In this episode, Deb Aoki reflects on a childhood immersed in manga and anime and how this experience, combined with her journalism background, amplifies her visual storytelling skills. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Deb Aoki? Origin Story Deb's current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Deb Aoki Outro ## Links
Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Deb's Website Deb On BlueSky Deb on LinkedIn Deb on Twitter Mangasplaining on Twitter Tangible UX Example of Picture books Deb did with Juniper Networks Manga Class for this Semester Mangasplaining Podcast Mangasplaining Substack Newsletter Okinawa - Mangasplaining Graphic Novel Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Jetpen Zebra Mild Liner highlighter Pens Jetpen Frixion Erasable markers Pigma Micron Pens Neuland Markers Sharpie Markers Muji Traveler's Notebook The Sketchnote Ideabook Moleskine Notebook Dotted or Blank sheet Notebooks by the Stack Maido Stationery [Maido-in-a-box] https://usa.kinokuniya.com/featured-stationery-maido-in-a-box Sekaido Art Supply in Tokyo LOFT Tokyu Hands Traveler's Factory Shop for Stationery and Travel Goods Traveler's Notebooks Traveler’s Factory Online Shop Traveler's Factory Shop Locations in Japan Tips Think of drawing as a form of alphabet and writing system versus an artistic system. You don't need to learn how to draw everything in the world. Just the stuff in your world. Be visual with fun, low-stakes things. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike, and I'm here with Deb Aoki. Deb, it's so good to have you on the show. Deb Aoki: Oh, thank you, Mike. It's good to see you. MR: You too. Deb and I have been kind of bouncing into each other on the interwebs for a while, and eventually, we met each other in Paris of all places. Good place to meet somebody. At the International Sketch Note camp in Paris in 2019, which I was thinking about that, today. That's pre-pandemic. So that was like— DA: Yes. MR: - the world before. The before times. So really different. DA: That's true. MR: - mindset and everything a little bit. But anyway, so Deb is just a multi-talented person, and we're gonna talk with her about who she is and her journey and sort of get some lessons from her as well and chitchat about all kinds of stuff, I'm sure. So let's start out, Deb, tell us who you are, what you do, and then how did you get here. What's your origin story from when you were a little girl to this moment? DA: Oh, gosh. That's interesting. Well, I think the best place to start is I'm originally from Hawaii. I grew up—I'm a third-generation Japanese-American, so I was surrounded by Japanese culture, but I kind of don't speak Japanese fluently. I can read and speak some. MR: Okay. DA: But, you know, the nice thing about it, about growing up in Hawaii, I was surrounded by things like manga and anime much earlier than a lot of other people. And so, the nice part about that is that as a young girl, I got to read a lot of comics for girls from Japan. MR: Oh. DA: And in all those comics, it would kind of give you this sense of, "Oh, this is the comic artist you love, and here's how to draw like her, or you can be a comic artist too." So I got a lot of great tips from that. And, you know, like, it fueled this dream of becoming an illustrator or comic artist from a young age. And when I've compared notes with other peers at the same time for American comics, comics for girls were going away or almost faded out. So I was really lucky in that, you know, my love of comics came that way and was sustained that way. So I've always loved to draw, but, you know, comics part is the part where you know, sometimes you draw for yourself, but with comics, I found out early on you're telling stories and you share those stories with your friends and they're like, "Oh, I wanna see more. I wanna see more." MR: Mm-hmm. So you keep making more. DA: Yeah. So it's kind of fun. It's a good way for people who normally don't, you know, to talk about themselves be able to kind of put themselves out there. MR: So I wanna break in for a minute and assume maybe there's somebody who's never heard of Manga or anime. Maybe they've heard them, they're not exactly sure. Like, what are they and are they the same thing? Are they different? And give us sort of a baseline to that. And then probably, I guess the last thing is obviously comic culture, manga, anime culture in Japan is very different than any kind of culture in the U.S. In a lot of ways in the U.S., comics are seen for little kids, and they're dismissed. Where I think in Japan, they're revered and it's kind of an art form, right? So talk a little bit about that too. DA: Oh, well, the simplest way to put it is manga is the comics, like, you know, the paper page, you know, panels and word balloons. And anime is the animated version, like the cartoons. MR: Got it. Okay. That's easy to remember. DA: Yeah. And so, you know, a lot of times a lot of the anime is based on the original manga stories, but there's also anime that is original, like the Miyazaki works are all original stories created just for that. MR: I see. DA: So there's no manga that came before it with pretty—yeah. In general. So, but I guess the way to think about it is one of my agent friends in Japan explained that the movie industry, the entertainment industry in Japan is not as big and well-funded as it is in, you know, the U.S. So their best storytelling talent goes into manga. MR: Really. DA: The editors the writers, the artists. And manga artists compared to, say American comic creators like a lot of who work for the big companies. And the big companies here, they work for hire. Meaning if you draw Superman's story, you get paid per page. And that's kind of it. MR: I see. DA: You know, that's someone else's character. You get to play in that playground, but you didn't create that playground and you don't own that playground. MR: Yeah, I know, for sure. DA: Whereas in manga, what they encourage is every creator comes up with their own characters and story and world, and they just run with it. From beginning to end, volume one to volume, hundreds, whatever it is their characters, their story, their vision, and usually they are. So they own it, you know, from beginning to end. One of the other key differences is that manga artists—well, not all of them are super successful. Some of them are, you know, top tax bracket people in Japan. MR: Wow. DA: So the scale of the business is so different. And that manga is for everybody. There's manga for kids, manga for, you know, business people, manga for housewives, manga that explains how to, you know, manage your money or run a business, manga about dealing with parents or Alzheimer's, you know, silly manga, funny, you know, serious stuff, historical manga. I tell people, it's like manga is like movies. It's just a way to tell stories and what kind of stories can be almost anything. MR: Hmm. That's really fascinating. And I love that it's so diverse. DA: And it's fun. MR: You know, it's almost like a whole publishing. It's like we think about paperback books or nonfiction all wrapped up. It's the same thing except as visualized and the creator own it. Yeah, in some sense. DA: Actually, I went to internet too 'cause one of the things that I found is that—I teach classes in drawing for business people. And I've done this in U.S., India, and Japan. And the thing that I found fascinating is the people I taught in Japan were so visually literate from the get-go. I almost didn't have to teach them much at all. The Indian one, anywhere may be second, but the people I teach in North America seem to be maybe the least comfortable. MR: Yeah. Interesting sort of resistance in a way, right? Yeah. Resistance to that visualization, which is, I guess sketchnoting opportunity sort of brings that to them. But it's more of an opportunity in some ways. Huh. Well, I've sort of derailed you with that, but I thought it might be helpful for someone who maybe is not into that to know, like, they've heard those words, but what do they mean? And it's kind of nice to have some context into— DA: Oh, sure. MR: - how you grew up and now you understand that culture, that very visual culture that Deb sort of grew up in. Let's continue with your story. So you're a little girl, you're surrounded by this manga and anime, and then how did that influence you? And like, were there big moments where you had to make choices where you kind of went with the flow and you ended up in a place like, "Hey, look where I ended up?" DA: Yeah. I guess that's kinda weird. 'Cause I started drawing comics—I used to just draw comics for myself and for my friends. Then I moved from Hawaii, then I moved to New York, went to art school for a little bit. And I would write home letters to my mom and I would have little drawings of the things that I would see, like the things that people would say to me like, "Oh, you're from Hawaii." You know. Or things I would run into like, "Oh my God, I can't find, you know, Japanese rice at the supermarket, or why spam is so expensive here." You know, all these things that I'd write letters and draw pictures from my mom. And then when I came back to Hawaii to finish my college education, I realized that, you know, it's, you know, taking a passive approach to my education. Like just going to a lecture, do the homework, come home. I realized, oh, actually there's all kinds of other opportunities. It's college that I could take advantage of. So I went to the school newspaper and I said, "Hey, I'd like to draw a comic strip." And they said, sure. So that was good in that I got, you know an experience having to draw three times a week, something, right? And then getting people's feedback. People saying, "Oh, I love this, or I didn't get that joke. "So that was a change. And then I met all these people who were in the journalism department. So I went to school for art. I mean, I went, did printmaking and whatever. One of the extracurricular activities I did was run the campus art gallery. So I had to learn how to write press releases. MR: Oh, wow. Okay. So writing, yeah. DA: Doing promotions, making posters, and you know, writing up paperwork to get people to be in the show and ascribe the show. So all of that led to after I graduated college, to me doing PR for art galleries, for my friends art galleries. MR: Interesting. DA: Which then led to me writing for the newspaper art reviews, music reviews. I did a comic strip. Like I said, it was—and a lot of people who recommended me were people I went to school within the journalism department at University of Hawaii. So everything was kind of like, I would make it public what I did, or what I was interested in and then people would connect the dots. They would say, "Oh, Deb, you like to write, how about this? Oh, Deb, you know, you draw a cartoon, would you like to draw your cartoon here?" So it was all kind of making it visible to others. So I would run it to people, other artists and other cartoonists who would kind of—you know, I mean, this is your 20s, right? You're competitive. MR: Yeah. Yeah. DA: And they're like, "How come you get all these opportunities?" MR: Ah. DA: And it's like, oh, that's because I put my sign out by the side of the road that said, "Hi, I do this." And people saw it and would say, "Oh, I have this opportunity. Why don't you?" But if you're just sitting in your room drawing your comics and waiting for someone to knock on your door— MR: To discover you. DA: - it won't happen. MR: Yeah. It can't happen. DA: And this is before the internet, right, where you could put stuff on Instagram and whatever. So that was one of the key lessons. And then having a journalism background, you know, learning about how to write a new story and do good interviews, ask questions, and be curious. So when I did finally move to New York to the mainland, I got work doing writing. You know, more like I was like an admin assistant at a game company. MR: Okay. DA: Where I was a temp at an ad agency. Then it kind of led to—I moved to Seattle, and this was at the time—it was like I'd say late '90s. MR: Right. At the grunge music period just started to happen, right? DA: Yeah. So then I got a job at Microsoft working at MSN, where a lot of other former journalists where working. So I wrote headlines for the news, for the homepage, all kinds of stuff like that. I did you know, case studies for SQL server. MR: Wow. DA: A lot of writing. So that's when my path diverged a little bit, right. Where most of the camp career was in writing. Content writing, UX writing. And then my drawing was was kind of, you know, something fun I did on the side. And then where it all converged later was when I worked at eBay and I would be in these meetings, you know, having to write, you know copy for different apps or different features. And then they would explain stuff from a technical point of view or from a business goal point of view, and I was like, "I have to write for what the user's gonna do, what the user's gonna see." MR: Right. Gotta translate. DA: So then I would just at a certain point go, "I'm not understanding, or you're not giving me the information I need." So I would grab a pen and just go up to the whiteboard and go, okay, so user comes here, clicks this, comes here, does this, sends an email, da dah, dah. Like all this stuff. And then what happens here? Or then what happens when there's an error or they fill out something wrong, or? MR: Yeah, magic goes here. DA: And then sometimes I would say, "Do they do this?" Then sometimes the product manager go like, "Yes, exactly. That's how that works." And then an engineering from the back who normally wouldn't speak would say, "No, actually that won't work out. And actually, no that's impossible." And would to the product manager and goes, "No, the database won't do this, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What are you talking about?" MR: Yeah. You're making assumptions. Yeah. DA: So I kind of got into this, I don't know, some kind of small degree of notoriety for that. MR: So you'd facilitate these discussions, right? DA: Yeah. Like you go, "Oh, you know, Deb draws." MR: Ah, yeah. That came out DA: Then what led to is I had a colleague in the user research department who was saying, "Your skills are perfect for what we need." So she would bring me into workshops where they were trying to come up with new features, and they would say, "Oh, can you draw storyboards that show how people are using this or might use this? Can you draw personas? You know, who the customer is?" So from that, the magical thing is I started getting invited to meetings earlier in the design process. MR: Yeah, because they wanted you to help them to guide them, right? DA: Yeah. And I got involved with business strategy earlier. I got involved with, you know, coming along on user research type projects where I'd get to know who the users were by listening to them and, you know, observing them. For content people, content strategists in UX design, if designers complain about not having a seat at the table or not getting respect. Content designers are even lower than that. You know what I mean? MR: Right. Because nobody thinks the content till the thing's about to launch. That was always my experience. DA: All the alarm ipsums, right? MR: Yeah. DA: And then it would just be a blank placeholder copy or, "Oh, we'll fill that in later." And then it would come to me and like— MR: Later it would come. Yeah. DA: And I'd go, "Ah, wait, why do you have this step before this step? And do we need this extra page and all that stuff?" And I bring up these things and people would say, "Well Deb, those are excellent points, but it's too late. We've built it already. So can you write around it?" MR: Oh boy. DA: So, you know, when I've given talk about my drawing to content strategists, I tell them, this is your little tool to get in the room earlier and for you to inject the point of view of the user. Because if it's like, "Oh, hi, I'm the content strategist, and this is my opinion," you tend to not get listened to as much as— MR: Right. You do backup. DA: - here's what users going through. And then you show these pictures, and then they imagine they go, "Oh." If they can put themselves in the space of that user and go like, "Oh, that would suck. Huh? Oh, we have to change that." MR: It puts the burden back on them and not on you, right? It's not your opinion. It's the user having this issue. Oh, how are you gonna solve it? DA: Right. So, I guess since then I've been discovering this intersection of visual storytelling and what the difference it makes in these types of situations. And, you know, being able to inject humanity into our product design decisions. Which tends to get lost sometimes, surprisingly. MR: Hmm. That could be a good encouragement for people that are listening who are maybe in non—like, they like visual thinking, but they are trying to find a way to integrate it into their daily life. Being the person who draws things is a huge opportunity. Anybody can do it really in any position. DA: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be fancy. I've had several colleagues that do very simple storyboards and seen it make huge differences in product direction or product implementation. MR: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you could be a CPA that draws, right? Who you can visualize, you know, numeric stuff in a way that people understand it better. That's a huge value. DA: What's the guy? There's a famous economist at Berkeley. He does a lot of drawings. MR: Was his name Larry something? DA: Oh, I'm— MR: Trying to think. It'll come to us as soon as we stop recording. DA: Yeah. I'll remember. But it's interesting 'cause he does a lot of whiteboard drawing with pictures. MR: Uh-huh. DA: And so Fanta graphics, which is a comic publisher, they published I dunno, like 11 Rockets and Daniel Clowes comics. Published a book of his whiteboard drawings. MR: Really? DA: The Body Economics. They're fabulous. MR: Wow. Well, that's pretty cool. We'll have to see if we can find the name of that book and we'll include it in the show notes so we can, I'll check it out. DA: Hmm. MR: So it sounds like the work that you're doing is a lot like this, but I think you mentioned that you recently have become independent. So tell us a little bit about, you know, moving from being employed in large companies or small companies and then shifting to being a contractor and a freelancer. How does that change, and how does Deb, the person who draws kind of reputation, how has that helped you in that regard? DA: I guess, you know, it's been tricky for me. Partly because my mix of skills makes it such that there isn't ever a job for me that asks for that, right? MR: Mm. DA: I usually get in as a content strategist and they find that I can draw and that's a bonus. MR: Got it. Yeah. DA: It's kind of cracking the egg and you get two yolks kind thing. MR: Yeah. DA: But the stuff I was really enjoying was the drawing stuff. But there is almost no job like that. Specifically, that. MR: Right. DA: So what I've been since—and you know, as we were talking earlier that there's been a lot of tech layoffs lately in Silicon Valley where I live in the San Francisco Bay area. So with the last round of layoffs that I went through, it's gotten harder and harder to find the next job lately. And in the interim, I've been doing more consulting work or more like one-off things. I teach what I call simple sketching for user experiences or storyboarding to various tech companies on a consulting basis. I do it through a company called Tangible UX. So I've done that. And then I've done things like, I did picture books for Juniper Networks to explain network computing and network security and AI. So that was fun. I get little interesting challenges. But the other thing that has happened lately that has brought me back full circle is that manga now is the number three bestselling comic book category in North America. MR: Wow. Wow. DA: Since the pandemic you know, people started staying home and binging anime on Netflix. That led to people buying more manga, and manga sales quadrupled in the last two years. MR: Wow. So it's been discovered in some sense by the West in a way that it hadn't been in the past. I know it's been around, I've seen it around for a long time, but it's kind of a niche, you know, thing. DA: Yeah. So now it's gotten super—and then there's a live-action one-piece TV series on Netflix that was super successful. So all of a sudden, people are paying attention to Manga. So over the last six months or so, I've gotten a lot of people reaching out to me wanting me to explain manga to them. Or, you know, to like—I'm working with a company to make their online manga app and website more sticky and more engaging. So that's a UX thing. But I've also been working with—I have a podcast myself called Mangasplaining. It's basically four friends, and one of my friends, his name is Chip Zdarky, he is a comic book creator. So he writes Daredevil and Batman. MR: Wow. DA: And so he's a very much a Western comics guy. And during the pandemic, he said, "What's this?" Before the pandemic, we all went to Japan together, and then we all dragged him around to all these manga places. And he was like, "What is this?" And like, "Oh my God, there's so much of it." And, "Oh my God, I feel so small." You know. And so, when we came back and the pandemic started, we started this weekly book club for him where we would I introduce him to manga one book at a time. MR: And he would go through it and give his explanations or his reflections on it, I guess. DA: Yeah. And he would sometimes pick up on things— MR: Ask questions. DA: - that surprised us completely. Like, "Wait, what?" Or he would respond to things that we wouldn't expect. You know, there's a manga called Akira which almost everybody—it's a big epic sci-fi dystopian. MR: Nikita. Yeah. DA: But then they thought, "Oh, no brainer. He'll love this." But then he ended up liking a really slice of life stuff. Like one of his favorites was The Way of the House husband, which is about a Yakuza hitman who retires and becomes a house husband for his wife who works in marketing and all the things he goes through to, you know, cook and clean. MR: And prep the dinner. Yeah. Yeah. DA: And deal with his mitch and it's cats and the nosy Neighbors. It's really funny. So it's been a delight to you know, have this with him. And then we started publishing some manga. Like we published a book called Okinawa by Susumu Higa. And it's a bunch of short stories about Okinawa before, during, and after the war, but from a very human point of view. It's really interesting. I mean, I'm half Okinawa myself. I've never been to Okinawa. So that's been really rewarding. The book came out this fall and it's been on a bunch of shortlists for books over the past couple—from, you know, like even the Washington Post and things like that. MR: Wow. DA: Won a couple of awards. So, you know, like, that's been really neat. And then the other thing that came up is I'm now teaching once a week at California College of Art. MR: Okay. DA: I'm teaching a class on manga history, context and creation for their master of fine art and comics. So, what's been interesting with that is that I have to use my facilitation and design sprint training— MR: Everything. Yeah. DA: - to try to come up with exercises for these students to help them, you know, understand how to think, how manga creators think about story and character and page layout. 