a way I learned on the farm. And those things didn't always match. […] There has been a trend in the last few years towards what's called active learning. […] You might understand the concept of the flight zone, and be able to answer a quiz, but then when you are actually out there with the cows, these other real-life factors come into play. And so, I think that maybe we need resources that are more engaging, more active, and not just passive learning. Chris Gwyn (07:18) I believe you're in the process of developing a tool for cow handling training, the Moving Cows educational video game. I'm wondering if you give the listening audience an overview and an update on this project. Dr. Jennifer Van Os Yeah, I'm so excited about this. So after dairy producers asked me for better training on cow handling, I kind of put this on the back burner and thought, I can't be going out to every farm and training their staff how to do this because I need to run a research program. But then inspiration kind of struck out of the blue. I'm not much of a video gamer myself, but my father-in-law is a retired commercial airline pilot. And I think most people are familiar with the idea that before a pilot can fly a plane, even if they're very experienced if they're flying a new aircraft, they have to go through the flight simulator. It's too expensive and too dangerous to put somebody in the cockpit of a plane unless they've had some kind of practice. So, this was the idea I had for cow handling, that we have these passive resources like books or videos that teach you the principles of the flight zone. But to be able to actually put those practices into action, maybe we need a simulator. […] Moving Cows, version one was finished earlier this year, but we kept it private […] But in the meantime, we've compiled a lot of feedback from people who work on farms, dairy employees, dairy owners, consultants in the industry, veterinarians to get their input and make sure this game is relevant for them. And so, we've now compiled that feedback and we're working on version two of the game. So that's currently in process and we're hoping to have a public release by early 2024. So, you can look for it in the Google Play Store as well as iTunes for Apple devices. […] Chris Gwyn (14:25) Some key take-home messages that producers, nutritionists, and veterinarians, and industry influencers you feel should have taken away from today's podcast? Dr. Jennifer Van Os I think the first takeaway is something we didn't explicitly discuss, but I want to make it explicit, which is a lot of people don't realize that animal welfare is a science. […] The second take-home message is about learning, which is there is definitely a place for traditional or passive learning. Those resources are very valuable. We're producing some of those ourselves. But when we're thinking about people being able to retain concepts and practice them and learn by doing, that's where active learning comes into play. […] And then the last one is: if you would like to test out the game, hopefully, that will become available soon, my door is always open. Please email me if you have any questions. And I really can't wait to put this out there and hope that it can help the industry and help people feel more confident in their jobs.

Timestamps & Summary Dr. Greg Eckerley (01:59) Looking at muscle development, what roles do we see coenzymes play in upregulating energy to help with growth? Dr. Bradley Johnson […] [the] energy needs for both postnatal muscle growth as well as the functionality of skeletal muscle that being contraction, we need a lot of ATP. And of course, we know that the coenzymes are going to assist with this. All the way from the shortest burst of energy that we're going to get to produce ATP and muscle is the ATP-PC system, which is the phosphocreatine system, which within seconds can produce ATP. […] From thiamine to niacin to riboflavin, pyridoxine, biotin, cyanocobalamin, pyridoxine, and pantothenic acid, all these are coenzymes. Very important for energy metabolism for every cell. But it becomes very critical for postnatal muscle growth because protein synthesis is so demanding that we have ATP. Dr. Greg Eckerley (06:37) Can we hypothesize and think that genetic development and advancement have placed a higher demand for certain nutrients that were historically not apt to look at? Dr. Bradley Johnson […] Our thought early on was: if we have aggressively implanted cattle then they must have higher nutrient needs. Certain nutrients like crude protein or specific amino acids or even calories, do they need more energy. And in reality, those growth-enhancing tools did not change the needs for some of these. They made them more efficient. And so today, our cattle genetically and the way we feed them, nutritional management, we have some of the best feed conversions we've ever had in our beef cattle industry worldwide because of our advancements in genetics, feeding strategies, and total nutrient requirements. […] Dr. Greg Eckerley (16:24) Can we utilize certain vitamins like biotin […] in certain feeding period roles to maximize this potential, to alter program metabolism for these animals as they go through the feeding period? Dr. Bradley Johnson I tell you what, biotin is so intriguing to me. I think there's a lot of anecdotal work out there and I think it started in Australia, but a lot of people on the Wagyu cattle, the heavy marbled side, felt they could increase marbling by feeding elevated biotin to ruminants. […] If we feed a high grain diet to finishing cattle, the one B vitamin that's probably going to be compromised the most in the rumen is biotin. […] Dr. Greg Eckerley (25:55) So, in conclusion, would you mind sharing three of your main take-home messages that we talked about today with the audience? Dr. Bradley Johnson First off, I think we often forget the energetic cost, not really cost, but protein synthesis is not a spontaneous event. And we think of muscle as the main protein reservoir in the carcass, obviously. And that comes at a cost. It takes a lot of ATPs […] The other big take-home that I think the one molecule that I'm the most excited about of having direct effects both on muscle growth and marbling is biotin and knowing that biotin affects enzymes similarly to a beta-agonist, I think there are opportunities to enhance muscle growth. […] The final take home is our US. Food and Drug Administration, I think, is going to continue to offer regulatory oversight […] on some of these medicated feed additives, over-the-counter antibiotics, normal growth promoting techniques like implants and beta-agonists that we've become used to using. And, obviously, the more natural alternatives that we can seek and find and utilize in our industry, I think the better off we're going to be in the long run.