'Cause these are all things I feel instinctively. MR: Right. How do you describe them? Yeah. DA: Right. Because so kinda like when you did the Sketchnote Handbook, right, there was something you were doing and you were doing and you trial by error. But then when you have to write a book, you have to explain it. You know by similar— MR: Yeah, that was interesting. DA: How is that for you, by the way? I mean. MR: It's a lot like what you're talking about. It was like, well, I've been doing this for a long time, how do I—you know what's really funny is I'm always been a writer in addition to a visualizer. So I kind of wrote the whole thing first. Like, for me, its sort of worked in my head and I wrote it as a script, wrote it all out. And then once I saw—I let the words pour out, then I could say, "Oh, okay. I could see that visually would look like this, and I could use that sample here." And I started like, bringing all the visuals in and then melding it together. So it sort of started the backbone was words, and then I added images into it to make it happen. So that seemed to work well for me. Both of books worked the similar way where I wrote the script first. DA: Amazing. And it was so amazing 'cause I remember the book first came out and seeing how people just so resonated with it, right? MR: Yeah. DA: And so wanted to learn more, and it's led to so many things for you, so that's so exciting to see. MR: Yeah. And it's in a weird place where I guess it's sort of like a manga. I mean, it's not technically manga, but I mean, sort of explaining myself in, not frames of a comic book, but it's not so far away. I mean, if you look at it, it's visualization and words. And, you know, I'm a huge comic fan from when I was a kid. Huge Daredevil fan, Spider-Man. And so, you know, that had a huge influence on me and the way I looked at things and the way I framed things comes from that. So, you know, there's some universal stuff there, and then there's I'm sure variation between Western and Eastern comics and the way you think, which is probably part of what you're teaching, right? I suppose. DA: A little bit. Yeah, but there's a lot of commonalities. MR: Yeah, I think so. A lot of it's human, right? So it's human stories, which in the beginning, middle, and end. There's conflict, there's resolution. Those common things exist inside the story. Then it's maybe more the details of expression that change a little bit. So that's really fascinating. DA: It's kind of fun for me, you know? Because when you're—because all of these worlds for me, they seem different and I meet different people within them. You know, the comic people I meet are different than the UX design people that I meet than the journalism people that I meet than the people from the Japanese culture that I meet. But what's fun about being in all these different worlds is sometimes is seeing where the common threads and then applying things you see and observe in one world and applying it in another. Like some of the user experience, design, and innovation, you're dealing with people and products that sometimes—the world is changing around them. And they either resist or they accept and they evolve. So for example, you know, like the Kodak example, right? MR: Mm-hmm. DA: The film company. The film developing company. And they had a digital option to make a digital camera at some point, and then they refused because they didn't wanna kill their film business. MR: Yeah. DA: Right. So I see that happening with comics now. The pamphlet comics is an old style of reading and consuming comics that started with Newsstands, but now they're only specialty comic shops, so you can find them. But manga has been succeeding because manga is in a little book format, can be sold at any bookstore. MR: I see. DA: So I see manga at Target, I see manga at bars and Noble. So that's part of why it's, you know, kind of overtaking it. MR: The friction is sort of not the same. DA: Not the same. And then it's cheaper. You can buy a whole volume of manga of 200-something pages for like $10. And then you'll get, you'll get a 30-page full-color comic for $6. So like all these—and then I see like what's happening with scrolling comics now, where it's designed for scrolling. MR: A screen. Yeah. DA: And even two-page comics don't work well. So there's all kinds of—I guess, being an observer in this industry and seeing the struggles they're going through, the transitions that's happening, and some of it's relating to customers. Or their reading habits, the devices they're reading on, the stories they wanna read, making easy entry points. If you wanna start with Spider-Man, where do you start and why is Spider-Man look so different now than he did in the movies? Doesn't align. But like with one piece, it's just a big pirate comic. It's like a hundred-something volume now. If you wanna get started, read Volume One, keep going into Volume 108. And it is the same as in the TV, as in anime. So, you know, it's the kind of thing where I look at it go, "Oh, it's a usability problem." MR: Yeah, it is. DA: And most people in the American comics business are—forgive me, I love them, but some of them who are kind of in that Kodak film moment. MR: Yeah. They're kind of trapped in some ways. Trapped in amber in a way. DA: They're a little frightened by what's to come. MR: Yeah. DA Yeah. So it's fun. It's interesting to observe and see it through that lens. MR: Hmm. I would think that American, and I guess Western comic makers, now that we're really off on a tangent. They must really be seeing the success of manga, they must know the stats and why it's working. Are they just writing it off? "Oh, that's just a Japanese culture thing. That's why it's popular." But I think what we're seeing is it's coming to the West and it's popular and there are probably user experience reasons why, like, you sort of cited some. Like, it's a pocketbook that I could carry. It's about the size of a paperback. It doesn't look outta place. It's not, you know, a newsprint thing that's bigger and it's hard for me to fit it any place or, you know, the value is better. DA: It's fragile. MR: Yeah. DA: Yes. MR: Or maybe I can look it on my—I have an iPad so I can read on my manga there, right? And I think that's where maybe they're similar, right? I would guess. Western comics have adapted to, you know, going on digital devices. But yeah, I would guess that eventually they will be forced to look at manga because It's successful. DA: They're looking at it. Oh, they already are. MR: Yeah. DA: I mean actually some of the—and also kids comics too, right? A lot of the comics, superhero comics has evolved to the point where it's only really targeting you know, men 30 to 50. MR: Right. Yeah. DA: And then there's a whole universe of comics for kids where they don't care about Spider-Man or Batman. They like DogMan or they like Reyna Tel stories, so they're not interested in the superhero stuff the way that their uncles and fathers, and grandfathers were. Like you see, comics is really dear to me, and I think visual literacy is so important, you know, not just for entertainment. I see how it makes me a better communicator. You know, I tell people that when I draw visual diagrams, I get people's attention 'cause people love watching people draw. MR: Yeah. Yeah. DA: You know, it's like seeing magic appear on a screen. And then the other part is that it brings a mood of lightness into the room and fun, which most meetings don't have. But also too, it's kind of—I think the things that move with creativity and collaborative—one of the things I tell when I give them my talk on how to draw for business, I'll show them like, here's my pretty examples, here's the finished storyboards, here's all this stuff, and then I show them but here's how it usually starts. And I show my super messy, fast whiteboard drawings that I'm drawing when I'm getting in a room and people are shouting out things at me like, "Oh, and they do this, and oh, they do this." And I just have to draw fast. And I said, "Oh, the messy is good. 'Cause the messy says you can participate too." MR: Yes. DA: Or nothing here is final, right? MR: Yeah. DA: I've actually had people actually step up, grab the eraser, wipe away what I drew and draw what they want. MR: Which is great. That's like what you want. That's like the ideal, right? DA: Exactly. And I thought if I drew it pretty and nice, one, it would take me too long. So I wouldn't capture the conversation. But the other part is that then people go like, "Oh, Deb works so hard on that, I can't mess with it. It's art." MR: It becomes rigid. DA: Yeah. And it's like, "I don't have the right to touch this or mess with it." So the messy invites levels of playing field and says, "I'm not attached to this emotionally. This is a tool for us to collaborate and communicate." MR: Yeah. That's pretty cool. And I think in some ways, the messy stuff, I've been finding, I dunno if it's 'cause I'm getting older or whatever, but like the messy stuff, I'm way more attracted to than the fancy. I mean, not that I don't appreciate the pretty stuff or enjoy it, but there's something about—like, I can see in the way somebody's thinking by the rough sketching they're doing, and it's a little bit loose and it just feels more alive in some ways, right? As you do versioning of it and make it more tight and more perfect, it sort of becomes rigid and fixed. And that's what's in people's heads too, right? So if you can capture that loose, you know, sketchy nature, there's something attractive about that actually. You know, it's gotta be at least recognizable. I mean, if it's so messy that you don't know what it is, I mean, that's maybe at the other end of the spectrum, but like somewhere in the middle is a nice balance to strike if you can. DA: And it's human, right? MR: Mm-hmm. DA: It's human and it has life in it, and you can't help but, you know, find that fascinating. MR: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Well, that's really cool. It's so fun to hear how you've sort of—I think all the guests that I have when I look, they sort of collect all these experiences and knowledge and, you know, bring them together. And a lot of times later in their careers as they become to their peak of their career, suddenly they're drawing from all those things. Learning how to write, visualization, how do you communicate, how do you convince people? How do you observe? Like all those things are coming into one activity, and that you're bringing your whole self to that situation or that problem. DA: Mm-hmm. MR: And people trust you. Like, oh, this person's gonna help you solve it because they're bringing everything they have. So that's kind of cool to see that, you know, if you're in the beginning of your career, the goal is to kind of gather these experiences and don't think about like your love of like manga as a side thing that you can't bring into your work experience. You can, that's gonna influence. And there could be a valuable place if you are creative about how you think about it, which is kind of what Deb is doing. DA: Yeah. I've given this talk to university students over the past couple of years. Like Christina Wodke, she's also a well-known visual thinker. She teaches HCI, human-computer interaction. MR: Right. She was on the show years ago. I should probably have her back on. DA: You should. She's doing great stuff. They're teaching a game design class over there. MR: Nice. DA: She invites me over once a semester to teach one of her classes that gets into storyboarding. MR: Nice. DA: And what's really fun about that is when I talk with my students, the ones that really come up to me afterward or pepper me questions tend to be people who come to me like, "I draw too. You mean I can bring this into my work?" MR: Yeah. Yes, definitely. DA: Or like, "Wow, you mean that's valuable?" And I go, "Yes." MR: Oh yeah. That's cool. That's really cool. So I wanna shift a little bit in our discussion towards your favorite tools. I'm gonna start with analog first 'cause there's so many analog tools that exist. And you being into manga and anime, you probably have some really great Japanese influence tools that you probably like for your work, which maybe people can explore. So why don't you just unleash us all the cool tools that you like? DA: Well, some of my favorites are some that are not as easy to find in U.S., but they are findable. MR: Okay. DA: One is a mild-liner highlighter pen. These are pastel light-colored highlighter pens. They come in a wide range of colors like soft pink, soft aqua, two shades of gray, a dark gray, and a light gray. MR: That would be really useful for sure. DA: Yeah. And they're water-based pens, they don't smell. And because they're highlight pens, they're light enough that you can see words underneath it. MR: I got it. DA: Like a lot of American highlighter pens are like this fluorescent yellow. MR: Bold. Yeah. DA: Too heavy. MR: In case you're blind or something, right? DA: It's hard to use for storyboarding. When I teach the storyboarding class, I say you need to have at least a gray pen or a lighter color pen. So I'll say if you can't find the gray pen, use those light blue or lavender. And that's a good substitute for the gray. MR: Mm-hmm. DA: But the mild liner pens have a whole spectrum of light colors that you can use for sketchnoting. So you can get those from—there are Japanese companies like Maido, M-A-I-D-O. They're in Kinonuniya stores. If you're near one of those Japanese bookstores, Maido is their stationary section. And they have a Maido-in-a-box thing where you can get a stationary subscription box. MR: They send you things, huh? DA: And they'll send you a new mix of interesting stationary items from Japan every month. MR: Interesting. DA: The other one is jet pens. MR: Right. They're one of my favorites. Jet pens are great. DA: They're a terrific source of these things. So they have that. And then my other one is Frixion pens. MR: Oh yes. Erasable. Yeah. DA: Erasable. And they have both ballpoint and felt tip pens, different widths. They also have highlighter pens that are erasable and they're erasable by friction, which is the heat— MR: The heat, yeah. DA: - of the rubbing. They have this little hard rubber thing on the end of the pen, and when it erases, it's not like American erasers where it's like you rub it and then like all these little crumbs come up. It's just the rubbing creates heat that erases. MR: The heat and it kind of evaporates or something like that. DA: It just goes invisible. MR: Yeah. Interesting. It disappears. DA: So they have like a ballpoint pens too. They have gray ones too which is nice. So that's really good for you know sketchnoting, I think. So I use those with conjunction with Pigma Micron pens which are pigment black pens or I use Sharpies. Sharpies are permanent markers. Because the highlighters and the Frixion pens are water-based. MR: And they don't interact with each other. DA: They're microns, you know, they don't smear. MR: Mm-hmm. DA: That's the main things I use for sketch notes. MR: Isn't the other challenge with Frixion is because of heat? Like, you don't wanna leave it in your hot car on a summer afternoon 'cause all your notes will evaporate. DA: Yeah. MR: It was also the pen that was included with the Rocketbook or still is included with Rocketbook. And I remember the very early ones, you would like put it in the microwave and you could erase all your notes and then start over again with a blank book. DA: That's right. Yeah. You gotta watch out with that. And actually, I've had the Frixion pens, some of the color, felt ones for a while, and it does die out. Like the pigment somehow dies out. MR: It dry dries up or something, or it fades. DA: Then when I write with it, all I get is clear. I'm not sure why. But again, this is like a case where I've had these Frixion pins maybe for four years and not used them regularly, so. MR: It just broke down over time probably. DA: Yeah. I don't know whether I have to—'cause you know the whiteboard marker trick, right? Where you put a string at the end of the whiteboard marker and you whip it over your head. MR: It moves all the pigment to the tip, right? DA: Correct. MR: It's centripetal force, I think. DA: Yeah. Yeah. That's a neat little trick. So I've been trying that with that. MR: Hmm. DA: Oh, the other one is I love the Neuland pens. MR: Oh, they're great. Yeah. DA: Yeah. The water-based pens. 'cause you can refill them. MR: Yep. They're permanent as well. Many of the inks are permanent. Especially the—well these guys here, I'm showing the orange ones— DA: Yeah. The black pens are permanent. MR: -the outliners. Yeah. These are great. DA: And then you can also mix your own colors 'cause they have the colors— MR: Little bulbs, you can kind of mix 'em. And they have blank pens that have no pigment in them. And you can make your own thing. Just, you know— DA: And it's really fun. MR: - measure in grams the amount of ink you use 'cause you might have to refill that thing if you need a match. DA: Yeah. MR: What about paper and notebooks and stuff like that? DA: Oh, I've been using your sketchnote notebooks by the way, on tracks. MR: Oh really? Okay. DA: They're really lovely. Otherwise, I use Moleskins. The thin ones 'cause I don't like necessarily carrying a big book everywhere I go. MR: Right. DA: The other thing I'll do sometimes is—other—oh, Muji. MR: Muji. Yeah. That's a great store. They're in some big cities. Yeah. New York City is the one I've been to too. Yeah. DA: One of my favorites is they have these notebooks with plain brown paper cardboard cover. With a little elastic around it. **MR: Oh, okay. DA: To keep the book shut. MR: Yeah. Okay. DA: But the brown paper cover is so nice 'cause when you—I travel to Japan quite frequently and at a lot of the museums that you go to or the tourist attractions, they'll have a little stamp pad. MR: Oh. And you can stamp it. DA: A little commemorative stamp where, "I went to this place." So when I had my little travel journey from Japan, I just pick up all those books and then every place that has little stamp pad, I stamp it MR: Like an art passport. DA: Yeah. They also have Travelers Notebooks. Have you heard of those? MR: Yes. I know about the Travelers Notebooks. Yeah. Those are great. DA: The Traveler's Notebooks are really from Japan. MR: Yes. DA: So they have Traveler Notebooks stores just for them. MR: If you don't know what these are, it's typically the traditional one is a piece of leather that was cut and folded. So it's like a cover. And then there's a string inside of it. And then you get these notebooks and they're staple bound, and you slide the notebook into the string and that's what holds it into the leather cover. So you can kind of swap 'em in. You can stack up more than one and you can kind of make it whatever you like. They have all kinds of inserts too, right? Like plastic things with zips. You can slide in and like all kinds of crazy stuff that you can add and make the notebook what you like. DA: Calendar insert, calendar, mini booklets, grids, dots. So you can make your own customized notebook so that you can slip things in and out. MR: Yeah. DA: It's a really nice system. And it's basically about the size of a—looks like about the size of an—a little bit bigger than an airline ticket. MR: Yeah, that's true. That's the big one. I know that they have a passport-size one too. It's a little bit shorter. DA: Uh-huh. MR: So if you need a pocketable thing, you could go in that direction as well. DA: It's really nice system. It's because it's from Japan and imported, it's not the cheapest. MR: Right. DA: I think which is cheaper, but on the bright side for all of the people who like Japanese stationary, the yen to dollar exchange rate is the lowest it's ever been in about 20 years. MR: Maybe I need to go to JetPens this week. DA: Yes. It's at like 150 yen to the dollar now. Typically, before last year even, it was like closer to 100, 110 yen to a dollar. When you go to Japan, it's like you're getting a 30, 40 percent discount on everything. MR: This is the time to book your tickets to Japan, everybody. DA: You should go to Japan. Oh, and if you do go to Japan, make sure you go to Shinjuku Sanchome area 'cause that's where they have the Sekaido. Sekaido is a five-story art supply store. MR: Oh boy. You'd never leave that place. DA: It is the best. And then otherwise, there's also Tokyo Hands, which has a mix of art supplies and stationery and office stuff, and home craft things, like all kinds of craft kits. And then there LOFT, which also has a great stationary and gift selection. So it is a stationary lover's dream. MR: I bet. DA: Please go to Japan. MR: Yeah. Spend some money there. You definitely will in those stores. DA: Absolutely. MR: Wow. That's really cool. You're reminding me—I can see my Travelers Notebook right over here. I haven't used it for a while. Kind of encouraging me to maybe get some—so what's nice about those is not only can you buy books that fit there, but you can make your own, right? If you have paper you like, you can cut it to the right size and fold it and just slide it right in and you've got a notebook, so. It's pretty cool. DA: Absolutely. It's really nice. And the leather makes it like, you know, an object you keep and get attached to over time. MR: Right. DA: But the inserts make it infinitely reusable. MR: Yeah. It's got the lasting part and then the transient part. DA: Yeah. It's nice. MR: Right. Hmm. Interesting. Well, that's really cool. And I was gonna go back and you use the thin Moleskin, I'm assuming you mean the staple-bound ones? DA: Yeah. Not the hard-bound ones. MR: Not the hardbound ones. Got it. 'Cause they can slip in a pocket or a purse or bag or something. Not so bulky. DA: Yeah. 'Cause when I'm travelling, you know weight matters, right? MR: Yeah. Oh yeah. DA: And so you just wanna be able to have something on the fly. MR: Yep. Cool. Well, that's really great. I'll follow up and make sure we get as many as we can in the show notes for people, the places, and the tools so you can go check 'em out and spend some money. Sorry. DA: You won't regret it. MR: Yeah. People that listen to this podcast, probably I spend a lot of their money. Sorry about that. So I would love to hear some tips from you. We like to make some part of the podcast practical. I frame it with, let's assume there's a visual thinker, whatever they are, comic book artist, sketchnoter, or graphic record, it could be just someone kind of curious, and they're starting to do this, but they feel maybe they he hit a plateau or they just need a little encouragement. What would be three things you would tell that person to give them a little encouragement? DA: I guess, you know, 'cause I come from writing background and I tend to see people who get really—when I teach my class, I get people who are very tight about their drawing, right? Or very feeling like they're not an artist, and so therefore they can't draw. So I end up breaking it down into you're writing letters and then you're learning how to write words, and you're learning how to write sentences. And from the sentences you get stories. And if you think about it in building blocks, right? Like your letters are the straight, the curves, the circles, the shapes, right? And then you put that together to make people, places things. That's the words. And then you add conjunctions and connectors or adjectives, right? Like, and that would be like arrows and boxes to group things. Or, you know, little line radiating license show something is new or swirly lines, you know, to show like a different mood or using different sizes of type. So that's your connector to make sentences. And then when you have all of these things together, then it becomes a story. So if you think about it like as a form of alphabet and writing system versus thinking of it as an artistic system, then it just feels more approachable. MR: Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Lowers the bar a lot. Yeah. DA: Yeah. And I guess the other thing I'll tell people, you know, we're all stuck in boring meetings a lot. MR: Yeah. Yeah. DA: So sometimes, i find that I'll practice my sketch notes in boring meetings. And I'll— MR: You know, not much to lose. DA: Yeah. It's sometimes then it's you know, like the key thing, right? You write the words and then you leave space for images. And then you know, it's just kind of even practice. Sometimes I'll draw the people in the meeting to practice drawing different facial expressions or I'll challenge myself to draw tricky visual concepts. Like lately I've had to—I had to recently do a storyboard to illustrate large language models for AI. MR: Oh yeah. DA: That was tricky. Bitcoin was tricky. It was the other one before, I think—or how would I draw AR and VR experiences? And so, what I did with that was I would draw the person with the VR glasses in green. The rest of the body was, you know, black and white. And then I would make a pointed, a word balloon, but I would make it a square word balloon pointing at the glass outline in green. So what that would indicate is that this is what they're seeing through the glasses. And then anything they were seeing the glasses I would draw in green as well. MR: I see. DA: So then in the context of like the— MR: Separate those. Mm-hmm. DA: So it's kind of like there's—especially if you work in tech or anything that's abstract, like finance or healthcare, somethings you're dealing with sometimes a lot of abstract concepts. And these will be like your greatest hits, right? These are things that's gonna come up for you over and over again. So like figure out your icon or symbol for it. When I teach my class and I teach it to different types of—I teach to healthcare companies, tech companies, some that are more enterprise or more cloud-focused, some are more retail or e-commerce focused, I teach 'em a basic curriculum and then I customize it the second half for their industry. Saying like, I'm not here to—you know, like Duolingo, right? Duolingo will teach me stuff like, "My sister teaches geology at the university." And it's like, I never use that in a sentence when I go to Japan, right? MR: Yeah. DA: I'd like to order this, but could I get it with the kimchi on the side instead of this? Or how much is this? Or where's the bathroom? MR: Practical things. Yeah. DA: Practical, right? So when I teach my drawing class, I go like, here's the basics, and here's your greatest hits for your industry. You know, here's how to draw a shopping cart. You're an e-commerce, here's how to draw your company logo really fast. Things like that, right? MR: Things you're gonna use a lot. Yeah. DA: So I'm always really focused, like when I teach, think of it as language learning. I try to think of it as, what's the stuff you need? 'Cause you don't need to learn how to draw everything in the world. Just the stuff in your world. MR: That's a great second tip. So first one is think of it as language. The second is to build the greatest hits of the things you're gonna use often using that language. DA: I think the third one is just be visual with fun low-stakes things. MR: Yeah. Good point. DA: Sometimes people get really bent like, "Oh my God, if I'm gonna do scratching on at a conference, everyone's gonna look at it and it has to be perfect, right? MR: Right. DA: Or if I'm gonna scratch work, you know, everyone's gonna see it and it has to be good. Then when I say, "Well, how about sketch notes for fun, low-stakes things?" Like a favorite recipe or you know, like a travel journal or like even sketching your favorite TV show. Like, what happens? MR: Yeah. That's a good one. DA: So think of fun way—or I think another one is, draw with young people. Yeah. If you have your kids or nieces or nephews or any young people you come in contact with, draw with them. Have fun with them and draw together and you'll find that—I mean, that's how I got started. My mom draw me when I was young. Right. So one, it invites you to enjoy it as fun. It invites you to you know, play together in a spirit of experimentation and low stakes-ness, but also kind of when you're with kids, you just kind of learn, "Oh, I don't need to worry about a lot of these things." MR: Yeah. Don't put too much burden on yourself. DA: Yeah. Or treat yourself as kindly as you would a kid who's just learning how to draw. MR: Yeah. That's a good idea. DA: I think so much of it gets blocked because as adults we judge ourselves too harshly. MR: Yeah. We too much burden on ourselves. Yeah. DA: For even a very beginner efforts, right. So, you know, there's always a time and a place to be better, but you'll never get better if you never at least go through a lot of routes of being not so good at it. And it doesn't matter that that's not so good. You're at least doing it. MR: Right. Learning every time. DA: Because we were talking about people who use AI for these kind of things. It's like, you are missing the point. The true joy of the sketching is the motor memory, the activity, the connection between your muscles and the thing, and your visual, and then that ends up being reinforcing something in your brain. So, yeah, the drawing—I've taught my drawing classes through Zoom, but I find it's so much more fun if it's in person. MR: Yeah. Yeah. DA: That's a tough one though. MR: Well, those are three great tips. Thanks for sharing those. And thank you for all that you're doing in the visual thinking community. I know attending the International Sketchnote Camp and doing the teaching that you're doing, thank you for doing that and just helping people move beyond not doing anything. That's really helpful. And I'm glad that you're doing it. So thank you for that work. DA: Oh, thank you. I'd love to go to next year's Sketchnote. I have such fond memories of that one, but is so sad I missed the last few. MR: Yeah. Well, it's gonna be in Texas. It's been announced from the 2nd through the 4th of August and San Antonio, Texas. So it's gonna be right in the neighborhood for people in the United States. So Michael Clayton is running the show and I'm helping with a few other people. So as we record this, it's early February, so pretty soon there should be more information. And of course, you probably have seen on the website announcements for it by the time this show comes out. But yeah, it's gonna be San Antonio. DA: Excited to mark my calendar. MR: Yeah. Tacos and barbecue and sketch notes— DA: Nice. MR: - you can't go wrong. DA: Absolutely. Yeah. One thing I love about—I wanna tell it to you, Mike, that there are a lot of people who create creative communities and the creative community you've created has such a nice feeling, just a nice warm vibe of collaboration and, you know, shared growth. And so, thank you for that. MR: Oh, thank you. DA: It has a great impact. MR: I'm just one piece of that puzzle. There's a lot of people that invest in that, so I'm glad to hear that. And they will as well when they hear this podcast, so. Yeah, for sure. Well, Deb, what's the best place to find you? Do you have a website we can go to and see your work and reach out to you? Are you on certain social media where you hang out these days? DA: Well I'm on BlueSky, @debaoki. My Twitter account is having problems nowadays but I am on Twitter with @mangasplanning. And then if you go to mangasplanning.com, that's where all our podcasts are at. I'm embarrassed to say that my website is down right now for renovations. MR: Oh, okay. DA: But eventually debaoki.com will be back. MR: Okay. Maybe by the time the show comes out in March or whatever, DA: That would be a good deadline, wouldn't it? MR: Yeah. There you go. I'll give you a deadline. DA: Okay. Sounds good. MR: Even if it's just, you know, "Coming soon" and it's you with a hard hat on shoveling, that would be, you know, a throwback to the '90s. DA: Indeed. MR: When websites weren't ready yet, they'd have like a little construction worker digging. DA: That's true. MR: They should do Deb digging and animate it, and that would be your website until you get it up. DA: Good idea. MR: And then they'd stop every once in a while, "See you soon.” That'd be funny. Cool. Well, we'll definitely send people there. We'll get the show notes from you and find them on our own as well. So if you're curious about anything here, just go to show notes and you'll find a link to it. And Deb, thanks for being on the show. It's been great to have you. Thanks for sharing your experience and your wisdom. DA: Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's so delightful to talk with you. MR: Yeah, you're so welcome. And for anybody who's listening or watching, it's another episode of the podcast. Until the next episode, talk to you soon.

In this episode, Jimi Holstebro discusses identifying gaps, pursuing education to fill them, and seamlessly integrating acquired skills into his work, all while enjoying the process. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Jimi Holstebro Origin Story Jimi's current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Jimi Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Jimi's Website for Art Jimi's Website for Work Jimi on Instagram Jimi on LinkedIn Jimi on Facebook Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Thick paper Neuland brush tip markers Acrylics Pens Notebook iPad iMac Wacom Cintiq Clips Studio Paint Procreate Tips Don't limit yourself to gadgets. Just do it. Rehearse, rehearse, rehearse. It's not about being good at drawing. It's about conveying ideas. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike, and I'm here with Jimi Holstebro. Jimi, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you. Jimi Holstebro: Thank you. Thank you for having me. MR: It's an interesting name that you have, and I think you gave me a hint as to your name. Why don't you reveal to the listeners how you ended up with Jimi when you live in Denmark? JH: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mostly because my father was a huge Jimi Hendrix fan, so they chose to call their firstborn son, Jimi. Actually, will be calling me Jimi today, but then it's Jimi with, you know, like a soft J and it's pretty darn hard both for Dens and for everybody else to understand the "Yimi," so we go with Jimi. MR: Interesting. Yeah. Cool. Well, and so, tell us a little bit about where you live and what you do. JH: I'm living actually smack in the middle of Denmark, in the part of Denmark that's called Jutland. Which is the mainland. You know, there's a lot of island seals. Funen and then we have Jutland. And in the middle of Jutland, there's this city called Viborg. It's a small city with 40,000 people living there. It's a beautiful old city with the—what's it called? One of those very old churches we have in Europe, which have been, you know, a trade city, an important city where the court is. Also, the old court from that part of Denmark. So beautiful, beautiful city with some lyrics and it has a good football team. It has some handballs, it has stuff. Actually, I ended up here because I moved here with my children's mother back in the day when she started in school as a nurse. They have a nursing school here. Originally, I come from the top of Denmark, the top of Jutland at a city by the sea called Frederikshavn. So, actually, my childhood was in a small fisherman's town called Frederikshavn. MR: Wow. JH: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Back there I was like, you know, a little in toward kid—ah, that's not really true, but in toward in the way that when I came home, I sat down and then took out all my pencils and my markers and start drawing, listening to music, and just sat drawing all afternoon and reading comic books. I think maybe you heard that kind of story before about people interested in drawing. They have like, you know, hours and hours of reading comics and then trying to draw it themselves. MR: Yeah, I had that history myself, you know, living our best lives as kids, right? JH: Yeah, exactly. So that's kind of it. You know, normal school we have in Denmark. We also have, you know, like we have just a primary school, and then we go to some sort of high school. And after high school, I went to—actually, I started to read to become a teacher. MR: Mm. JH: Yeah. But when I was doing that, I applied to get into to the art academy. Actually, I got in. It's not something you just do. There's a lot of a lot of people trying to get in, and just few getting in there. Actually, I got in there and got my master's degree in fine arts. MR: Really? JH: Yeah. Back in the start of—middle of 2000-something. Yeah, '05, '06 or something like that. MR: Did you have a specialty in the fine arts? Was there an area that you focused on? JH: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, it was mostly drawing and graphics. You know, like old-school graphics. What is it called in English? I don't really know. But when we have paper, you put on rolls. MR: Oh, yeah. Printing. Yeah, lithographs. JH: Printing. Yeah, printing of course. Yeah, yeah. Stuff like that. I did that a lot. So always been very, very interested in the line, in the black and whites, working a lot. Also, you just show me you have one of the books I made for Neuland, which is also, you know, just a line. Very, very simple. I'm a huge fan of that, so just drawing, just black and white. And I love it. MR: Interesting. Interesting. JH: Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of it. Then just started my artistic career from there. MR: Interesting. And so, tell us a little bit about what you do now? JH: Yeah, actually, the last decade I've been independent, let's call it graphic facilitator because that's the word people understand. Actually, I'm not very fond of it anymore, and I'm referring more and more to myself as just being [unintelligible 05:14] but I draw because that's what I do. MR: And I think everybody understands it too, right? JH: Yeah, yeah. They do now because when I think graphic facilitation popped up in Denmark like 12, 15 years ago or something like that, and some people started doing it, and I actually quite fast got a grip of it and heard of it and tried it. And got a lot of jobs all of a sudden because it was also in the time when the social media, especially Facebook started rolling, everybody had an account, and everything that went on there was interesting. So when people saw it, they kind of just called me or wrote me, "Can you come and help us?" But before I got there, I kind of stopped with art school in the middle of the 2000s. I didn't live from doing art, but it's kind of difficult. I think it's the same story in United States because when you're an artist, you are pretty much dependent on people liking your stuff. MR: Right. JH: And even though I have a master's degree, you know, it's not like being an engineer who's coming to tell you, "When we build this bridge, we need these materials." Everything has to be mathematically calculated to fit so the bridge won't fall. And when I come with my theoretical ideas about art and tell people it has to be like this because my reference is compared to other artists, blah, blah, blah. You know, people just say, "But I don't like it. I don't care. I don't like it." MR: Yeah. JH: And the internet wasn't—you know, there were no social media. So when I tried to sell art, you know, I had to drive around showing people my stuff and try to get into galleries or art shows and stuff like that. It was kind of difficult actually. So actually, I went back to teaching. Started teaching again and actually quite, quite fast got into managing. I started at a small school and they asked if I would like to manage the school. So actually, I ended up doing management for 10 years. MR: Wow. JH: Yeah. And in the area of special needs. MR: Oh, okay. JH: Get kids and youth with special needs. And, you know, that was interesting because they didn't learn like, you know— MR: In a traditional way, right? JH: Traditional way. And actually, I used the comics very much and the understanding of that, you know, the way it's sequenced. The sequential build of a strip was much easier for them to understand when they had to read text or understand connections with things. So that kind of opened up something for me in terms of, you know, "Okay, this is interesting in many ways. What if we do it in other terms and also did it with the people I managed." In some ways started to, you know, using all of this. And then graphic facilitation kind of you know, popped up and then it started to make a whole lot more sense to work with stuff in this way. And, meanwhile working as a manager, I think maybe I have a little, I dunno, may maybe I have a little HDHD—ADH—ADHD, something like this because I've always been, you know, very, very busy especially while working always taking some kind of—still keeping on educating myself. Because actually, I have a degree in management, I have a degree in facilitating, and I also have a master's degree in communication. MR: Wow. Wow. JH: I read a lot. You know, I read a lot and kind of built on. It became obvious for me because it's nice to have a master of fine arts, but then you're an artist and people, you know, they kind of expect you to be, you know, like a heavy camper with brushes and paint on your clothing. It is not always serious. So I had to somehow put some aspects to my CV that kind of made me have some weight when I talked about communication. That became obvious for me in the last decade or something. So built on with my education, meanwhile working both with management and then the switch to working with the graphic facilitation so that I kind of, you know, had some weight when I told people about why visual communication was actually working and how it worked and stuff like that. Yeah. MR: Interesting. So you sort of built that in. JH: I'm sorry. Yeah. And I build that in. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. MR: No, yeah. I was just gonna say, it's interesting the way you've sort of build in the things that you saw were missing as a, you know, something you're interested in, but it also provided—what's the word? Gravitas, or like the credibility or something, right? JH: Exactly. MR: So when you would go to a business to say, "Well, I've done all these studies." I guess you probably wouldn't say that, but it would be in your history. So they would see that pretty quickly. JH: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So the last, a little more than a decade now, I've been an independent graphic facilitator or doing drawings for people in all kinds of ways. You know, traditional graphic recordings or scribing or whatever we call them, where I've of course started out with markers on papers, you know, in big style huge papers, wallpapers. And then I've been doing, of course, I would like to say a lot of teaching using markers or the way of drawing as a means to communicate for others in their way of communication or teaching or stuff like that. I've been doing hundreds of small—what's it called? Animated videos. You know, the ones where you see the hand draw something and stuff like that. They also have a lot of different names. I just call them drawn videos. MR: Like white whiteboard animation. Yeah. It's common. Yeah. JH: Yeah. Something, yeah. They have all kinds of words. And then I also do like, I call it the strategic drawings. You know, where people want to somehow to unfold their strategies, their visions. You know, they have like 40 pages hidden on a H-drive somewhere in the business that nobody ever looks at. But to make it live in the company. It actually helps to put it on a poster or make it hang in the walls, in the canteen, or something like that so that all the employees actually see what's going on, and they can see themselves in that process. And so, I do loads of that as well. So mainly I've been doing that the last 10 years and been very, very happy about it. It has taken me all around the world, but mainly in Denmark, of course. But I've been traveling also different other countries to do drawings for companies. And it's been amazing. It's been amazing. MR: Wow. And I kind of love the way that you sort of built this combination. So you began as a teacher. You know, you practically were a teacher and then a manager. But you've had this art background when you were a kid, you were drawing and looking at comics, it like, sort of this, I dunno, collection of all these components that now you're applying, right? So you have to manage people and yourself, you have to teach them. And you know, those processes, you know, you know how to draw, but you're also then teaching that to other people, and then using it, of course, as a way to communicate. So your communication skills. So you've really made use of all the backgrounds that you put into yourself and you're applying them all, which is really cool. JH: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It kind of makes—you know, it's very holistic the way I've you know both my history with drawing and management, you know, organizations and then the tools I acquired and putting it all together, it's very holistic. Actually, I'm getting up every day and I'm not getting to work, I'm just doing my thing. MR: Having fun. Yeah, yeah. JH: Exactly. MR: That's kind of the ideal place where you wanna be, right? If you can. JH: Yeah. It kind of is. Of course, you know, you making drawings for other people on their demands is not the same as the artistic me, of course, because I still do a lot of art, which is mostly the place, you know, where I do my own thing. MR: Yeah. JH: And that's a different language than the one I apply when I do business with people, you know because it is another game. But it smells like art in a very, very satisfying way, you know? MR: Yeah. JH: I own my skills in drawing and communication all the time with the work, and I really love it. The long-term idea for me is of course to, you know settle down in the mountain somewhere. I don't know, it's in France in a little cabin walking around half naked, just, you know, like wine in the one hand and brushing the other hand and living from my own house something like that. MR: Well, it's still a possibility. JH: That's a good thing about it. MR: Yeah. That's really fascinating. I'm kind of curious to give me a sampling of a project. You sort of given generalities about the kinds of projects. Is there a project that you could tell us about? Of course, sometimes NDAs apply, of course. But a project that you can tell us about that you're excited about that would give us a sense of the kind of work you mostly do for a client. JH: Yeah. Yeah. I can do that. Right now, I'm almost putting last bricks together with a strategic drawing for a company in Denmark. They reached out—and that's kind of very normal process for me. Client reaches out, say they need me to come and draw, summarize, live draw, you know, something at a meeting. And then the last handful of years that has never been satisfying enough for me. So I ask the client, "Okay, why do you want me to do that? What do you need the output to do?" And it always baffles the clients because they have seen, heard something about live drawing and they want a really nice poster of what has been going on. And even though I am pretty good at drawing, and I'm also pretty fast at drawing, it is also very much to ask of me to come in a couple of hours and summarize a whole lot of strategic processes, boiled down to, you know, like a couple of hours. And my question to the client always is, "But I can do that. I can do that, and I will listen to what you say, but are you sure you want that to be the output you are putting to life when I leave?" Because that will be my very subjective—what is it called? Boiling down what you're telling me in that specific timeframe. I can do that, and you can pay for that, but wouldn't it be greater if you kind of introduced me a whole lot