Timestamps & Summary Dr. Greg Eckerle (01:24) Do we normally call that intestinal acidosis outside of the agricultural university complex? Dr. Greg Penner I think probably the most common term that's used is hindgut acidosis rather than intestinal acidosis. And it probably makes sense given where we think most of that fermentation activity would occur and where the primary reduction in PH would be localized. Dr. Greg Eckerle (02:02) What can we do with the hindgut intestinal acidosis? And how is that having an impact? Dr. Greg Penner First of all, one of the things we need to recognize is rumen acidosis and hindgut acidosis often occur simultaneously. And in fact, we probably should reclassify ruminal acidosis to lumenal, so that it encompasses a broader area of the gastrointestinal tract. You're right, from a challenge or mitigating response, it's not easy to deliver compounds that are going to be released to buffer in the large intestine. So, we're really needing to focus more on strategies that promote ruminal digestion efficiently while minimizing or managing the risk of fermentable materials that reach the large intestine. Dr. Greg Eckerle (05:19) Is there any sort of mitigation practices that we could utilize to help keep that intestinal junction and intestinal villi healthy? Dr. Greg Penner Certainly, our data as well as others have shown that if PH is too low for too long, again, we don't have good thresholds characterized for the hindgut, but we do see a leaky gut, or at least increased permeability of the gut. Our work has been able to show that both outside of the animal using ex vivo conditions and also inside the animal using in vivo markers, we actually see greater permeability responses in post-ruminal regions rather than the ruminal region. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (08:27) What can we utilize and look at when we see animals undergoing a medicinal acid challenge? Dr. Greg Penner I think it's really hard to differentiate ruminal acidosis and hindgut acidosis. And as I mentioned earlier, they often occur simultaneously. I think in many cases, we've looked at indicators of hindgut acidosis as evidence for ruminal acidosis. And so we've probably been looking at it backward. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (11:56) Do we see an alteration in more pathogenic bacteria or harmful bacteria to the animal which could lead to increased ailments, transition of other things that enterotoxins, and things like that? Dr. Greg Penner There was some nice work done by Dr. Kees Plaizier at the University of Manitoba where they did some grain versus alfalfa induction protocols for ruminal acidosis. And fortunately, they have both ruminal microbial changes. And in some of those studies, they also have hindgut microbial changes. And if I recall right, I believe E. Coli abundance, I think they stopped at a genre level, but E. Coli abundance was increased. And so certainly we get concerned about E. Coli from a potential contaminant of meat or meat products and not something we want to increase concentration of, recognizing not all E. Coli will be harmful or truly pathogenic. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (13:48) When we look at the terminal carcass evaluation of these animals, do we see an increase in liver abscess scores from Fusobacterium that may cross this damaged intestinal? Dr. Greg Penner That's a great question, and that's the hypothesis we have. But unfortunately, I have not seen any data that confirms whether fusobacterium is crossing the rumen, crossing regions of the intestine, or both. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (16:15) Are there certain production periods for either both beef and dairy that we need to be paying more attention to with those management practices to help reduce those risks? Dr. Greg Penner Let's start on the dairy side. I think probably the greatest risk factor is early in the transition phase. And the reason I say that is there's a number of changes that have likely occurred during that time. […] In terms of feedlot cattle, I think any factor, again, that leads to a reduction in feed intake, even a transient reduction, probably increases risk for rumen and hindgut acidosis. So, these could be things like respiratory disease, it could be heat stress events, they could be transportation events. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (21:52) What would be three of the main take-home messages that we have for nutritionists, veterinarians, and producers when we want to help mitigate or strategize systems on farms? Dr. Greg Penner I think the first one is […] that what happens in the rumen influences the more distal parts of the gastrointestinal tract. […] The second one is when we look at the responsiveness of the intestinal regions, they're probably regions that are more prone to leakiness. […] The third one goes back to good standard practices, and I think this will never be eliminated from core tasks or core skills of a nutritionist bunk calling. […]

Timestamps and Summary 1:54 How do you feel about Meatless Monday? Jess Pryles I don’t feel much about Meatless Monday. It’s more of a fad […] 3:23 What can we be doing as an industry and as individuals, family-owned operations to impact our consumer demand more positively? Jess Pryles I think just telling the story, there are a lot of great social media platforms at the moment: Instagram, obviously big but particularly for AG, Tiktok has been extremely successful. There were a lot of big agriculture producers, […] I mean, big accounts on Tiktok, but small, independent ranchers, both on the dairy and the cattle, beef production side, who have hundreds of thousands of followers. […] 5:23 What’s one thing about Australia that you miss, and would love to bring back or have here in the States more often? Jess Pryles You know, I would bring back meat pies. That’s a very classic Australian thing, and the first thing that I did when I landed and got off the plane, I drove to this little pie shop that’s very famous. […] 6:32 What's your all-time favorite beef cut? Jess Pryles I think the point is, we do say for certain cuts to just buy the best you can afford. […] There are other times when you can really afford to get a bit more creative. You know, in Texas tacos, […] I frequently buy select skirt steaks. […] I think if I had to choose my favorite cut, this is very controversial in beef worlds because obviously, I feel like my death row meal would be a ribeye but one of my very favorite steaks, the one I just keep coming back to is top sirloin and top sirloin cap.