more to all the strategic reasoning behind what you're doing, and then we make it into a small process where I then try to sketch what I see and hear from that. And then, you know, we have some back-and-forth ping pong about what, and at the end out which, you know me inking it up, making it look nice and coloring, and then you have like a poster where you really, really have ownership of what's going on instead of me just subjectively drawing all kinds of things I here in a small timeframe. And then also, the businessman in me also makes it much clearer for people to understand that from here on, you also have almost the manuscript for if you want to make a small animated movie out of it afterwards. And I can deliver you packages with all the drawings on each own. So you can use them in PowerPoint, you can do all that. Because you get like a digital package. MR: Yeah. JH: And people always go with that because it makes sense. MR: Yeah. JH: So that's kind of a typical way I do these projects. And then again, if it's an animated video, they start out reaching out for, I also kind of make them buy, you know, posters and stuff like that in the other end, because it makes sense to have all these components put together so you can, as a company, use it in a way. I think it makes sense for you as a designer as well, you know, to have things, they have a red line through all the things I do for them. So have like a pack again, unfolding on different platforms afterwards. And of course, it makes sense, you know. MR: That's more of a sweet— JH: So that would be kind of a—yeah, yeah. Something like that. And that would be a typical process or project for me to be involved in. I know it's pretty selfish, but it is because I'm also a little—you know, when I started out, I just did everything the customers ask me. Two, I did this and that. But I also, you know, become a little lazy and a little more self-centered. I wanna deliver something that I'm very proud of when I deliver it. MR: Yeah. JH: Back when I started, I just wanted as much as possible, I wanted to draw, draw, draw, come out, visit everybody, go everywhere, do everything. But now I've grown a little older and I'm a whole lot more interested in just sitting down really nerding, deep diving into the drawings, and have my own party and fun with doing the drawings and making them look, you know, awesome. So, it's kind of funny, but it works and it makes sense for the customers as well. So everybody's happy. It's a win-win. MR: Well, I would think that if you're gonna put that much energy into it, you might as well get exactly what the customer wants and also what you want, right? JH: Exactly. MR: Than just to, you know, 80 percent of the way do it, you know? I dunno, so. JH: Yeah. MR: Anyway. I'm kind of curious, how do you convince the customer? This might be helpful for someone listening. How do you move them from, "Well, we just want you to come in for a day and draw things," and then you end up with this subjective perspective? How do you sort of move them into the next? Are there certain things that they respond to that someone listening could integrate into their own practice to do the same thing? Like, what can our listeners learn from your approach to help do that? JH: Yeah. I think mostly I start off by saying most clients don't really know exactly what I'm doing. You know, they know I draw, they know I draw and they heard of graphic facilitation, recording something like this, and they've seen drawings, and they instantly know how it works. When they look at a drawing, they want to look at a drawing and they get curious about it and look more at it and read some of the stuff. They don't do that with the 40 pages and the D-drive, right? MR: Mm-hmm. JH: So, instinctively they have, you know, an understanding of this kind of works. So, when I unfold and I question them more and more about, but which kind of output do you really want? I think they kind of understand where I'm coming from and what it is I actually do. So they have like this kind of revelation as, "Ah, oh, can we really do this? So can this be the end product? Is that possible?" So, I'm kinda opening their eyes to what the drawings actually what it does and what it can do and what it really is, and how it is unfolded and put into work when it's best. Which is something that I'm very, very interested in. You know, all the things around it, you know, because also I've been studying it and I think it's very interesting and I want to study even more about how is it, it works, and functions the way it does for us, you know? I don't know if I'm pretty good at per persuading people or something, but I don't think it really is this, I think it makes sense for people to hear that I can come draw for you live and then I leave, and then you are left there maybe with a piece of paper, maybe digitally whatever, and then what? And then they, you know, maybe also kind of get scared because they don't know what to do from there. MR: Yeah, yeah. JH: They don't have the skillset, you know, to—but maybe even if they have a digital drawing, you know, they will put it into Word or other program and cut it and it won't look nice if they need some of it. So they're also happy to have me guide them and help them in all of the process. And when I tell them, but if we make a drawing here, that's pretty good, you can have that as a standout component you can use in PowerPoints or whatever, in emails and stuff like that. That also compels them to go with it, I think. MR: Yeah. It almost seems like— JH: And then— MR: Oh, go ahead. JH: Yeah. And then normally, of course, it will be a tiny bit more expensive to do the process. But not that much again, because I charge more when I'm out drawing live than when I have the opportunity to sit back at my office, you know, then I can work at different projects at the same time, and I can use my time in a better way. So, in that way that will make it a bit cheaper, but then of course it'll be a longer process. So it is normally not that much more I charge people for one or the other. MR: Well, it's interesting. I think what I'm reading that you're saying and maybe the way we can think about it is if we get in a situation with a customer or a client is to—because we know they probably don't know how to apply it, at least effectively, but they're willing to spend this significant amount of money to have someone come in and do this. So we need to think like, well, what would be the—we kind of know, like what would be the best application and sort of think as if I were the client, what would I want? And then you present it back to them and say, "Well, we could do components for PowerPoints and emails." Like, you know, you could even say that, like, "I've worked with clients who had the single image, they tried to cut that corner out, and it wasn't exactly right. If you've got me on board, we can separate that and we can make that into a component that you can use even after the fact," right? Like, they might get a month into like, "Oh, Jimi, there's this one little part that we've just focused in this area now. Can you pull that out?" JH: Exactly. MR: And you might say, "Well, I can't pull it out, but maybe I could just redo it based on the same thing." You're now a resource to them. So you almost need to think like, what is it? You sort of have a better idea of what they could do. JH: Exactly. MR: The other thing that I would imagine is once you've done it once successfully, you can then show that as the proof. Like, "Hey, look, this other company, look what they did. I came in for the day, we caught some information, but then we started to collaboratively work to get it exactly right. And then we realized there were five elements that we could pull from it. And here's the five elements, and here's how they used it, and here's a quote from the person at that company and how they were so excited," or whatever. You could, like, once you do the one, then it kind of flips the next one, right? So you can think of it that way. JH: Yeah. I also always do that, you know, in the mail correspondence, I always add, you know, like, "I did this one, you can see how I did this one. And if you want to see how this one has been turned into and explain a video, here's a link to this." So people also, they—and that's also the thing, because I am obviously very visual in my way of thinking, which most people are, but they think that they everything is written. So they kind of need help and guiding in seeing things. So I always send materials so they can see how it is. So sometimes confidential and stuff like that, but this is for your eye only, you know, stuff like that. Then they also feel kind of included MR: Special. JH: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. MR: That's great feedback. I mean, we are not even to the tips yet, but these are great tips for visual thinkers who are trying to find ways to integrate this work into their daily life or their work life. So if you're either independent or even inside a company, you could do the same thing, you know, on your own time, and you'd be really surprised at how open many companies are to this. I know, 'cause I work for companies, I integrate my visual thinking all the time, and they're really excited when I do it, and in fact, request it, right? So just because you work for a company doesn't mean this is off limits for you. This is a huge opportunity. And you might have some benefits that someone like Jimi doesn't have because he's outside. As an insider, you could have some different perspectives and maybe some built-in, you know, a reputation that you could lean on to show this stuff since you know, the inside the product so well. JH: I kind of have a question for you, Mike. MR: Sure. JH: Because in Denmark, I haven't seen the first job opening as a graphic facilitator yet. It's yet to come. And I don't understand why, but that's another discussion altogether. MR: Yeah. JH: But do you see job openings or applications that people asking for, you know, as an employee on a regular basis, not just like freelancer or something like that? But do you know of or heard or have heard of graphic facilitators that are hired into larger businesses? MR: The only place I've seen it has been for graphic recording companies. JH: Oh, yeah. Yeah. MR: So like, my friends at Sketch Effect are often looking for new people, right? JH: Yeah, of course. Yeah. MR: Sketch Effect, not to focus too much on them, is they do have employees, but I think they also have freelancers. So they have a variety of different modes, right? But they will hire—I dunno if you know Heather Martinez, she's amazing at hand lettering. She just took a position with a company and she's doing something around I think vision work or something. But I can guarantee you that Heather Martinez is going to do visual thinking in that role, right? So in some ways, probably, maybe in a big company, you would see that kind of a role. But I would say if you're listening and you work for a company, it doesn't mean you can't do it, right? You can just find ways to integrate this. Again, your job even as an employee, is to communicate ideas effectively. And if visual thinking is your effective way of communication, that should be part of your suite of communication tools. But you know— JH: It is kind of funny. I don't really understand it because now it has been, you know, like— MR: It's been a while. JH: Yeah, it's been a while. 15, 20 years, or something. And there's a lot of people working with it. And of course, visual thinking it's not like they—yeah, and some people, when I talk to, "Yeah, we have a graphic designer." Yeah. MR: That's different. JH: That's not it. MR: Yeah. JH: Yeah. That's not it. But I think many huge companies just think about how many meetings they have every day. If they had like, you know, a visual thinker joining those meetings to help retain information, you know, make it shareable. All those things that makes a visual communication interesting. That's amazing. This year I'm gonna do some work and asking some questions in the proper places to why that's not happening yet. MR: Maybe it is happening and it's just so hit-and-miss that we just aren't aware of it. JH: Denmark is so small and we are so few doing it. So, I think I would know it. MR: I think we're like— JH: We're like as many inhabitants in Denmark as you are in the biggest citizen in the states. MR: Yeah, yeah. That's true. That's true. The small group. Yeah. I mean, I guess the two things I think is one, probably companies are trained to look outside and don't think about hiring it in. Maybe because they feel like they're too small. But maybe that will be a shift too. So when you think about, oh, it's probably about maybe 8, 10 years ago, I dunno if you remember this, but lots of tech companies bought design firms. So if you think about who's providing graphic facilitation and recording and sketchnoting, there's firms that typically do it and they're trained to go to an outside firm because it's kind of a one-off thing, right? JH: Yeah, yeah, yeah. MR: In a lot of cases, the problem too is that when the budget gets tight, you know, first thing to go is gonna be graphic recording, right? Because "Ah, we kind of, don't need that. Let's—" But at some point, there may be a place where it's— JH: But that's the thing that I'm interested in and curious about because it's not a one-off thing. MR: Yeah. It shouldn't be. JH: As I just said, think of all the meetings that are being held, all the processes that are being designed every day, and they have like, loads of project employees just to manage all those kinds of projects. Why don't you have one helping you to visualize it? That's what I'm saying. Yeah. MR: Maybe there’s… JH: That's another discussion. MR: Yeah. Exactly. Now we're sort of talking a little bit about that, let's shift into tools. I'm really curious to hear what tools—we talked before we began, we're both Neuland ambassadors and we use their tools 'cause they're great. So I assume there must be some favorites there, but I'd love to hear about notebooks and paper and any other analog tools, and then of course, digital tools that you like to use in your practice. JH: Yeah. I think I might be kind of boring in the tool ways because I've never, you know, nerded into what kind of marker do I love the most. Do I have some special pen flown directly in from Japan or anything? When I draw on paper, I like the paper to be kind like for wall coloring, you know? So, it has to be thick. I like that. So it doesn't bleed through. That's number one. Of course, but I don't really have a favorite. If we have to talk about the Neuland markers, I love the brush tip. And I love that they just made the big ones with brush tips. I absolutely love it. That's my all-time favorite. But normally I just do like—and I have, I don't know, thousands of pens and markers and, you know, just with the small felt tip, something like this black. MR: Yeah. JH: It works for me. Works for me, you know? And then when I do my arti fati thing, I mainly paint with the acrylics and brushes. And there also, I'm kind of a weirdo because I don't have any brand or specific brushes I just have to do or any specific canvas. I kind of just make do with the— MR: Whatever's available JH: - whatever I have. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. That might be a bit weird, but yeah, I don't know. I have colleagues that really, really nerd into, you know, what kind of notebook they're using, what's the paper and what's the pens like? But I never really—I'm fascinated about it, but, you know, I never really dug into it somehow. I am, and I know you, you said that it could be a little boring talking about the digital tools because all of us have an iPad and we probably also have a Wacom or something like this. And yeah, I think maybe 80, 90 percent of all my work is done on the computer or the iPad. Because for me, as I told you, as a process evolves when I'm working with clients, it's just easy for the client, you know, and to send files back and forth and do corrections on them and split 'em into single components and stuff like that. It's just a whole lot easier. But, you know, I have a big iMac and I have the large and new Wacom Cintiq. I really love to draw on this. I used to draw a lot in Photoshop, Adobe's Photoshop, but a couple years ago, it was kind of like they downgraded. They nerfed the drawing part, and I had to reinstall my brushes again and again. And I kind of grew tired of it. So, now I'm mainly drawing when I'm drawing on the computer in Clips Studio. It's a program made for making comics and it kind of just have the tools depends the stuff I need and all the shortcuts are basically the same as Adobe. So I've been working with Adobe for, I don't know, two, three decades, something like that. So it is in the fingers. So the transition to Clips Studio was painless. Just did it overnight. And then of course on the—I don't know if it's of course, but I do use Procreate a lot. I miss so much—do you know the German guy, Hulk, who made—in the early days of the iPad— MR: That's right. JH: He made— MR - an app, didn't he? JH: He made an app that when you—he designed it for live drawing because what you did, all the time when you projected your screen, it was the whole screen. But you could sit on the iPad and work, you can zoom in and out and— MR: And they would never see that. JH: Yeah. They would never see that. But somehow it ended up with the Apple not supporting the support of it or something like that. So, it went off again. Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night and really miss that one because it was kind of Procreate, but you had that single feature, and maybe it's me that haven't been smart enough to figure it out, but I haven't seen any programs having that feature yet. So, normally now when I do live drawing on my iPad, I wait until there's a break and then I send them like a jpeg of wherever I've gotten to something like that. So that's the thing projected up on the screens and the breaks anyway, something like that. Yeah. MR: I think I've seen features, and maybe it's not in Procreate, it might've been in—I have a note-taking app I use for slides where it gives you the option in the settings to say don't show the tools. Right. So it would hide the tools and you just see—I don't know if they hide the zooming, I can remember— JH: But one thing is the tool, but then, assuming if you're sitting in your audience and watching the Zoom, you would be like, nauseous, you know. MR: Getting sick. Yeah, JH: Yeah. But if anyone is listening to this, knows a program that does it, please, please make a note about it. That'd be nice. MR: Let Jimi know. JH: Yeah. MR: Do you remember, it was a company called FiftyThree, and now it's owned by WeTransfer paper, that app paper. I think in an old version, it would do what you talked about, where it would just show the screen. Now, I don't think you could hide the tools, but if you zoomed, there was a tool. I can't remember what it was. But when you zoomed, it wouldn't show the zooming. It would just show the static and they would see the changes happening. JH: Exactly. MR: Now you're making me curious to poke around my tools and see, is there a tool that will do that? JH: Was it Nils Holger Pohl, or something, I think? MR: Yeah, yeah, yeah. JH: He made that one. I can't remember the name of it. Yeah, but that would be nice to have, because this, of course, I talk people away from projecting it live because people get nausea and then we end up with, you know, a solution where it's shown in the breaks but people will just be watching in the breaks anyways. But sometimes it would be nice to, you know, like have it projected up whilst people are talking so that they could concentrate and see ideas unfolding, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff. That would be nice to have in there, within the whole scene anyway, so. MR: Yeah. Now you're making me curious to dig around. If I find apps that do it, I'll let you know. And if somebody's listening and you know an app, then let Jimi know. JH: Yeah. That'll be nice. Thank you. Yeah. MR: You sound like a practical guy. Probably because you grew up as a kid in a fishing village, you know, just drawing all day and, you know, there was no special art tools when you were a kid. Like me, if I wanted something, I had to make it. If I wanted a comic book, I would take printer paper, cut something up, and make it, staple it, whatever. So you just make it happen. There's no stuff for you. JH: Exactly. MR: So I think that I'm like you, I like going into the corner drugstore and finding my favorite pen there in any city in the world, right? Or something close enough to it. I've always had that feeling like I also use a laptop because I've always wanted to feel like I could work independently of a place. So I want to be able to have the ability to work and not have to have, oh, I have to have this monitor, and I have to have this desk, and I have to have because that really limits your ability to do work if you become adaptable to the situation. You know, that's always been my approach. So I think that's maybe a little bit of a mindset in some ways. JH: Yeah. Yeah. It wouldn't be the first time I've told myself I can't draw unless I have this gadget. And then I kind of, you know, go totally numb until I have that gadget. And in the end, I also always have a notebook and a couple of pens in my back everywhere I go, because I don't want to be limited. But you know, when I'm sitting in my office—I'm sitting in my living room right now, I'm not even at the office, but when I'm sitting in the office, you know, I have thousands of gadgets and I can't find half of them, and "Hey, wait, didn't I have that one?" You know. MR: Yeah, exactly. JH: And at some point, I couldn't live without that gadget. MR: Yeah. That's funny. That's funny. JH: Yeah. It's terrible. MR: For all the guests that I have on, I'd like to make it practical. We've done some of that already, but I would love to hear three tips. You can give more if you like, but I just asked for three. JH: Mm-hmm. MR: Imagine someone's listening and maybe they're in a rut, or they just feel they're not so inspired and they need a little encouragement or inspiration, what would be three things that you would tell that person can be practical or it can be mindset stuff? JH: I think maybe it's obvious because we just talked about it, but don't limit yourself. Don't limit yourself on gadgets. It does not have to be the right notebook or the right pen. That is nice to have, you don't need it. You don't need it. Just grab paper, pencil, pen, whatever you have, and start doing it. And number two would of course be exactly that. Just do it. We are so fortunate, not like when we were kids, Mike, I had to take my bike and ride, I don't know how many kilometers to go to the library if I needed any kind of inspiration other than what was in my mind, you know? MR: Yeah. JH: You just open your smartphone, your laptop, your iPad, whatever you have, add your hand and you can find tutorials, you can find everything. I would have been the greatest artist in the world if I had those opportunities when I was a kid, I think. Hours I have been sitting, you know, copying stuff to get better. If I could just sit down and watch all the good guys doing all the good things and copy that and rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, that would be—and of course, maybe tip number three, I always kind of say to students I work with, "Do you play any kind of instrument?" And people say no. If they do, they do, and if they don't, they don't. And I ask them, "How do you get good at playing an instrument?" "Yeah, by rehearsing." Exactly. You know? And it's the same thing with drawing. If you wanna be good at it, you have to do it. You just have to do it. But the funny thing with drawing is that we kind of all have at least 10 years experience of drawing and, you know, it's sitting in us, it's living in us that we kind of think that it's a thing we ought to, should have to do, could do better because we all have done a lot of drawings. You know, what's her name? Ah, that's embarrassing. It's a Ted talk, and she's talking about—that's what I first heard it. It's not her founding, but you know, it's the only universal language we have. And it's evolving all over the, all over the globe in the same fashion. From you can get a crayon in your hands till 12 years old. It evolves in the precise same way all over the globe. So it's a universal language we have, but then, you know, of course, our brains at sometimes understand now the things I'm drawing does not look like reality. And then most people stop drawing, you know? And also, because we are not encouraged to continue doing it in school. MR: Right. JH: Which in Denmark at least, getting better. People are getting better and better understanding that we have to, you know, utilize all the modalities to make greater retention, understanding and engagement and all those kinds of things, which are also very, very interesting. And so, do it. Just do it. If you want to use visual communication as a tool, it's not about being—of course, if you use it, you rehearse every day, you utilize it, you do, of course, get better. But it's not about being good at drawing. It's not always about being good at communicating, it's being good at listening, it's being good at visualizing ideas, you know? And it's the ideas of things, and they are often and normally very, very simple, very simple icons of reality. You know? So, you're not doing lifelike portraits or anything. It's not what it's about. It's about conveying ideas. MR: Yeah. Well, said. Well said. JH: Thank you. Thank you. Which is of course also something I'm very, very interested in. And I don't know if that's a question of all, but now I'm just gonna tell you. You know, I told you I'm glad to be educated and actually I'm working hard on trying to see if I can build even more education on top of what I've already done because I think there's some questions that need to be answered. And it is, why is it drawing actually works as well as it does, you know? So right now, I'm trying just as a start collecting as much evidence as there is, see who's been researching in stuff like this. And, you know, because it draws from psychology and movie studies and all kinds of things. But that's not really doing a lot of studying in what is it exactly drawing does, and why does it do? Because we all feel it works when you look at a drawing and, you know, we have all kinds of sayings, like "Picture says more than a thousand words." MR: Right. JH: Why is it that it does that? That could be interesting. And maybe I don't know if it ends out with that, but I'm willing to do a PhD on that subject if it comes down to that. Because it would also be a very good selling point for people like us. But we have to draw because research tells us exactly that works in this and that way, you know. MR: And here's why. Yeah. JH: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's what I'm very, very occupied of as we're going into '24. And some of the things I'm trying to get laid out planned out, what's the direction for this and how do I somehow get that into motion? MR: Sounds like a keystone project for you. Something that could be a lifetime achievement kind of thing. JH: Mm-hmm. Hope so. Hope so. MR: Cool. JH: I'm very occupied with it right now, and I've been a couple of last years, and I've also—we haven't been talking about that. I've been in some other programs where we're talking about, I also made, you know one of the first, I don't know how it is in U.S., but I've been one of the founders of making visual communication, you know, as graphical visual communication education that actually gives you points as in a bachelor degree in Denmark. MR: That'd be cool. Yeah. JH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. MR: Yeah. That sounds excellent. JH: Yeah, it is. It is. MR: Well, Jimi, this has been really wonderful to chat and sort of have these interesting discussions. Thank you for sharing. JH: Of course. MR: How can we find you? Do you have a website? Do you have social media that we should check out? What's the best way to connect with you? JH: I'm everywhere. I didn't even mention, I'm also a certified social media manager. MR: Oh, really? JH: Yeah. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram. I was all on other platforms before, but, you know, I kind of narrowed it down. Also, I have two different websites. One for my art and my posters, which is my name Jimiholsterbro.dk, as in Denmark. And then I have, you know, the work platform, the work website for all the visualizations and movies and stuff I do, which is and it is a Danish word, it's taenkogtegn.dk. Taenk og tegn which means think and draw. There you can see a lot of work I've done with the visualization of vision strategies, movies, teaching, and stuff like that. So courses. Yeah. Also, of course, we have contact infos and mail addresses on those on those websites. But I think the fastest way would probably be on all the social media platforms. MR: Mm-hmm. Okay. JH: And everybody just reach out if you wanna have a chat or wanna ask me anything, it's okay. MR: So is your handle the same on all those social media platforms, and what is that handle? JH: My name, Jimi Holstebro. MR: Okay. Just Jimi Holstebro. It's pretty unique. JH: Yeah, yeah. MR: Cool. JH: That's Even Stevens. That's easy. MR: And we'll reach out to you and get links for all these things and make sure the show notes—we like to have robust show notes on the podcast. JH: Yeah. MR: So if you're listening and you wanna find any of these things, you can check there and go to any of those locations. JH: Very welcome. Yeah, very welcome. MR: Thank you, Jimi. This has been really great. I'm so thankful for the work that you do and how you're representing visual thinking and all the thinking that goes behind what you're doing, and how many people you're helping and businesses you're helping. I think it's great to have you representing the community, so thank you. JH: Likewise. Thank you, Mike. MR: And for everyone listening, that's another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Until the next episode, this is Mike and Jimi signing off. JH: Bye-bye.

In this episode, Claire Ohlenschlager, an avid doodler, shares how she developed her sketchnoting practice, found a thriving sketchnoting community, and awakened her passion for teaching. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Claire? Origin Story Claire's current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Claire Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Claire on Instagram Claire on LinkedIn Claire on Twitter Claire's Faces Wordpress Zentangle Method The Noun Project Lettering with Friends Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Hobonichi A6 Techo Paper Talent Paper Usem Note Cards TWSBI Fountain pen Sailor Fountain Pen Platinum Pigmented Fountain Ink Artline Fineliners Caran d'Adche Coloured Pencil Pop up Pencil Case iPad Adobe Fresco Procreate Tips Practice, because with practice, you develop your way of visual thinking. White spaces don't matter. It's not really about the tools, so don't go around buying a whole set. First, try it out before you invest in lots of tools that you are not going to use. Words will help you find the icons and the pictures. Metaphors will help sometimes. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike Rohde, and I'm here with Claire Ohlenschlanger. Claire, it's so good to have you on the show. Claire Ohlenschlanger: Thank you for having me. It's a very honor. MR: Well, I've been trying to get you on the show for a while, and just timing and other things haven't worked out, but we finally have you, and I'm excited. You're someone who's been involved in this community for a long time, and it's always good to hear the perspectives of people who have been in the community for a while. And it might be interesting for us to chat a little bit about that in our discussion too, and see, how does the community remain the same and maybe how has the sketching community changed a little bit? Obviously, we have new people coming in all the time, so that changes the community, which I think is great. But before we get into that, let's first start and let us know who you are and what you do. CO: Well, I'm Claire Ohlenschlanger. I live in the Netherlands in the Hague. A very small country. I work at the Rotterdam University of Applied Sciences, where I work at the Teacher Training College, languages department. I've been a teacher, I think this is my 34th year. Secondary education and now higher education. MR: That's really cool. CO: Yeah. I think it's the best job. It's hard work, but very rewarding. MR: Oh, yeah. That's true. CO: Yeah. MR: I really admire teachers. The more that I teach, the more I admire teachers because I see how hard the work is. I enjoy it. It's really satisfying, but it's really hard work, and when you get a really good teacher and you see it, I appreciate it. I know how hard it is to do it well. So, thank you for doing all this great teaching for many years for many different people. I'm sure that people appreciate you for that. CO: I think it's a very—it keeps me young. I was just saying that to my colleague because you work with young people, it kind of keeps me young, I feel, but it's very nice to see people grow and to help them progress and help them when they're kind of stuck. In the pandemic and the years after, a lot of kids have been stuck. MR: Yeah. CO: And so. It's extra challenging, but it's very rewarding at the moment. Very frustrating sometimes as well. MR: I suspect. Yeah. CO: Yeah. MR: So, I'm really curious how—so we know that you're here, you've been teaching for a long time. You've moved all the way through secondary to higher education, but how did you begin? As a little girl, you know, on your own—you do sketchnoting and visualization, right? Probably in your work, but also personally. How did you get here? Starting as a little girl, were you drawing all the time? what's the story and how did you end up where you are? CO: Well, I wasn't really drawing. I was always writing. So I was always making sure that I wrote in nice letters. And of course, I'm from pre-computer, so we had to do all the writing. And I also, as long as I can remember, I would always want to write with fountain pens and not with ballpoints or felt tip pens or maybe sometimes pencils. What I would also always like doing is add color to what I was doing so that what I wrote also looked nice. But not like we sketch these days, but I did spend a lot of time making things nice to read again. I would also do a lot is doodle. I'm not a very good drawer but am an avid doodler. So Lots of my notebooks, I still have a lot of them, have all these little doodles all around what I wrote. Actually, when I started, I couldn't stand messy pages because I would always spend a lot of time on making it—that's what people always say, "How can you write things down straight away, so neatly." But I think that's from when I was very young. I've always been like that. I've never been a drawer. I've developed into a sketcher. MR: Interesting. CO: Very simple. MR: Definitely an interesting perspective. Tell us a little bit more about that. CO: How I came to sketching is I think somewhere around 2010 or so. You know, every so often you have a seven-year itch. And I think I was having a seven-year itch, and then I decided to go back to Uni to start studying again. So I went to do an educational master's. And as it happened, on one of the first evenings after class I was walking home and I passed our bookstore, and our bookstore had a workshop on mind mapping that was just about to start. So I figured I'd sit down. And it was a very practical workshop. So we got a large piece of paper and some pens, or actually I probably had a pen. I always have pens in my bag, so I think I probably had the pens. And then he was telling us about how to mind map, and at the same time I was mind mapping. And that was actually my first-time taking notes of what I was hearing. And that worked so well for me that everything I did in my master's, I started off mind mapping. I mind map everything I heard on my lectures, but also the books and the articles I read. And gradually I found myself needing pictures and visuals. And then of course, I started because I was intrigued by the fact that it was helping me so much to, you know, remember and to retain the information. And while I was getting feedback, people telling me, "Oh, it looks so nice, and can I make a copy of it?" Et cetera. And so gradually, I found myself needing pictures. So I started looking into it, and that's how I came across your book. And then I thought that was really interesting. So then I looked into that, and then gradually I turned my mind maps into sketchnotes. So actually, quite often when I sketchnote, it has the order of a mind map that works from the top to the bottom back up again. And I noticed that the mind maps, how I started this is, I can still find it in my notes. I use a lot of colors and a lot of arrows and what you would do in mind maps. I think it's probably originates from that. When I did Uni, that was also when I was introduced to social media because I'd never even heard of social media. So I had to make a Twitter account to have a personal learning network and, you know, broaden that. So when I found your book, I started looking for you. And then of course I came across hashtags. And that way I got sucked into the community. Today's Doodle, I think Sketchnotes in Real life or Today's Doodle in Real Life, that's how I met Rob, Rob Dimeo, who started off and showed me you could make sketches in actual pictures. In the meantime, I bought an iPad. So I was kind of playing around with that. And that's where I met a lot of the Sketchnote community. And I was also intrigued by that because around that time, a lot of people my age were saying, "Oh, what are you doing on social media? Social media is scary. Lots of ugly things happen on social media." And I was just getting inspiration after inspiration. So that intrigued me as well. And then I started traveling. I like traveling. Then I started thinking, well, I'll just ask who in this community lives in whichever city I was going to. And then I found out that you could also meet up with sketchnoters that you met on internet in real life. And they were actually very nice. And that's right. Where I sometimes try to tell my friends that if you chat with each other and you have a common ground, like sketchnotes in our case, then eventually you also get to know people, you get to see their sense of humor, you see sense of humor in how people draw. Talking about something that you have in common also is binding. So meeting someone in real life then is as if you've known that person for a while. MR: Yeah. CO: That's what I really love about our community. It actually feels like I have friends all over the world. I've met some. You know, I've met you, I've met people at the International Sketchnote camps. I've met people outside of the camps, but in the cities, they live in, or shown people around the Hague here in the Netherlands. And you always have something to talk about. If you don't feel like talking, you always have something to sketch together. That's how one thing grew to another, because at the same time I met McKayla. The McKayla Lewis in London, and somehow James Sorreta in Australia. And we started talking to each other and I started saying, good morning, and good evening, because of course, there's such a huge time difference on my way into work. And that grew into me sketching, because what I always do on my way, on my commute is I also found myself—I have about a 40-minute commute to work by train, and there's a very small lapse, I think it's probably only about a minute, where we're kind of in internet digital no man's land and you don't have internet connection. I honestly think it's only about 10 seconds. But I found myself every time I got into that area, and my phone would not connect, I'd get this kind of feeling stress. And then I thought, that's not really very healthy. So I started taking these little, I don't know whether you remember them when we were in Lisbon? I had these little Usem note cards. MR: Yes. CO: The size of the business card. And I started taking them to school, and I started drawing on those. That's how I got into drawing a doodle a day. I always kind of tend to go overboard. I think I did that for about five days—five years. I switched from the Usem cards to Hobonichi because that paper is fantastic. MR: Beautiful. Yeah. CO: Yeah. So I started sketching my morning, evening for Mackey and James, and I think I also did that for three years every single day. And that turned into a huge box of things that I couldn't never throw away. So that's when I switched to making them digitally because then you can have a digital cupboard. And I did a couple of those with the community. So a couple of times I got to my 1000, or my, I don't know how many and then I thought, "Hey, how cool would it be if we could make one?" I think we even made something for you once. MR: Yeah. CO: I think we even drew you. I really love the way we can connect together. And I really love the idea that we can be all over the world and still be focused on doing the same thing and then make one thing together. That's very, very interesting. And I think it's very motivating. I get a lot of energy from that. So I've done a couple of those kind of projects. Yeah. We drew you in little kind of pixel boxes. MR: That's right. CO: I remember that now. Yeah. And then we made morning, evening together. And I had people from all over the world sending me. And of course, every time I did that, I regretted that I started it because there's always more work than you anticipate when you start off. The idea is always fun, but actually getting it to work is—but then that's a good thing of working at the Uni full of people who understand digital things much better than I do. So I always have someone, a student just who can help me out with all those kind of things. What also happened is, I think also those sketches, because I started drawing on those little, Usem papers, I'd go to conferences or talks or whatever, and then I'd wanted to sketch, and I usually only had those papers. And so, I'd have to sketch very small. And then obviously you can't use too many words. You need the little icons? And then I'd give them. Afterwards I'd take a picture for myself, and then I'd give the cards to whoever it was that was presenting. I also sent a lot of my Usem cards all over the world. I'd make a little happy birthday card, and then I'd tell people, "Give me your address and I'll send it to you." And then I'd get their email address, and I'd have to explain, "No, I mean, snail mail, and I'll send it to your home address." And not many people send you actual cards or anything written in the envelope with the stamp on it these days. So it brings me a lot of positive energy. MR: And I think the people that you share with get positive energy too. CO: Yeah. That's why I hope, yeah. That's why, I hope. And of course, you know, in Uni where I tried to explain—'cause all those mind maps I made during my master's, eventually I laminated them all and I put them together with a binder and they're always at the office. And then every so often when I see kids studying in my hallway feeling slightly frustrated, I take out my binder and I show them and I tell them, "You know, this is also a way for you to retain and to also make it fun. And drawing it makes you remember." You'll always remember, "Oh, yeah, I think it's probably in pink on the right-hand corner." And then you'll also remember, because you thought of an icon, the icon will trigger your memory and it really helps you remember. And yeah, quite a lot of my students try, not all of them persist, but quite a lot of them try and regularly I hear that it really helps them. So that's good. MR: Even if, I would suspect if they still say, type notes, but maybe they use drawings as a support mechanism, that could even be a win as well, right? CO: At the moment I don't teach that much anymore, but when I still did teach, I would actually tell them they had to have a notebook and they would have to take actual old school pen to paper notes. But I don't really like it MR: How did they react to that? I think some have notes. CO: Well, in the beginning, you know, when you start as a teacher, of course kids don't know you, but when you've been somewhere long enough, people already come in with their notebooks because they know. MR: Yeah. Reputation. CO: Yeah. And what also happens is it needs persistence. I remember one of my students a couple of years ago, and of course my students are already around 20 or so, so they're not very—they're still young, obviously, right? MR: Yeah. Yeah. CO: They're not really kids. And it took a lot of patience on my side and persistence. And then I think into the fourth week, he came to me and with a very proud facial expression, he showed me the notebook he had bought and the pen he had bought. And no, that's what he used. Then what I hope is that if they catch the hang of it, then it really helps them. MR: It does seem, you know, I was talking with somebody else about that too, that when you teach any kind of thing, some people will incorporate it into their lives more than others. Some not at all, some quite a bit, and some people in between. So that's just the normal thing, I suppose. CO: I don't think it matters because everyone has their own way, and what you have to do is at least give yourself the chance to find out what your way is, and not find yourself stuck in the computer because that's actually what they start off with. But to give yourself the chance to try out what works for you. MR: Yeah, it's having an option, right? Presenting an option. And maybe that doesn't fit for everyone, but for some people it's perfect, right? So, if you'd never— CO: And then it's up to—yeah, you can go. MR: I was gonna say, if you'd never been exposed to it, you wouldn't know if it works, right? CO: Yeah. That's what I was about to say. I think it's up to you as the teacher to show the different ways that they can actually try to study. Sometimes you tend to get stuck into your own way, into what works for you. But I think as a teacher, you're obliged to show them different ways because you have different kids there. MR: Yep. CO: Yep. MR: An interesting side note that I hadn't planned on, but I'm curious about is, and I have a theory around it is young people, at least that I encounter, seem to have a fascination with old analog things, record players. My son bought himself a turntable and he's buying records. I have a nephew who's really into Polaroid cameras. So, being on a college campus, do you sense any of this sort of an attraction toward analog things? And my theory is that because, you know, our generation, we grew up with all analogs. So digital was really interesting to us 'cause it was a new thing. But I think about this generation sort of steeped in digital stuff, that analog is now the fascinating thing. And so, that becomes attractive for them. Can you speak to that at all? CO: Yeah. I think I noticed that as well. What I also noticed at the moment here in the Netherlands there's this movement that kids aren't allowed to take their mobile phones to school, or at least not use