Timestamps and Summary Vicki Brisson (01:56) Can you share more about the role and importance of amino acids to support the dairy industry’s sustainability initiatives? Dr. Izabelle Teixeira I think balancing for amino acids is really important and can play a very important role in improving sustainability and can be a way of leveraging nutrition to enhance their sustainability. […] Vicki Brisson (04:28) What should [nutritionists] keep in mind when they’re formulating for individual amino acids? Or perhaps should they be looking at them as groups instead? Dr. Izabelle Teixeira I’m biased, right? But certainly, we have the literature support to see that when you look at individual amino acids, we don’t really fully explain the cow’s response, so the lactation performance response. So, looking at the amino acids as a group, we have a better understanding of those responses or why the cows are responding in a certain way. […] Vicki Brisson (06:46) Is there a reason why you looked at these specific groups of amino acids? So let’s say methionine, lysine, and histidine, and then leucine and isoleucine and you referred to the roles as well. So what might be the key differences between these groups of amino acids? Dr. Izabelle Teixeira There were some responses in the literature that we could use. We know that methionine plays a role in there. Lysine plays a role in there. We know that when we look at those amino acids and were, for example, decreasing the protein in the diet, but adding those amino acids, histidine was missing, and then could impair some of the response. So, it’s sort of the basis behind that first group. The other one is we also had in the literature some effects from the brain chain amino acids. So, we know that leucine plays a role in the mTOR pathway that we know is behind the milk protein synthesis. We also use the same basis for our hypothesis on the role of amino acids in milk fat synthesis. […] Vicki Brisson (10:06) Since you’ve done lots of work on dairy goat nutrition in the past, can you please share some of the key nutritional considerations that ruminant nutritionists should account for when they're formulating rations for dairy goats, especially when it comes to energy, protein, and mineral requirements? Dr. Izabelle Teixeira Thank you for bringing that up, Vicky. For me, it was fascinating. I have always looked at small ruminants as a model, […]. But when I started working with small ruminants, especially goats, they opened so many opportunities and created so many opportunities for me. So, throughout my ten years plus experience with small ruminants, I realized some similarities that we can definitely use small ruminants as a model for […] lactating cows. […] Vicki Brisson (15:39) How can we successfully integrate precision livestock measurements and management tools such as precision livestock farming and digital livestock farming? Dr. Izabelle Teixeira I think this is a hot topic. So, pretty much everybody is pointing their eyes on precision livestock farming and there are so many tools out there that can be used, that can be applied. The industries are offering us some possibilities and I think that's great because we need to improve. And we need to understand this precision measurement which is what is there that we can measure but also the precision management. So, how can we implement some tool that can be useful, but also it’s profitable? […] Vicki Brisson (20:42) What nutritional solutions are you currently investigating or looking forward to investigate as strategies to enhance the sustainability of those dairy production systems? Dr. Izabelle Teixeira When I arrived, I was asked to look at two main nutrients, nitrogen, and phosphorus, because that's something important here with all the environmental concerns, and I use different strategies for them. Regarding nitrogen, we are developing a mobile-friendly web-based tool that we can refine the use of mun, so milk urea nitrogen to really understand the response of the animals […] Vicki Brisson (27:49) To wrap up our discussion today, can you share your three take-home messages when thinking of practical solutions to improve the dairy industry’s sustainability? Dr. Izabelle Teixeira I would say the first one is to look at nutrition not as specific boxes like protein or amino acids or energy but in a more interactive way. […] The other take-home message would be to look at sustainability in a holistic way. […] And I think the last one is […] the importance of training because you can formulate the best diet ever if you don’t have the workforce prepared to use that diet for feeding the cows in a proper way, it doesn’t matter.

Timestamps & Summary Chris Gwyn (02:09) So John, in your work in advising agricultural businesses, and perhaps dairies in particular, talk to us about the strain that the current financial stressors of higher interest rates, softening milk prices and continuing high commodity prices cause at the farm level. John Ellsworth I think with inflation that we're fighting, not just in the US but Canada, everywhere, we have just higher-level inflation than we've seen for probably 40 years. And for our younger listeners, they probably never even experienced this before. And so, I was fairly young the last time we had this kind of event with inflation. But costs, the pressure on costs are crazy high and unfortunately, it's being compounded by, I think, out-of-control spending, at least in the US. […] Chris Gwyn (04:57) Talk to me about the practices that you're advising your clients and general producers to put in place to minimize that financial strain and that stress that it's going to cause. John Ellsworth I have really felt in the good times and the bad times, number one, that people need to know their costs. The reality is every operation needs to know what it costs them to produce. If it's dairy, for example, what is your cost to produce 100 pounds of milk? What are the break-even levels? If we measure something, we can understand it and we understand it, we can control it. If we can control it, we can make improvements in that area. […] Chris Gwyn (07:34) Is there anything unique with the current strain or stress that producers need to consider or is it just a matter of if you haven't done it now really is the time to get it done? John Ellsworth I think what's happening is a decrease in revenue on the revenue side, particularly milk specifically and the cost side is happening. I mean, it happens in every downturn, but this has happened a lot faster. […] It's happened at a more rapid pace, which makes it more difficult, more challenging for people, I think. So the speed at which it's happening is pretty daunting I guess is a good word for it. Chris Gwyn (08:46) In the past, you've written and you've spoken a lot about putting in place a business system that will help to manage financial strain and I’m wondering if you could expand upon that point and what it is. John Ellsworth I think it's a good time to use not just financial advisors but all your advisors very closely. […] I think it's time to use your advisors wisely and maintain focus. […] It's important to follow the advice of your advisors, your legal advice, your accountants, financial advisors such as myself, and your nutritionists. I think we have to look for ways to not just cut costs because we never want to cut costs to the point of hurting the performance of your dairy herd, for example. But I think we've got to turn over every stone that's out there, everyone that's available to us. […] Chris Gwyn (14:48) What would you leave with producers and their advisors, some of the key take-home messages key points that you would recommend that they implement or work on today in order to get to the next really positive milk price? John Ellsworth I think you always want to focus on the goal and the goal is to become more profitable, of course, in a difficult time like this. But remember that ignoring the problems doesn't make them go away. And especially on the financial side when you're dealing with bankers […] you got to plan in the good times to overcome times like this. […] So, on the feed side, for example, we try to prepare by having better contracts. That's not always possible, but one of the things I advise people, now, we're seeing feed costs come down. So, should I run out and contract everything? Not necessarily. […] I think it's important to think about laying in tiers. So, if corn is going from $300 a ton to maybe it ends up to 240 or something a ton lay in those tiers. So, if it bounces back up, you've got some locked at the decrease in cost, but you're not trapped with all of it at 275 when it gets to 230. […] I would end with this this too shall come to pass. This is a difficult time we're going through. The bankers know it, the producers know it, and we all understand it. But I suggested to a client recently that they should talk to their vendors, but also talk to their bankers because it's not an unreasonable request in my mind if you have a $400,000 line of credit for feed in a time like this, you may need to increase it to $500,000 or something of that nature. Not an unreasonable amount, even if it's a temporary increase for six months or twelve months, and then go back to the more normal level, I think people overlook that.