them. What we're hearing back is the kids admitting that it gives them peace not to work with their mobile and not to have it in the vicinity. And that they're finally talking to their friends again and actually also starting to pick up books. I mean, it's still very early, but it's quite interesting to hear youngster saying these things because, you know initially when they started, of course, they were all stressed out that they would be shut outta the world as they know it. And so, it's actually very interesting to hear youngster saying that. MR: Interesting. CO: Yeah, it's interesting. What I do know is that in education, people are promoting taking notes again with pen and paper more so than they've been doing in the past decades, I think. So I think that's a good sign because research shows that that's the best way to remember and to learn and to study. I'm a language teacher, in COVID time, of course everything was digital because we were teaching through computers. And what happened was that when the kids came back, they couldn't write anymore. So they were having a lot of difficulty actually writing their essays because they didn't have the time. And of course, always in a test you have a set time and they weren't used to writing and then having to correct and having to rewrite the whole thing again. Because of course, obviously on the computer, you can copy paste or throw away or add. So that was also very interesting how quickly you also forget. MR: Yeah. It's a lot of practice. CO: You need the practice. So one of the tips I would give is practice, practice, practice. It's not about doing it right straight away. It's copy that makes sure to develop your own style. MR: Interesting. CO: Yeah. I have my stick figure and my stick figure is my stick figure. I think people recognize that it's mine, but it's a stick figure. So it's not really anything very special except my own style is in it for you to recognize it. That's why sometimes you have all these companies that do sketchnotes, and what you see is a lot of the same thing. So here, you know, you have a lot of stick figure for visual note taking, and it's very difficult to see the style of the person who wrote it because it's set in standards of how you draw the stick figures, the coloring, et cetera. And I think in my opinion, the best thing is to do is to develop your own style because the moment it's your own, it's more authentic and more real. MR: Yeah. It's part of you. It's an extension of you. CO: It's part of you. Yeah. It's like you do your pizza or your Packers or whatever you do, you recognize your style is the same, the approach is the same. You know instantly which of you drew the sketch that you're looking at. MR: Yeah. That's pretty fascinating. CO: Yeah. It's like handwriting, but then in sketches. MR: Yeah. It's extended. CO: Yeah. MR: So you mentioned doing Morning and Evening. It sounds like you're not doing that now, or maybe you are, but digitally is there a project that you're working on right now that you would like to share and talk about? CO: No. Well, the little drawings I do, they help me relax. What I notice at the moment is I'm doing a lot of Zentangle things because I'm extremely busy at my work. And it really helps me unwind at the end of the day. It helps me focus on something completely different and it really relaxes me before I go to sleep so that I don't go to sleep with all these hectic work-related thoughts on my mind. MR: Yeah. Yeah. CO: I'm busy. I've got another project going with all kinds of different Zentangles. So it's something completely different. And I think the interest is, you know, when I contemplate on what I do is I'm not a specialist in anything. I tend to do lots of different things. I always like projects and I try to look at different things to do. So I'm an extremely creative person in a huge variety of creativity. MR: Interesting. CO: I do a lot of picking up, you know, Mackey would say rubbish. Picking up rubbish from the ground and then I make something. I make a little figurine from that. In COVID time, what kept me going was going on walks. So I'd pretend to go to work at the beginning of the day and pretend to go home at the end of the day. And then I take pictures and that developed into all these pictures, and then I make collages of whatever it is I see. Sketchwise, I think at the moment it's the Zentangles that I'm doing. You have Inktober, so I like to do something for a whole month, the same kind of thing. And then it gives you a nice collection. MR: Yeah. CO: Yeah. MR: Interesting. I know a little bit about Zentangle. I think it's fascinating. And we'll put a link in the show notes for anyone who's never heard of it before to look at it. It's really cool. It's really cool. CO: It's very meditative. Yeah. MR: It's some crossover between sketchnoting—it is a visual practice, but it's very personal, I think. And the way to kind of get thoughts out of your head as you talked about. CO: Yeah. And the personal thing is somehow in everything I do, all kinds of art things, I always need words. So I always think of words and I like incorporating words or a sentence into whatever it is I'm doing. And this morning I was thinking, I'm going to try a Zentangle that incorporates a word into it or something. I think that's probably also my personal thing because otherwise Zentangle they can look alike. So I'm looking at how can I make my own Zentangle signature or something like that. MR: Something of a crossover. CO: Yeah. Yeah. MR: Interesting. CO: Yeah. Yeah. MR: Well, you know, one of my memories doing something creative with you, you mentioned Lisbon, is when I reached out to you and said, "Hey, let's do a workshop on lettering." CO: Yeah. MR: And that was so much fun, right? We got a little projector and we each kind of presented our different ways of doing things. And encouraging people to say like, "You know, Mike does it this way, and Claire does it this way. They're just inspirations for you to do it your way. These are some starting points." CO: And we did them on the Usem cards. MR: On those little cards. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. CO: It doesn't have to be huge. It can be small and it can be yours. And we did coffee, we did the cards with the coffee and told people to make their own cards around coffee. MR: Right, right. We'll have to link to those cards too, for someone to find them, so. CO: Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned the international camp, and of course, the international camp is also great the way that came into existence and how people meet there as well. MR: Yeah. Yeah. If you're listening and you are curious about it, we have interviews, I think with every organizer of the event past seasons. But basically, it was four women in Germany who decided— CO: Yeah, Exactly. Yeah. MR: - they wanted to make something happen, and they just—that's the way the community is. Someone just decides we're gonna do it. Kinda like Claire and I decided, "Hey, let's do a thing on lettering." Like no one gave us permission. We just decided, right? So I think that community mindset is all through, and anybody that comes into the community feels that, and I think that's really empowering to feel like you can do it. CO: It reminds me of in COVID time we did the sketchnote on location museum visits. MR: Yes, I remember that. CO: Yeah. That was also so cool. And sometimes, I mean, I don't want a pandemic ever again, but somethings that happened in the pandemic were very cool. MR: Yeah. It showed that you can be creative. Yeah. CO: I remember here we had the first signs of COVID happening in Italy. And I thought the Marro and Mario, and I felt sorry for them. So I sent a couple of the community members a message saying, "Shall we send Marro and Mario a positive message every morning?" And I gathered all these messages not knowing that we were actually going to be in the same situation as they were, because I just thought it would stay isolated in poor old Italy and not to reach us. But then of course it did. You can send out a question like that and people actually want to participate and then they also participate. If you have a lot of people, some people had to wait for 20 days, and then they actually wait, and on their day, they post something. MR: They're excited. Yeah. CO: Yeah, yeah. I really like that. I really like that. It also brings me to, at the moment, with everything that's going on Twitter, I feel like our community is quieter. MR: Yeah, I think so. CO: At least. Yeah. Yeah MR: It's spreading out a little bit. You know, we have a Slack channel for Sketchnote Army, which you can of course check out. I know there's other people that are creating private chat areas and I think probably individuals are probably chatting with each other, but I think there is—maybe that could be an encouragement for this year is find some way, some public place. I think it's maybe moved to Instagram to some degree, but, you know, it's more visual there, it's not— CO: It's a bit different. MR: Yeah. It's different. CO: It's not about the conversations. On Twitter, you could wake up in the morning and you had 89 messages or something like that. In Instagram you don't have—maybe you have—also, I'm on Slack, but— MR: It's different. CO: You also have that on—it's different somehow, but, and maybe it's also digital fatigue after pandemic. MR: Could be, yeah. CO: That's also quite possible that people need detoxing from the digital world. MR: Yeah. There's quite a lot of dynamics involved probably, I suspect. CO: Yeah. Yeah. MR: You know, talking about the International Sketchnote Camp, it's happening in 2024 in Texas, the details aren't available yet 'cause Prof. Clayton, who's organizing is still working out details. But he's a professor of a university in Texas, in San Antonio. It would be centered around San Antonio. An opportunity for maybe some Europeans to make it to the states and see that and have some great barbecue of course and tacos and the things that are unique to San Antonio and Texas. So as we get more information, we'll of course post that. If you haven't been to one of those, especially if you're in the U.S., this would be a great opportunity for you to come to it. CO: Yeah, I think especially if you're in the U.S. because they've all been here in Europe. I can imagine that people in the U.S., It's a lot of money of course, that you have to spend. If it's in the U.S., it's closer to home, but it's such a nice experience. It reminded me of, you know, when I was at school as a kid, he would go on weeks with your class and you'd have fun— MR: School trips. Yeah. CO: - doing silly things and laughing your heads off and having, you know jaw pain and stomach aches because you laughed too much. MR: Laugh so much. Yeah. CO: Yeah. Yeah. MR: You don't want it to end, you know, at the end of this time. CO: And sing together and dance together, and when you get older, maybe sometimes you feel like you can't behave that way anymore, but it's— MR: We do. CO: I remember when we were here in Leiden, the last day we danced and sang and it's so much fun. It's so much fun. I mean, I always think never grow up. And sometimes it's good to have that feeling and to just laugh out loud. MR: Yeah. places where you can be yourself. CO: Yeah. Laugh out loud to silly things that you can't describe to people who weren't there. Very difficult to describe to people who weren't there. So I would tell my colleagues and you know, people who haven't been there and who don't know that, I think they don't understand why it's so much fun, but it's a lot of fun. MR: Yeah. It is. Definitely it is. CO: Yeah. It's hard work for whoever organizes it. MR: Yeah. But, you know, it's for the community, so there's satisfaction in delivering it to the community. That's what I've noticed in all the organizers when they're done, they feel tired but it's like a good tired when you do something of meaning and you're tired for a good reason. That's the kind of feel that they often have. CO: Yeah. And definitely, I mean, how cool is it to see people enjoying themselves over something that you organized. MR: Yeah. Super satisfying. CO: Yeah. yeah. MR: So, we'll have more information on the Sketchnote Army page when that's officially announced, which I think should be relatively soon. I won't speak for Prof, but maybe by the time this recording comes out, it'll already be announced. I dunno. We'll see. CO: Yeah. MR: So you mentioned you mentioned these little cards, and that reminds me to talk to you about your favorite tools. You mentioned too that you do digital. But let's first talk about analog tools since we're old school and we love our analog tools. What are your favorite pens? You talked about these cards. Are there notebooks that you like? Any other stuff that you use that you can share with us that maybe might inspire someone to try something new? CO: I'd say Hobonichi is number one. Hobonichi paper is perfect. I always like the small sizes, so the A6, Techo. These days I use Talens. It's a Dutch brand. Which is very nice paper, but not so much if you're writing with a fountain pen, which I like. And then Fountain pen-wise I like TWSBI. TWSBI has a very nice pen point. And I really like extra fine. I don't really like the medium. I always like writing an extra fine. And then the extra finest is a Sailor Fountain pen. So fountain pen. And then I use I think it's—now I can't remember the—but anyway, the watertight ink in the converter in my fountain pen. I don't remember the make anymore. Diplomat ink. And then for using fineliners yeah, recently I've been using Art Line. I picked up an Art Line, I think on—I'm not sure, at a sketchnote camp sometime, maybe even in Portugal. So I don't remember. And they're very—now, I used to use Uni Pin, I think it was called Uni Pin. MR: Yep. I've used those. CO: Actually I'm using Art Line a lot. And they're very water tight. They're actually really black-like. MR: Nice. CO: And some of the pens, if you press too hard, the tips kind of disappear into the pen. MR: Squish. CO: Yeah, yeah. That doesn't happen with those. And then I like using colored pencils and then have to think what's—oh yeah, Carand'ache. MR: Okay. French. CO: And then the watercolor pencils because you can— MR: You can put some water on them. CO: Watercolor pencils are really good colors. If you press hard, they're actually very dark. I don't know how you say that. MR: Yeah, intense. Yeah. CO: Intense colors. Yeah. MR: And then I think you can use water to spread them too as well. CO: You can use water. Yeah. And so, those are the things I use most. And then you have the Usem cards. The sad thing is the guy who made the Usem cards and sold them, et cetera, he passed away last year. So they're looking for someone to take over his business. So it's down for the moment, but I'd still share the—because they're working on, you know, someone else doing it. MR: Keeping it going. CO: It probably be up again. Yeah. I like using small, and so like what I'm doing now is, what I do is I have these little— MR: Oh, I can see them. CO: A little gift tag. MR: Yeah, like a price tag or something. CO: Yeah. And then a little gift tag. And then I tie them together, and then I put that in my coat pocket. And then sometimes I just take them out, and then I always have a pen in my coat pocket and a little packet of those. And then I just sketch or Zentangle, or write a word that I want to remember or whatever. And on my holidays, what I've been doing is these little wooden pegs, and then I sketch the name of wherever it is I'm visiting, and I put those in all my pictures. MR: Oh, nice. CO: That's how—yeah. And then digital. So I have an iPad Pro. I tried working with the Remarkable for my notes at work but it didn't work. I need paper. I need to feel paper, I need to feel the flow of my fountain pen on the paper, and I need to be able to color in with red or wherever in my lettering. And Remarkable doesn't do colors so Remarkable was a bit boring. And iPad is too smooth to do that. I tried the sticker thing on top, but also so— MR: Still wasn't enough. The paper— CO: Still it wasn't enough. I like writing on paper, but when I do my sketches—so I do a lot of sketching for all kinds of educational things here in the Netherlands, and I do those on my iPad. And when I'm sketching as a sketchnote, I usually use Adobe. I think it's called Fresco. MR: Yes. CO: It used to use Pro, but it changed. I'm still kind of getting used to Fresco because things work a bit differently. And when I'm doing a more kind of artistic look to it, then I use Procreate. MR: Okay. 'Cause of the brushes they have available of course. CO: Yeah. They have different kinds of brushes and blurring and they have so many possibilities that I think Fresco's a bit harder. It looks like writing on paper more than Procreate. Can also look that way, but it also does a lot of as if you're using a brush or whatever. MR: It is interesting that these— CO: In the more artistic way. MR: - tool has a field to it, right? You know? CO: Yeah. MR: Great. Does feel like it's made for making art. CO: Yeah, exactly. And I used to do a lot on my phone just with my finger, and I used to draw on my phone, but since I have my iPad, I usually have my iPad in my bag. Also, I have a far too heavy bag. I'm always carrying around everything. And then I have, you know Diana's little pencil case? MR: Yeah. Yeah. CO: And it always starts off relatively flat and empty. And then within a week it's far too full. And then my bag gets heavier and heavier and I have to empty and sort it all again. MR: Reset. We have to reset. CO: And then I'm sure you recognize I have far too many pens, but I'm still always able to find a pen that I really need and I can't do without, and then I just have to get it. So, when I was in Jordan a couple of weeks ago, and we arrived on the December 31st at 11:00 p.m. And right across the street of our hotel was a little pen shop— MR: Oh, nice. CO: - which was open on December 31st at half past 11 at night. So I had a stroll around that. And of course, had to buy two little pens, which I really needed. MR: Of course. CO: Probably not, but still. MR: You can rationalize anything, right? Yeah. CO: Yeah. Yeah. MR: That's great. That's great. Well, we'll have to make sure and put links into the show notes, especially Diana's pencil case. The standup pencil case. So we'll find that link as well. CO: Diana pencil is really good. MR: Yeah. So now let's shift into the tips section. So this is where I frame it as, imagine someone's listening or watching, they're visual thinker of some kind. Maybe they feel like they've reached a plateau, or they just need a little bump of inspiration, what would you tell that person in three tips? CO: Well, I think I'd start off with practice. And because with practice, you develop your own way of visual thinking. 'Cause It's about paper layout. When you start, you want to have an idea of how you're going to place things on paper, which also I think brings me to that white spaces don't matter. When I started, I would put everything together. And it would kind of intertwine 'cause sometimes you want to add a picture or a word, or you want to tie it together with a border or with a color or whatever. I think another tip would also be don't be afraid of white spaces because in the end, what you do is you finish it off and you'll notice that those white spaces won't matter. You also need a bit of peace and quiet in your sketch. If it's too full, it's too much. And if you're able to work in quiet spots in your sketch, I think it's also good to have a bit of peace of and quiet on your paper or in your notes. And I think with all the talking about tools, et cetera, It's not really about the tools because like I was saying about my students, I think you have to try, and then you try different tools, and then you work out that, you know, you prefer the 0.1 over the 0.8 pen or the other way around. And whether you prefer the Caran d'Ache over Stabelo pencils or whatever. And it's not really about the tool, so don't go around buying whole sets. Start off with one. You know, usually you can also buy one color of a certain pen or a certain pencil. First try it out before you invest in lots of tools that you're not really going to use. And that's why I also think of buying a whole box of pencils or a whole box of felt tip pens or whatever colors, there's a lot of colors you're never going to use. MR: Right. CO: Yeah. So it might feel like it's more expensive to buy the single pencil, but in the end, if you're only going to be using three of the colors of a whole box in these days, you know, you'll have to think about not wasting too much. Yeah. MR: Cool. Those are— CO: That would be—I don't know, did I say things in pictures? I'm not sure whether I said that already. MR: That can be number four, I guess. Yeah. CO: I do drawings for educational meetings. And then they'll have a theme. And then I always find myself saying is if they have a theme for one of their evenings, they have a title. The title is usually very general. So I find myself always asking them, what kind of words do you think of within your theme? And those words will help you find the icon and the pictures and metaphors will help sometimes as well. And that reminds me that a good link would also be is the Noun Project. MR: Yeah. CO: Yeah. The Noun Project is where, if you have a word, you can type it in and it gives you all kinds of digital drawings that people have made little icons, and not that you use them, but they are good for inspiration for what you can use in your drawing yourself or in your sketch. So I use that a lot as well with the Noun Project. Yep. MR: That's great. Those are great tips. We have four good tips and solid ones that you can apply right away. Thank you. CO: Good. MR: So tell us, Claire, what's the best way to reach you? A website, social media, if someone would like to follow your work and reach out and say hi. CO: I think I'm most active on Instagram. So that would be #claire_ohl. My name Ohlenschlager, that's far too long. And that's where I post a lot, it's not everything. And of course, I don't post the notes I take at work anymore. MR: Right. CO: In my profile, I have the link to a WordPress called Claire's Creativities. I haven't updated those. But if you look in that, then you see—well, I just described that I'm very diverse. I'm not a specialist, so I do lots of things. And then you'll see all kinds of things I do that aren't necessarily sketch noting, but still recognizably me. So, yeah. MR: That's great. That's great. Well, we'll definitely put that in the show notes as well. So if you wanna see her work or reach out and say hi, you can certainly do so. CO: Yeah. I'll let you know the names, I'll send them to you just to be sure, the names of my pen and my notebook. MR: Yeah, for sure. We'll get that to make sure we put those in the show notes. Perfect. CO: Yeah. Well, Claire, thanks for being on the show. More importantly, thank you for being part of our community. Thanks for being a leader, for being so welcoming and caring and connecting. You're another part of this community that's connected us together. So thank you for your contributions. I really appreciate you and the work you've done, because you've made a lot of people's lives better. Thank you. CO: Thank you very much, Mike. Very kind words. Thank you. And thank you for inviting me, and thank you for being my inspiration, because that's what you're, and I'm sure you're to many other people in our community. MR: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that as well. CO: Yeah. Yeah. MR: Well, for anyone who's watching or listening, it's another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Until the next episode, we'll talk to you soon.

Pierpaolo Barresi shares how he’s always dreamed of creating something significant. He founded Yobi Scribes, an Italian company that uses creativity, art, games, and communal enjoyment to help achieve business objectives. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Pierpaolo Barresi? Pierpaolo's Origin Story Pierpaolo's current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Pierpaolo Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Yobi Scribes Website Pierpaolo on LinkedIn Pierpaolo on Instagram Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Uni-posca Markers GROG Markers iPad Wacom Tablet Adobe Illustrator Tips Have fun. Do what you know. Give thanks. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike, and I'm here with my friend Pierpaolo Barresi. Pierpaolo, how are you doing today? It's so good to have you. Pierpaolo Barresi: Yeah, nice to meet you, all the people. Nice to meet you again, Mike. Super nice, sunny day in Bologna. So I smile more than rainy days. MR: I can relate to that. Living in Milwaukee, we're in the middle of a snowstorm now. So hopefully, I'll be happy after I'm done shoveling today. We'll see. Anyway, well, so Pierpaolo is one of the principal creators of Yobi Scribes. We've continually bumped into each other all over the internet and through friends like Mauro Toselli, and it just seemed like it was time to have Pierpaolo on the show and learn his story and hear what he does and all those things. So, Pierpaolo, let's start with who you are and what you do. PB: Yeah. I am a South Italy guy. I started from the bottom, from the very bottom of Italy. I'm a young boy now. I am more or less 40 years old, and I'm the creative director of Yobi Scribes. Yobi Scribes is a creative crew of artists, designers, scribers, sketchers, knowledge workers, a lot of competence and super nice people is in Yobi. And we are in Italy active, from more or less 10 years. I started as a self-employed, just me. But my idea from when I was a young boy is to create something bigger, is to share with the others. If you ask me, which is your art? My art, my talent is to connect people and to create things together. So this is my short story. MR: Great. And so, it sounds like you have quite a variety of skills that you offer to companies and individuals, one of which is scribing, right? Like graphic recording, graphic facilitation, sketchnoting, but it sounds like even more than that. Tell me a little bit more about what Yobi Scribes does, and then also where does this name Yobi come from? What does it mean? PB: There is an interesting story behind the name Yobi. As Yobi Scribes team, we do mainly scribes and graphic recording, is our core business. The machine is moved by the scribes. We also do graphic design, illustration for internal companies. So we work mainly with the internal part of the companies. We also do videos. We do also some facilitation and creative skill boosters. We love to call this in this way. We try to connect objective with creativity, reaching objective through creativity, through art, through games, through having fun together. So scribing is the last part in some way because everything comes and join into the scribes, but we try to support and help the company in a bigger way. MR: That's really cool. So the name Yobi, what's the significance of that name? PB: Yobi comes from stupid research on Google Maps. We were looking for a short name that was memorable, that was connected with our background. Two of the founders have a huge important hip-hop and graffiti background. So we come from this kind of mood and field. And Yobi, "Yo" is one of the--is like Ciao in Italian. "Yo" is for the black people and also the Italian people in the U.S. say "Yo." We find that this national park in Papua New Guinea close to New Zealand, just moving the mouse around Google Maps like that looking for a name. And when we see this name, we say, "Whoa, this is the name." We found that the next step is to have a company journey altogether in Yobi, it's not so close to Italy, but one day it is in our objective. MR: So it is an actual place then in Papua New Guinea sounds like? PB: Yes. Yes. MR: Interesting. PB: I think it's a gross place. It is not the beautiful place over there. If you look on Google Maps, it is not the best place of the region of the nation. MR: Sure. PB: Sometimes people tag Yobi on Instagram from the place, and we see the stories. It is the end of arrival. Just not so beautiful. But for us, it's wonderful. MR: Interesting, interesting. So, I have a funny little story about Google Maps, if you'd like to hear it. PB: Yes. I want to hear it. MR: So my son, now he's 21, but when he was a little boy when he was, I dunno, eight or nine years old, we had set up a computer for him to play games on Thomas The Train games and such. One of the games he wanted to always play was Google Maps. At the time, they had an application that you could search around the world. It started with a globe, and you would zoom in. He sat behind me in my office at the time I sat on the other side. He was home from school one day, and I hear him going, "Woo, woo woo." And I'm like, "What are you doing, Nathan?" I turned around and he said, "I'm playing Google Maps." And you just see this globe floating in space. He thought that was the funniest thing, was to make this the earth shake, like, you know, like crazy. So that was pretty funny. PB: We played the same game. MR: Really? Yeah, exactly. That's how you ended up with the name. That's great. PB: Yes. So the names come from this creative research. MR: Yeah, exactly. That's great. That totally fits with your whole way of being, right? So that makes total sense. So with Yobi Scribes, tell me how you got to that place. Now, you're doing this thing. How did you end up there? Where did you grow up? Did you grow up in Bologna or have you travelled? Were there things that happened that sort of directed you bit by bit toward the life that you have now? I would love to hear that story. PB: Super. I born, as I told you, in South Italy in a small town close to the sea--in front of the sea. I studied at Classic Lyceum for my high school. Then I moved to Naples. It's a longer travel story. Then I moved to Naples to study law. I studied two years law. Then I recognized that not mine, and I changed and move from Naples to Bologna. MR: Okay. PB: In Bologna, I start to study anthropology. And after my degree in anthropology, I was a little bit, "Oh, what I have to do now? I want to do graphics. I want to do something with my hands. I want to create using my mind and my hands together. Not only my mind or not only my hands." And I decided to start a career as a graphic designer. Starting also in this case, from the bottom, making flyers for my friends. My friend was a musician, was an artist. I am not able to play nothing. So I start to make graphics for them using my background as a graffiti writer, as a drawer, not illustrator. I don't want to say illustrator. After that, I study in this school, and from this school I win master degree in a school in Milan, the science school in Milan. And I move from Bologna to Milan. In Milan in this master's, a person that already knows graphic facilitation, scribes, my mentor comes to run a workshop, and I immediately fall in love with him and with the methodology. Also, because the only things that helped me in my studies, in my career as a student was to sketching things. I already studied working and thinking with the sketching. My graffiti background also helps me to understand immediately the power of graphic recording and graphic facilitation. Because when you make graffiti and especially illegally, you have the same splitting of your brain like when you do scribing. With a left part, you draw and see the space and the flow. With the right parts, you pay attention. In one case, don't be captured. In the other case, listen to the other, but it's the same splitting. MR: Wow. Well, it sounds like you almost gathered all these parts, right? And also, interesting that you went all the way from the toe of Italy all the way up to the very top of the boot, right? So from the bottom to the top in a sense. PB: Yes. MR: And then, you know learning about law for two years and all these other experiences, anthropology, which it's interesting there's some ties between anthropology and user experience design as well, because you're, you know, observing people and how they act in a natural environment to learn how to improve, you know, the design of the thing that they're going to use, right? So all I would imagine all these things maybe are helpful for you and the work that you do. Would that be true? PB: Absolutely, yes. When I was in my career as a student, I can recognize this can help me, or I was young to recognize. But now, I really use and I'm great to myself to make anthropology, but also law, also Classical Lyceum are things that have opened my mind, especially in the relation with the clients, especially in the understanding the clients is super important for our career, for my career now and for our career. I talk as a Yobi as a group, so I will speak us together sometimes. Just to finish the story of my-- MR: Yeah, please. PB: I will jump into this field. The person that comes in the workshop ask for a guy to make an internship with him. So I move back in less than one year from Milan again to Bologna. And I stay one year and a half in the studio looking, listening, as a sponge, I try to catch more things and more information for myself. And after this period, I start my self-career honored only by me. Is like a fiscal number, personal fiscal number. I made eight years alone. After eight years the first that joined Yobi was Monica. And now we are four people in the studio. MR: Wow. Wow. So you sort of, you know, live the life for eight years doing it yourself and probably saw all the places like, "Man, I wish I had someone else who could do--who thought like this, or who could spread the load a little bit." Probably all those things, right? I'm really curious what role do you play now. Obviously, you do scribing still, 'cause there's only four of you. You probably have to, but who does like the company management and those things? Is it spread across the four of you? Is that something that you focus on? Or are there a few people that do sort of the--you know, you have to get the customers and you have to book them and the invoicing and the paperwork and taxes and all that stuff, which unfortunately comes with the whole story of being a business. Who sort of manages all those things? PB: Me. MR: Okay. PB: I'm just joking, but yes. The thing is in this period, in the last two years, my professional life is changing from a creative life to a manager life. But it's a process of killing ego first. Because if you want to grow up, you have to kill your ego, and you have to trust the people that can speak for you, work for you and make things how you imagine. My idea is, don't create copy of me, but to have people that can add value and to pass the logistic way of my idea to my team. But in this moment, I'm looking to a lot of things. There is Monica that is helping and looking for me in into the art direction part, into the creative part. She's more focused on it. And also, she's focused on the video editing, video scribing part. But the administration is in charge of me for now. My idea is to delegate as more I can. A little to come back to be more creative, the more practice, because I want to do scribes a lot, and again and again. It's really my passion. When I make scribe it is like a happy crying, and I feel some light hits me. I feel scribing is my thing. But my thing is also, as I told you, organize, manage people, and try to create new things together, not only with my hands, but with my vision. Yes. MR: Yeah. Well, I could see some advantages in a company like that where if you have three other people who could do scribing and different skills, they each bring their own perspective. It makes you a stronger company, right, because you now have three different ways, like, oh you like the way Monica does it, she could take that job, or so and so could take this other job because their skills are really good at that thing, right? So you diversify, I suppose. Then the next thing for you maybe is now that you've internalized all the running of the company, you know what you need. Now you can hire an administrator, you know, to do certain things, to free you up to do that creative stuff. So maybe the fifth person isn't a creative person, but maybe an administrator who does sort of the things that take you away from the creative work, right? PB: Yeah. The next step is to hire an administrator. I think just to have a complete view of my idea is when you want to grow up, the two processes are making people happy. So simply paying the right fee for them to be happy and also killing your ego. I killed my ego so now we are just growing. We have Monica as creative director and our director, we have a copywriter. We have a young illustrator that she's learning scribing and she's trying to learn as much as possible visual methodologies. The next step is to hire an administration. Step by step. We don't want to scale up too fast because we want to do the things in the natural flow. MR: Yeah. I think following an organic path makes sense in this case. And it's really interesting too, because remember in your origin story you said that you were just like this new person you hired trying to absorb as much as possible and learn, right? So maybe that person in the future, at some point, maybe they start their own Yobi Scribes, right? Like, you'd never know. Right. But you're sort of following the cycle. The cycle that you went through is now the cycle that your team is learning through as well, which is really cool. PB: Yeah. And also, I think we, as scribers, as graphic facilitators, as graphic recorders, are really lucky people. We have the possibility to learn a lot from big companies, from open-minded people. So, one of my goal life, the first is to share what I learn with the others is. To pass my competence to some other one, to create more and more and more visual communication for the world, for the people. I really believe, and I really, truly believe in the methodology. So for me, it's super important to have an Infiniti loop. MR: Yeah, exactly. You become-- PB: To grow all together. MR: Yeah. And then you become Obi-Wan Pierpaolo, right? So you become the old master teaching the Padawan, right? PB: No. No, no, no. It is not in my objective to be the Obi-Wan. MR: That's funny. PB: We just want to make beautiful and useful things for the others. MR: That's good. That's good. So we've talked about who you are, what you do, your company, how you got here. Can you talk about a recent project that you're excited about that you can tell us about and what that looked like? What did you do? Were there videos or other components outside of the scribing that were part of it, and how does that look when you deliver it to the customer? PB: Okay. One of the last projects of the year 2023 was a video we created for small company that produce sustainable energy. And they asked us to create some story that could be catchy for different age of target. We tried to do old 90-style cartoon. We work a lot on this and we were really happy of the results. The client was really happy of the results. Now in the New Year, in this year, we are starting to work a lot to keeping notes and keeping trace of their work with sketching and with pencil and not with the digital tools. And also, we are working with several university on this field. And this is another part of Yobi that me and also my team like a lot to help the young people to try to make in their mind there is a possibility. "There is another possibility for me, and this could be a new way for me." We love to see the eyes shining in the young generation, and that fills our heart and our mind. MR: That's really cool. PB: As scribes with restarted normally. Also, in digital, but also in a handmade version. And we will go in Sofia in February to follow the next Sofia event that will be about limitless. So we move also in Europe in this year. We are trying to cover Italy as much as possible. One of our objectives is to be the best, the number one company that do this in Italy, step by step. But also, we are looking to Europe. MR: Yeah. There's certainly opportunity for sure. That's really great. So you've talked about a project. Now I would love to hear, shifting, what kind of tools do you and your company like to use? I have my guesses, but it's always interesting to hear, especially if there's some unusual tools that you use. And let's start with analog first and then digital second. If indeed, you still use analog tools as part of your process. PB: Okay. The best tool we use--I can say the product name. MR: Yes, please. Please. PB: Yes. Okay. We use mainly Uni-Posca's and GROG tools. The GROG are graffiti markers. The one that drips also when you see in the city, some drip text is made with this kind of marker like a mop. And these ones are the best one for us. They are acrylic colors. They feel on a lot of surfaces. That's the reason we love this one because with these two kinds of markers, we are sure the surface will be covered with the right color in the right way. Almost always. But we try a lot of markers. We come from a world, as I mentioned before graffiti that mix technology and techniques like spry, rolls, paints. We try to use different tools, but it depends by the project. For the digital obviously, normal ones are Procreate and iPad. But also, we love to use a still Illustrator, like all designers. MR: Right, yeah. Yeah. So that would be on the computer. Do you use something like a Wacom tablet with a pen or just the mouse? PB: Yes. We have two Wacom tablets in the studio and several iPads for the live scribes or for some small projects. It depends. When we have to print, we normally use Illustrator and Wacom. If we have to create and produce something for the web, we go directly on Procreate. Also, for the animation, the world is changing because Adobe is not the--yes, it's still the best, but a lot of competitors of Adobe is still trying to do something easier than use the software of Adobe. Procreate is growing with the animation parts, and we put use both Adobe and Procreate to create a short animation. Maybe we animate in Procreate and then edit in Premier to have a more professional editing. It depends on project by project. MR: Yeah. It's always good to have more tools, right? Because then you can choose the tool that's right for the job. PB: Yes. And we--yeah. No, sorry. MR: Yeah. Otherwise, you know--I mean, sometimes you get interesting results by using the wrong tool for the job. I've seen that happen where because you use the wrong tool for the job 'cause that's what I have, it produces a really interesting output, which actually you might come to like, right? I don't know. I can't think of an example, but I know I've had that happen where I just grab the pen that's available to me and think, "Well, this is not the right pen, but that looks really interesting." And you kind of go with it, right? PB: Yeah. And you open an open door with me because I think there is no wrong way to create. The only way to create is experiment. Is mixing technology, techniques. Especially in this era, if you want to create something new, you have to mix, you have to experiment, you have to try to find something new. Is not so easy finding something new. But if you experiment, you can try to also to put yourself out in a different way. If we use the same brush, all the scribes, we use the same brush in Procreate, all the scribes will be more or less the same. If you try to experiment and to put yourself experimenting, trying, having fun on what you do, the difference comes out. MR: Yeah. This is an interesting--now that you talk about this, this brings up a thought that I've had, and I don't think I've talked much about it, is that the tool you use can change the output of the way you work, right? So when I use a brush pen, it changes the way I work. You wouldn't think so. You would think, I mean, still there's the Mike Rohde personality is coming out of it, but it gets expressed in a little bit different way when I'm using a brush than when I'm, say using, you know, something like a big Neuland fat marker with a--you know, like the output, it changes the way I work. And it's interesting that we don't often think about