Timestamps & Summary Dr. Greg Eckerle (01:34) Do we see an increase in interest in vitamin nutrition in cattle over the past years? And if so, what has sparked the resurgence of looking at vitamins again? Dr. Jason Warner When we think about cattle nutrition, I think it's certainly an area that we've seen some increased awareness and interest in the part of the industry over the last four to five years, particularly. And I think when you really take a look at it, that's really primarily due to a couple of different main factors when we think about the increased interest that that's caused. And I would say one of the main factors is that when we think back to four to five years ago, the livestock industry, the animal nutrition industry, experienced a shortage in a supply disruption of vitamins on the market and as a result, there was a pretty substantial price increase. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (04:09) I remember that period of time the market was really volatile. It hurt a lot of vitamin suppliers and getting into the product for sure. But when we've changed how we're doing that, what implications could we see due to those changes or anything in the cowherd or even in the feedlot animal? Dr. Jason Warner That's a great question. It kind of depends on how you're looking at the system, whether you're looking at it from a forage-based cow-calf or stalker perspective, or if you're looking at it more from a growing and finishing animal feedlot type of perspective. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (07:01) What challenges does it come when we're formulating as well as getting the vitamins to the animal, where can we benefit or what strategies can we help to make sure we're supplying daily adequate needs? Dr. Jason Warner What it all comes back to is understanding how we best properly supplement that animal and deliver vitamins back to that animal. Regardless of whatever dietary situation that we're looking at there. A big challenge that I think the industry has is understanding different sources and vitamin precursors and how those can be supplied to the animal, what the availability is, and what oxidation levels are like with those. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (09:41) What type of things are going to be affecting vitamin stability and what were those antagonists that we mentioned? Dr. Jason Warner We can basically have degradation or destruction of those sources over time. The main things that we think about with respect to our fat-soluble vitamins, we think about things like sunlight, and UV radiation, and we know that those can have negative or deleterious effects on the stability of those sources. Heat is another one, and that's a big one. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (13:55) When we think about formulating products, are we generally still going to over-formulate to account for some of that loss instead of being right on the nose? Or are we lowering that due to cost objections that we're seeing? Or how are we typically formulating those products today to account for some of this loss that we know that's taken place? Dr. Jason Warner I think what we would really like to do is be able to account for the loss that we have over time and be able to accurately measure it. That would give us a lot more knowledge when it comes to formulation and being able to account for some of those losses. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (16:43) Where do we see water and other forage components […] that may get in there and affect nutrition as a whole when it comes to vitamin nutrition? Dr. Jason Warner Water potentially could be something that when we think about water quality, can potentially impact what we can see from a vitamin digestibility and utilization standpoint, particularly, I think about one of the most common challenges that we see with water quality is sulfates or high sulfur content in drinking water for livestock. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (20:16) Is there a benefit in your opinion, to protecting some of these vitamins, putting them in a matrix or some form of protected form to kind of guard them through these productive processes to make sure that what we formulate for, what we're paying for, adding it to the product is getting delivered appropriately to the animal? Dr. Jason Warner I think that is an area that could certainly be really well utilized and would have a tremendous amount of benefit just for the industry in general. […]

Timestamps & Summary Vicky Brisson (01:33) Can you share with our audience what are the main diseases you observe and what the economic impacts of these diseases are? Dr. Jessica McArt As a dairy veterinarian, I see all sorts of diseases, and new ones every week, I feel. But the main diseases I see working on farms or with mastitis are early lactation diseases such as hypocalcemia, and hyperketonemia, also known as ketosis. We see a lot of retained placentas. We see cows with metritis, we see lame cows. […] Vicky Brisson (04:32) Can you expand on the role of a proper nutrition program that supports those fresh cows’ performance? Dr. Jessica McArt I think the important parts are in our dry cows. It really starts there. So, it's very easy sometimes to not worry about those cows. But those are the cows that we're setting up to be successful in early lactation. So, I've really been sold on controlled energy diets in the prepartum period. […] Vicky Brisson (05:27) There's a lot of possible diseases occurring during this period. […] Can you explain how to best monitor and treat this disease? Dr. Jessica McArt First, I'll explain the idea of calcium dynamics. This is a term we've developed as we look at the calcium concentration in the blood of cows through early lactation. So, all of our dairy cows will experience a reduction in blood calcium after they calve because they begin production of colostrum and a lot of milk. […] And so we can divide cows into basically four types of calcium dynamic groups. […] When we looked at these calcium dynamics, we've seen that what's really important is that cows have increased their blood calcium by four days in milk. And so, the best way to monitor for this currently is by assessing the blood calcium status of cows around that four-day and milk mark. […] Vicky Brisson (10:26) Can you remind our audience what causes hyperketonemia and beyond that, what impacts it can have on the animal, including health production and even going as far as reproduction? Dr. Jessica McArt Hyperketonemia is a term we use for an excess elevation of ketone bodies in the blood. And that occurs in a lot of our early lactation cows as they go into this period of energy deficit where they cannot eat enough for the amount of energy they're using to make milk. Hyperketonemia itself is not a disease. […] Vicky Brisson (12:36) What impact do these sampling methods have on our ability to properly predict and address this metabolic condition? Dr. Jessica McArt That's a great question and something that I think a lot of producers work with every day. So, depending on whether you're measuring urine, milk, or blood, you may be measuring different ketone bodies. […] And like any test, some tests are better than others. […] The cool thing in milk is that while there's some daily variation, it's way more consistent than with blood. And so, some of these milk measuring techniques that people are starting to develop may help us get a better sense of the cow's actual energy deficit. […] Vicky Brisson (17:16) Can you share your three take-home messages for nutritionists, veterinarians, and producers when thinking of practical transition cow management, especially when it comes to preventing and monitoring hypocalcemia and hyperketonemia? Dr. Jessica McArt I think the most important part first is having a good management team to help and talk over some of these things. […] My second is to have routine monitoring. […] And the third one is to implement management changes or prevention strategies that are evidence-based and that you can assess. […]

Timestamps & Summary Vicky Brisson (02:20) In the last decade, modeling is a research method that's growing in popularity. However, mathematical modeling and livestock nutrition has been around for much longer than that. Can you explain models and what limitations they have? Dr. Jennifer Ellis A model can be anything from a single equation to a set of dozens or even thousands of equations, which represent, in our case, the behavior of a biological system. So, scientists will use models to help represent bits of the real world and to either aid our understanding of complex systems or as a tool to help make predictions. […] Vicky Brisson (06:03) How do models help us turn data into knowledge that actually helps our industry innovate in areas? Dr. Jennifer Ellis If you ever get the chance, you should really take a look at the Ackoff or DIKW Pyramid which essentially describes the steps required to transform data into information and then information into knowledge and then knowledge into wisdom. It's really fascinating when you start looking at that. But essentially, as you point out, data on its own is really just a series of signals. And with just data, we know nothing, right? Data only starts to become useful, or it becomes information when we provide context to that data. […] So essentially, moving us up this pyramid is the task of research, and it's the task of models to translate data into actionable wisdom. […] Vicky Brisson (09:04) Your lab is unique in the sense that you use models to expand nutritional research for many different species, and that includes dairy cattle, veal, turkey, and horses. Can you share with us how that came to be and how your modeling approach is shaped by what we like to call cross-pollination of many different fields of study? Dr. Jennifer Ellis I started as a ruminant nutrition and metabolism modeler in my master's and Ph.D. And from there, I think, rather organically, I began to get pulled into projects for other species. And in fact, when I went into industry, I was filling the role as a poultry modeler. So, I think throughout my career, modeling has been a skill set. And it's a skill that can be applied to a myriad of problems, topics, and species. And I think across species, animals have more in common than you might think initially. And I think we too often stay in our species silos. […] Vicky Brisson (11:50) How can models support on-farm decision-making? Dr. Jennifer Ellis At the moment, many models are used and applied by what I call expert users within various companies. And those companies will support producers in making on-farm decisions. So, you think of your nutritionist, for example. And those models are used to forecast different scenarios and how suggested changes may impact outcomes such as performance, sustainability, andeconomics. They can really be used to examine, “what if” scenarios, what if we did this change? What if we made this adjustment? What kind of outcome are we expecting to see now? […] Vicky Brisson (13:38) Based on your experience, why do you believe that modeling is a skill that students should invest time into exploring and why has that become such a big part of what you do at the University of Guelph? Dr. Jennifer Ellis I think as the agriculture sector becomes more and more digitized, with more and more data being collected, it will need more and more graduates entering the workforce with the ability to analyze and interpret and service these digital tools or models. So, for me, my biggest piece of advice for students now is to actually learn a coding language. Become computationally competent. The challenge the industry has at the moment is that people with that combined skill set, a knowledge of animal production systems plus digital competency, is low. […] I think that that's a skill that will become more and more in demand. […] Vicky Brisson (15:21) How would you define the future of modeling? What will be the main challenges in this area of research and innovation? Dr. Jennifer Ellis I think the future of modeling is really interesting. And I think what we'll see is the merging of traditional biological understanding based modeling, which we commonly refer to as mechanistic modeling, blending that with emerging data streams and the accompanying machine learning algorithms that are best suited to analyze them. […] For all of these new modeling methodologies, I think the biggest challenge will be getting robust and variable enough data to develop them so that they become good models to make forecasts from. […] Vicky Brisson (18:54) Can you share three take-home messages for nutritionists, veterinarians, and producers when they consider applications of nutritional models on farms? Dr. Jennifer Ellis Number one: Get more from your data by leaning into modeling and data analytics. […] The second one: Develop those computational skill sets in yourself and promote it in your employees, if not already. […] And the third one is to communicate and get engaged with developers. […]

Timestamps and Summary Dr. Greg Eckerle (02:05) When we see where we’re at with the cattle cycle, where do you think the next three to five years of production are going to go? Dr. Lee Schulz Just to give a bit of background, the cattle inventory cycle has three phases. It has expansion, has liquidation, has a turnaround phase. We’re currently in the liquidation phase. This cattle cycle started in 2014, inventories peaked in 2019, and we’ve been on a slide of inventories over the last several years. Most cattle cycles are nine to 14 years. And so, if you do the math, we’re in year nine of that cattle inventory cycle. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (06:33) Have we seen any change in the way that our beef are being marketed, or what’s that in comparison to the domestic market supply? Dr. Lee Schulz I’ll note demand has been incredible the last several years. If you look at it internationally or domestically, it has taken a bit of a step back in the last couple of years, but you compare it to a really high base level when you think about demand. So even though we’ve taken a bit of a step back, we still remain historically in a really good demand spot. And prices reflect that along with the tighter supplies. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (08:48) When we look at the domestic market and we see things happening domestically here: interest rates are on the rise, things that are affecting the American household, etc. What would we see at the retail side? Dr. Lee Schulz Well, I do need to commend you. You sound like an economist there, Greg, and because I think you highlight really the issue with demand, it’s not prices. So, the price of beef does not impact demand, it impacts quantity demanded, but it doesn’t impact demand. What we know impacts demand is income. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (11:04) July 4 and Labor Day are historically great holidays for us protein market when we have a summer barbecue season and things like that. Have you looked at that impacting demand this year or is it going to remain relatively flat? Dr. Lee Schulz Well, I think you can look at the value of wholesale, the choice beef cut-out for this time of year, it’s a record high. I think that points to, yes, we have tighter supplies, but you need the demand to pull it as well. I think you’re seeing very strong demand within the wholesale and retail level that is really spurring prices. […] I think it is really important to highlight it’s not a tight supply situation. The fundamentals there are a little bit easier to understand. We know that much tighter supplies will increase prices. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (12:52) What are we going to be looking at in the fall? The best-case scenario with moisture and then maybe worst-case scenario if we maintain a drought consistency pattern. Dr. Lee Schulz That’s really a key question as we look at crop markets for cattle markets. […] So, now we’re really focused on the crop development and conditions which are going to impact that new crop supply here come fall. […] If you look at the report for weekending June 12th, 61% of the nation’s crop was rated good to excellent. That’s three percentage points lower than last year. So, for benchmark it against last year, the crop isn’t as good this time of year, slightly below. It’s also slightly below the five-year average as well. […] So, we’re in a much weaker spot than we were a year ago or in really the last couple of years. […] But I always like to remind folks we have a whole growing season in front of us. There’s a lot that has to go right and a lot that can go wrong that could impact this year’s crop. Dr. Greg Eckerle (19:56) Can we have an expectation to see cows kill numbers increase, stay the same, or because we’re still in liquidation, I don’t expect them to decrease, so what kind of forecast in the cow kill numbers? Dr. Lee Schulz I’m glad you asked this question because I think there are a couple of keyways to really look at this data. So, as you look at beef cow slaughter year to date, we’re down about 12% compared to a year ago levels for the same period. That’s almost 200,000 beef cows over that period. This comes after last year, we were up 11%, right? Almost about 400,000 beef cows. Now you look at that and say, well, we’re killing a lot fewer beef cows this year, it must mean we may be seeing that turnaround phase. But I’ll remind us that we have a lot fewer cows than we did last year. […] Dr. Greg Eckerle (25:09) I guess the overall evaluation of the US marketplace seems to be on the upswing then what would be some of the main challenges coming within the next twelve to 18 months? Dr. Lee Schulz I think the big challenge for me is costs. I think when you look at it, not only feed costs as we talked about the crop market situation and potential for a lot of lower prices or at least lower prices as we get into the fall, which doesn’t mean that our cost of gains and dollars per cow are going to decrease all that much. I think they will decrease, but we’ve added a lot of cost to this industry over the last couple of years in the form of non-feed, variable costs, fixed costs, everything really has gotten much more expensive and those are rather sticky costs. […]

Timestamps and Summary Vicky Brisson (02:24) Can you please explain why and how cows may benefit from an increased supply of B vitamins? Dr. Mélissa Duplessis I'm going to focus on two B vitamins, folate and vitamin B12, as these two vitamins have been extensively studied by our research group […] Christiane Girard, who has tremendously increased the knowledge on B vitamins in dairy cows, demonstrated that plasma folate and vitamin B12 concentrations were at their lowest at calving and in early lactation, respectively. […] a few studies were conducted in order to evaluate the effects of supplementation in folic acid and vitamin B12 during the transition period and in early lactation on dairy cows’ health and performance. […] some showed a substantial increase in milk yield without affecting dry matter intake and plasma indicators of reserve mobilization. And some showed a decrease in plasma indicators of reserve mobilization without affecting dry matter intake and milk yield. […] Vicky Brisson (05:19) From a practical perspective, how can we ensure that the cows actually receive an adequate increased supply of B vitamins? Dr. Mélissa Duplessis One way is indeed to supplement B vitamins to the animals. Also, previous studies demonstrated that ruminal synthesis of B vitamins is affected by the cow diet and dry matter intake. Thus, it can be suggested that if ruminal synthesis is greater, this will benefit the cow as more B vitamins are available for absorption. Now, can we formulate a diet that optimizes B vitamin ruminal synthesis? It's a great question. […] Vicky Brisson (06:53) Your recently published papers collected data on mineral nutrition. Can you share with our audience what were the main findings of your study? Dr. Mélissa Duplessis We collected data on 100 Eastern Canadian dairy herds in order to compare dietary trace minerals in commercial settings to NRC recommendations. […] […] we observed that cobalt was fed at 405% over the recommendation, copper at 52% over the recommendation, manganese at 372 percent over the recommendation, and for zinc, it was 65% over the recommendation. This is important to note that these data represent the median, meaning that 50% of dairy herds were well above that. […] Vicky Brisson (08:51) How would a nutritionist use this knowledge to better balance minerals in their rations? Dr. Mélissa Duplessis First of all, forages are not routinely analyzed for trace mineral concentrations due to analysis constraints. Also, absorption coefficients of trace minerals are low. In a recent […], we obtained that more than 60% of nutritionists had intentionally formulated diets above trace mineral recommendations to ensure cow health and optimized reproduction performance. However, this is not clear in the literature that overfeeding trace minerals actually has benefits on cow health and reproduction. […] Vicky Brisson (10:55) Can you explain to our audience what is a living lab? Dr. Mélissa Duplessis (11:03) Living labs are open innovation ecosystems in real-life environments. […] Prior to the start of the project, producers and researchers should meet and discuss to create a sustainable project. Vicky Brisson (11:45) You recently concluded a project using the Living Lab approach, can you share what you did and what you learned so far?

Timestamps and Summary Chris Gwyn (04:01) Why the advocacy for safety related to silage management has become so important to you, both personally and professionally? Doug DeGroff It’s because I’m a silage avalanche survivor that it’s near and dear to my heart. I was young and quite confident and with an attitude of “it can’t happen to me.” But my luck ran out on August 27, 2009, while taking a solid sample that I’d done thousands of times […] Chris Gwyn (08:32) What are some of the key points in the silage safety that you feel are extremely important to share? Doug DeGroff I think the first thing I’d like to say it can happen to you or it could happen to your dairy or your feedlot. […] Once you know that, then you have to be intentional about it. If you’re a dairy owner or a feedlot owner, you have an obligation to those people who work on your business, whether they’re a full-time employee, a contract employee, maybe a silage harvester or your nutritionist or feed salespeople. […] If somebody gets seriously hurt or tragically killed, it’s very bad for your business financially. So training, talking to your employees, talking to these people that are going to be around your silage piles, hanging up, putting up signs, there’s so much you can do. And either you have a good silage safety management program, or you make excuses when somebody gets injured or killed. It’s one or the other. You really don’t have both. Chris Gwyn (11:53) What would you define as a good silage safety program? Doug DeGroff It starts with sitting down with the employees and going over the risks […] with anybody who’s going to be in the feed area. And not just the risk of it avalanching. There are other risks with silage. There are gases, there’s equipment driving around it all the time. […] Have some standard operating protocols at the time of harvest. […] When you have new employees, make sure you don’t wait until the next training session. They should have a course of what’s going on within days of being hired. […] Chris Gwyn (14:43) What should employees working around silage management be thinking and what do they need to do differently? Doug DeGroff Certain employees are there in front of piles every single day, multiple times a day. They’re the people with the highest risk because they have the highest exposure. So, they need to be aware of what could be happening when they’re going up, removing tires or removing plastic. It comes pretty good, if the owners haven’t done it, if an employee is asking: “Hey, can you get me a safety harness?”, “Can you get a cable that runs across the length of the pile?” […] I won’t recommend you pitch off bad feet anymore because God forbid somebody gets hurt. I’m the person who made the recommendation. I used to do that. I no longer do that. And I don’t support that. […] Chris Gwyn (18:58) What's your recommendation for safely sampling silage on dairies on feedlots? Doug DeGroff I’ll start off with what I used to do and why I did it. And then, I’ll tell you how stupid of an idea it was. I liked to sample the pile up and down. So, I would get in the loader of the bucket, and I would go up and down. I get to the top of the feed because that feed is different than this feed down here. And if I went straight down the middle of the pile, I would get arguably a very good representation of the pile. […] I had a five-gallon bucket and I put so many handfuls in every foot to eighteen inches and I mixed that feed up and then I put it in my bag, and I had an incredibly good representation of the pile. It was probably about as unsafe as you can get because at the bottom, the loader backs away because now I can get it. So, I’'m standing there for a few minutes, as much as I can reach, high and low. […] Now, all my dairies, they know exactly what to do. They’ll either face it with a facer or they’ll scrape it with a payloader and knock it and then what they’ll mix it up, spit it out. Then we put another five thousand pounds in it, mix it up, spit it out in a safe place. I would argue that is the best representation of the pile. […] Chris Gwyn (23:24) Key points that you feel are important when it comes to safety around silage management. Doug DeGroff The most important part of any solid safety program or any silage program is safety. […] We don’t spend enough time on safety until something happens. […] But there’s nothing real sexy about safety, but it’s so necessary. And we just have to keep that in mind. […]

Timestamps & Summary 1:56 As a young person growing up in dairy operations, tell me about the obstacles that you had to overcome in order to pursue a career in agriculture. Vicky Brisson I was really lucky growing up on my family's dairy farm, because I grew up with plenty of excellent role models, whether that be my parents being involved in the community, strong women when I was involved in forage as well. But I'd say also growing up in the Francophone community in Eastern Ontario, it was that language barrier. But beyond that language barrier, I'd say it's also a language barrier, that disconnect, between what we do in agriculture, and what the people who consume the food perceive agriculture as being. So, I'd say it's really about bridging that gap. We're translating that content, whether it be from English to French or French to English, or whether it be from someone who works and lives agriculture, to someone who consumes agriculture on a daily basis. […] 3:46 Talk to me about your thoughts on the importance of youth in agriculture. Vicky Brisson I'd say first and foremost, youth is the future, right? So, I think it's important to have everyone who's invested in the future of agriculture at the table. And what youth brings to that table is really our passion. We bring a different perspective as well. We're, perhaps some might call us naive, but I'd say we're starting from a blank page. And that allows us to bring new ideas, new perspectives to challenges that have been existing for decades for generations. And youth in agriculture also brings another level of connection of collaboration. […] 7:22 What recommendations would you give to the youth today in pursuing their dreams in agriculture? Vicky Brisson Perhaps my advice a year from now will change. But for now, I'd say that one I'm most certain will not change is: don't be afraid to ask for help. I think of you, Chris. I think of all my colleagues at Jefo. These are the people that have made it possible for me to step into the different growing opportunities that I've had throughout the last few years. That comes from asking for help. We're not alone. If you don't have the answer, other people will have it. […] You need to surround yourself with the right people, people who, again, you'll be able to go ask for help. But those people should also include a cheerleader and a hard truth-teller. Because sometimes you need that wake-up call, you need to be told the hard things. And then ultimately, in order to take action, sometimes it's easier when you're doing it with a peer, someone who will help you stretch to do those hard things to grow outside of your comfort zone. […] 12:56 What are the take-home messages you'd like to leave the audience listening today regarding youth and their journey in agriculture? Vicky Brisson I think between everyone there needs to be collaboration, there needs to be an exchange of experiences of perspectives. And that also comes through mentorship and learning by doing, not being afraid to take action. So really three simple takeaways, but that would be it for me today.

Timestamps & Summary 2:59 I was wondering if you could review some of the highlights for the audience to remind us of those key important areas. Dr. Bill Weiss For most minerals, what the committee tried to do is start at the cell. And we calculate, for example, how much mineral goes out and milk, how much mineral is free if an animal is growing, how much mineral is in that new tissue, and if she's pregnant, how much mineral is being deposited in the fetus, and we start there and we sum all that up. […] 8:29 What can you tell the audience today about the impact of mineral nutrition, whether positive or negative on the gut microbiome, and perhaps where some of the research should be focusing? Dr. Bill Weiss Bacteria need minerals, just like humans and cows need them. And we've known that for a long time so that the fact we have to feed the rumen bugs and the intestinal bugs in cows is well established. And in general, if you feed enough to the cow, the bacteria usually add enough and that's kind of where we left it. But more recently, there's been more and more studies looking at sources, not necessarily the amount of trace minerals but the source of the trace mineral. For example, organic versus sulfates or hydroxy versus sulfates, and so on. And some things we're finding at what I call the gross level is trace mineral affects fiber digestion, and fiber is digested only by bacteria so if you're altering fiber digestion, likely you're changing the room and population of bacteria. […] 13:09 What is a nutritionist should be looking for when looking to add chromium to a ruminant diet and the sources that they're utilizing? Dr. Bill Weiss I don't know other countries’ rules and regulations. But in the US, chromium propionate is the only one that's been approved. This is regulated by FDA because they're worried. I think they're most worried about environmental issues. But certain terms of chromium are also toxic. The form that we feed is not or not highly toxic. Other forms of chromium can actually be quite toxic. So, it's regulated in the US at point five milligrams per kilogram is the supplemental right. […] Chromium is one of these nutrients… We know cows need it. Because we can find proteins or substances within animals, not just cows, people, etc. that require chromium to work. But in the new NRC, which is now called NASEM, we don't give a recommendation for chromium. And people say: Well if it's an essential nutrient, why don't you do that? Well, part of the problem is no one's ever identified a chromium deficiency. A lot of cows are not fed supplemental chromium and they live very productive happy lives. So, it's if you can't produce a clinical deficiency, it's hard to say this is a requirement. Part of the problem is feeds have chromium. […] Measuring chromium in feeds is really hard. So, we have very poor data on actual chromium concentrations. […] 18:50 What are maybe three or four key take-home messages you'd like to leave the audience when they're thinking about mineral nutrition at the farm level that they need to consider? Dr. Bill Weiss One of the first things is, and I see a lot of diets and minerals are needed but too much is too much. And very often they're over-supplemented grossly in both minerals and vitamins. And this adds cost but these metals at some of these absurd levels are detrimental. […] The other thing is source does matter. As we do more and more stuff, the data is I think clearer on zinc than the other trace minerals that organic zinc or zinc from non sulfate sources, does things that zinc sulfate doesn’t. […] So, look at everything: water, mineral composition, your basal diet, and make decisions on sources based on those things. But I guess the biggest thing is: be reasonable. And both feed enough but don't feed too much.