that. We just think, well, tools are just interchangeable. But I think in a lot of ways, the kind of tool can sort of shape the output to some degree. Maybe not completely, but have you found that as well? And I think that might be an opportunity, while we're talking about tools, is to maybe use intentionally--what if the experiment is to intentionally use the wrong tool and get frustrated, but then find the unique, like, "Wow, that's really--for 80 percent of what I wanted, it didn't work for that 20 percent, that's really cool. Maybe I can use that in a future project, right? I usually do that, right? I'm fooling around and I discover something and I try to remember to use that in some way or find a way I can use that kind of mistake as an intentional thing. Has that happened with your team as well? PB: Yes. We think nothing go into the trash. When you do something, you get some experience and maybe you will not use this experience for years and years and years, but when you need this, you already know. If you have a lot of space in your head and you feel it, when you need something, you immediately remind what you need. We have also to play, to use our mind as a computer. Some information you have to delete, some information you have to keep. And this kind of information is what can help you to grow and to make new things, beautiful things, useful things. MR: Excellent. Excellent. Well, that's good to hear. Sounds like we're on the same page. Let's shift now to tips. I warned you a little bit ahead of time. So the way I frame this is I say, imagine someone's listening or watching us, and they're a visual thinker of some kind, but they feel maybe they're in a rut or they just need some inspiration, or it's a gray day, right, and you just don't feel it. What would be something you would tell that person that would encourage them? And I frame it as three tips. They can be practical or whatever you like. PB: I think I will give three mindset tricks because for us, it is more important the mind than the end. Especially in our work. First of all, have fun as you write in your book. If you don't have fun, you can do this kind of job, this kind of work is not your field. You have to think positively every time and try to play with yourself, especially when you listen and you have to synthesize in real-time. If you don't have fun, you can create nothing. The second thing is do what you know. We are professionals. A lot of clients for our point of view, but in general, for our experience, try to guide you but is not correct, is you have to guide the client because you are a specialist. We are specialists in this field, and is not to be super egocentric, but is true. If you want to have the best result from us, you have to trust us. And doing what, you know, is the only way to make yourself sure and be specified as a sure person, as a professional person. So the focus is, "I am good on that and I do that," and try to implement and grow up on what you love what is the obsession of your life. And the third thing I can say as a trick is to give thanks. As I mentioned before, we are super, super lucky. I had the possibility to meet super HR manager, super people manager, marketing manager of big brands. We have to steal from them and to report to our community. And doing this is giving thanks because we have this good possibility to have an impact. We have an impact during our scribing session because the responsibility is huge. We can evidence the difference or eliminate some difference. We have to be really responsible when we do scribe, but the same responsibility is to what we learn in the big companies is to pass to the community where we live. MR: Very cool. PB: Thank you. MR: Well, it's always good. I love this part of it. You may or may not know that at the end of the season, we gather all the tips together and we make them into an episode at the end. One of my favorite ones, one of many people's favorite shows, is those tips all merged together because you get 60 minutes or something of inspiration from all the guests. So it'll be exciting to include these in the session, in that episode. So thank you for sharing those with us. PB: Super. Super. Thank you for having me with you this afternoon in Italy. MR: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So the last thing that we can talk about is how do people find Yobi Scribes. Is there a website, social media? What's the best way to see your work? And then also to reach out to you? Which may be is the same thing. PB: Okay. I think the best social media to see our work is LinkedIn. MR: Really. Okay, cool. PB: Yes, we use a lot LinkedIn. Also to create relationships with our clients also to find new potential clients. But is the place where we publish more scribing, the more part of the job. If you want to see illustrations and other stuff, also like videos and promo of our company, Instagram, and it's @yobiscribes. But if you want to see scribes and works, LinkedIn is the best page because it is the one that we use more with post and creating pools. We use a lot of our LinkedIn page also because our bios are on LinkedIn. MR: Got it. PB: Our target is over there. MR: Yeah. It does make sense. It's interesting that you've mentioned that, that I've noticed probably in the last--I guess maybe starting with the pandemic, that there's a lot more visual thinkers on LinkedIn. And I was asking someone, a guest, a few seasons ago, who is a specialist in LinkedIn. I said, "Is it like a trend or is it just me and the algorithm is showing me what I want to see?" And she said, "No, it actually is a trend that there's visual thinkers that are going on LinkedIn and sharing their work because it's an interesting platform. Lots of engagement, a really different type of you know, potential clients or people there." So that's really a fascinating shift. Of course, you know, Instagram is natural, right? It's designed around visuals. Although Instagram is in a strange place where they don't know what they wanna be. The static picture is sort of getting overshadowed by the Reels and, you know, there's so much going on there, it's hard to know what the focus is. Whereas LinkedIn is where relatively stable and a lot of opportunities. So I think there's, you know, a visual aspect.. PB: Yeah. If I can give you a numeric data is from Instagram, we have the page from eight, nine years, we catch and collect three clients, From LinkedIn. In last year, five, six years that we have the LinkedIn page, company page, the 50 percent of our clients comes from LinkedIn. MR: Wow. Wow. And I suppose word of mouth, which is probably the best type of new clients acquisition is happening there. PB: The other 50 percent. MR: Yeah. But that probably supports it, right? Because someone says, "Oh, you need to work with Yobi Scribes, go look at their LinkedIn page." So now it becomes a reference, right? And then you can see who else did Yobi Scribes work with, then you have validation. PB: And also there is an empty space. In Italy, there are several companies that do scribes and this kind of thing. We are thinking also to implement our YouTube channel, because also over there especially in Italy, there's not a voice. There's not a company, a person that is doing this in a strong way. In Germany, there is Benjamin. But here that channel with tips and tricks--in Italy, there's not a social communication about scribes, about graphic facilitation, about sketch noting. So we are trying positioning ourself also in this social way. We love to work and to make job done and not to be posting and social media manager, but it's not possible to live in this era without posting on social media. MR: Yeah, that's true. And it seems to me like probably, you started to identify that each social media sort of has its benefits and also, it's often not the same audience. I've noticed that with the podcast. So the podcast has existed since 2016, the audio version. I think two years ago, I started experimenting with posting these recordings as videos on YouTube. And it's a completely different audience. So if you think of it that way, if you've got the capacity to do LinkedIn and Instagram and YouTube and whatever other platforms, you're actually diversifying in a lot of ways because the people that see you in one place don't necessarily see you in that other place. And so, it's actually expansion in that sense. PB: Yes. Also, you have to remain under an umbrella, but the tone of voice is also different. It's not only the target, but how you have to catch, engage, connect, attract this target is three levels of three different communication. MR: Yeah. You have to tailor to that. PB: We have hired a copywriter. MR: Smart move. PB: Yes. MR: Well, Pierpaulo, this has been really excellent. I've learned a lot from you. And of course, we'll reach out and get us links for all the things, all the places we can send people to. We like to do show notes with details. Thank you so much for the work you're doing in Italy. Thank you for being such a great person and seeking to find people to work with you and to represent our community in such a positive way. I'm so encouraged, and I just wanted to let you know, I appreciate you. Thank you. PB: Thank you, Mike. It was a super pleasure for me to be here with you. Hope to meet you in person as soon as possible. MR: Yeah. I think I need to do an Italian trip. Of course, my wife will kill me if I don't bring her along. So maybe we bring the whole family. That would be fun. So when that happens, we'll of course, let you guys know. PB: And you'll be our guest in Bologna. MR: Oh, that would be great. PB: You can come in our studio. MR: Maybe we need an Italian tour all the way from Milan down. So, we'll see. PB: Yeah. I have to be your fifth runner. MR: Sounds good. Well, for anyone who's-- PB: Good luck with that. MR: Thank you. And for everybody who's watching or listening, it's another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Until the next episode, talk to you soon. Ciao. PB: Ciao.

In this episode, Alina Gutierrez reflects on her childhood passion for art, her work as a banker, and how her banking experience led to her career in graphic facilitation. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Alina Gutierrez Origin Story Alina's current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Alina Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Alina's Website Alina on Instragram Alina on Facebook Online Course - Let me Draw What I Mean Unflattening By Nick Sousanis Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Crayola Markers Sharpie Markers Neuland Markers Uni Posca Paint Markers DeSerres Marker Pens Neuland GraphicWally DeSerres Thick Plain Paper Tips Push yourself to try something new so it doesn't become boring. The more people are engaged with creating the visuals, the more impact it has on them. Give yourself grace if you are starting. Don't compare yourself with those who started way before you did. Give yourself realistic goals. Listen to a TED Talk or a podcast to try taking live notes. Challenge yourself to add new icons as you progress. Look for something you're not an expert in and take visual notes of that. Leave your comfort zone and get exposed to different tools. Find inspiration from other artist's work. Just do the first line, even if it means signing your piece before you get started. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everybody, it's Mike, and I'm here with Alina Gutierrez from Visual Versa. Alina, it's so good to have you. Thanks for being on the show. Alina Gutierrez: Thank you. I'm super excited to be here. MR: Yeah, me too. You were a recommendation from my friend Alejo Porras, who has been on the show in the past, and he's coming back again this season because so much has changed in his world, but he highly recommended you, and I'm always looking for new, interesting people, and you fit that perfectly. So why don't you tell us a little about who you are and what you do? AG: Perfect. Thank you. That's such a simple question, yet complex answer. MR: Sure. AG: So who am I? I am a mom, wife, friend, lots of roles. I like starting with that because I think beyond whatever we do, we're all humans and have a personal life outside what we do. I have two little boys, seven and eight. I'm originally from Columbia, but I've been in Canada, oof. I lost count, I think since 2007, around those dates. I am the founder of Visual Versa. I've been working for a little bit over 10 years, bringing color and visual notes to organizations. Well, there's a little bit of everything because I have a background all over the place. I think through Visual Versa, I found a way to merge all those passion and all that experience that I've had gained. I don't know if I answer. MR: It sounds like you're kind of a generalist, I would say. You have lots of skills and you find ways to weave them together. Maybe that's a way to say it, I guess. AG: I love that. Yes. MR: Yeah, there you go. You can steal that if you want to. AG: I like it. Thank you. I'll be stealing it. Yeah. MR: Well, you hinted at it, but I'm really curious, I'm always curious for every guest, but especially in this case with you, how you ended up in this place. It sounds like you had lots of interests and lots of things happening, and yet you found this way to weave them together or find a place to weave them together. I suspect there were things you did in the past where you couldn't do the other things. Like you had to focus on one thing and maybe you're frustrated, or. Tell us that story, go all the way back to even when you were a little girl. Were there things that you did as a little girl that you see now the thread tying you to the present? AG: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I was actually having a conversation with my parents not too long ago, and they were like, "We're not surprised you're doing what you're doing right now." I used to paint everywhere. I was the one who did a mural in my room and painted my jackets and painted on my backpack, whatever. You name it, I have painted on it. I was blessed enough to have a family that allowed me to do that. But I also had, I would say, this duality between that rational side of me and the artistic side, I think a lot of it came from my background. You know, back home, the opportunities or the amounts of jobs available were not as many back then. Right now, I think there's a lot of stuff going on, and there's actually a lot of people doing sketch notes back home and really good people. But I felt that I had to go for a more secure career. When it came to the time where I had to design what, I wanted to do, I went into a program called design Engineering. It had that design aspect of it, the creativity, but it had the engineering title that kind of had that recognition. So social recognition. Back in high school, I was the one who painted doors for every single party or whatever we were celebrating. I was part of a musical actually in my hometown. I used to sing and act. Then I got to university, and despite the design part of the program, there was a lot of calculus and physics and all that kind of stuff. I've been kind of a perfectionist my whole life so I wanted to excel, but I had to put a lot effort into it. I realized by now, but then looking back, it's like sometimes when you have to push that more effort, things do not come natural to you maybe that's not your place. It doesn't mean that you cannot do it. If you put yourself to it, you can. But, you know, all the creative part of it used to come so natural to me. Then there was this opportunity to do exchange program in Quebec. So I applied to university and the way it worked, it was a agreement between governments, so I could come here and do a semester or a year of my program and some students would go there. I had to pay for my expenses, but I didn't have to pay for the university. I applied to Concordia University. I got accepted. Then when I got my acceptance letter, they said, "The only thing is we don't have the same program here, so you have to either go into fine arts or the engineering department." I was like, "Ta-da." I was so excited. Scared but excited. So I said, "I wanna go into fine arts." And you know, that self-doubt of like, "Oh, maybe I don't have what it takes because these people that are doing all plain arts and I haven't done that much." But I submitted my portfolio, got accepted and came to Montreal. After I got here, I kept extending my stay, extending, extending. I was like, "Oh, I like it. I'm gonna finish my program and then go back home." Then I graduated. In Canada, when you graduate as an international student, they give you a work permit. And I was like, "No, I need to get work experience here and then go back home with that in my CV." Long story short, I ended up staying. I met someone and it's been way too long and I'm still here. I'm getting to your question. MR: Oh, this is all part of the question. You're doing excellent. Keep going. AG: Okay. I then graduated and I had to find a job because part of the rule is they give you a work permit, then you have to find a job within a timeline. I found a job. It was hard for me to find a job because you had to speak English and French for most job openings, and I didn't speak French back then. I found something, I was not too happy then found a job at a bank, you figure. They hire me. They were like, "We don't care, you don't have that background. We'll train you in the background, but you like dealing with people, you're good at customer service, you're good." I worked at a bank for three years and it got to the day where my boss was like, "Okay, we need to do something about your background so you can keep advancing at the bank. I need you to go back to school and do a program in business or HR, whatever it is but it's a little bit more aligned with the bank than fine arts." And I was like, "Sure. Fair enough." I went back to school and I couldn't keep up with classes, I couldn't keep up with my notes. I started doing a program in organizational psychology or change management type of thing. It was really text heavy, the things were complicated. And then I started getting sketchbooks instead of the traditional lined book and I would do mind maps. I would get stuck like, "I dunno how to write that word." Then every time that I didn't know how to write that word, I would doodle it and keep going. MR: Ah, okay. AG: Then during my second year one prof came to me and she was like, "Alina, do you do graphic facilitation?" And I was like, "Wait, I do, what is that?" MR: What's that? AG: "What is that?" She said, "Graphic facilitation." And I'm like, "Well, it has the word graphic in it, so it sounds cool, but I have no idea what that is." She was like, "Okay, you should look into it." I was like, "Sure." And I remember that night, like it was yesterday, I came home and I googled "graphic facilitation." Then I started looking at people doing these big drawings in front of people, And I was like, "People get paid to do that? That is such a cool job. that's what I wanna do." Then I started looking into courses, you know, that academic side of me, I have to get trained. I have to get something so I can start. I took a two-day course here in Montreal of graphic facilitation. Then, you know, my classmates and the profs started seeing what I was doing, and they were like, "Why don't you come in front of the class and take notes?" The professor would explain something, I would like doodle and then at the end of the class, people would take pictures. And I was like, there's something in here. Initially, I thought it was like, oh, this is something that helps me because I'm studying my second language. I'm doing a program in a second language. But then I realized that even people from here who were studying their native tongue were like, "That's really cool. Can I take pictures of your notes to study for the papers or to write the papers? And I was like, "Cool. Yeah, take pictures." Then the university was doing events and I started volunteering myself, and I would do it in exchange for material. I was like, "Hey, I need to get these markers that are super expensive. Can you buy three or four of those markers and then I'll take visual notes at your event." And they were like, "Sure." Or, "Can you get me paper and whatever." Then I started getting exposure and practice 'cause now I look at the first visual notes that I took, and I'm like, "I can't believe someone let me do that." MR: Same for me too. When I look back at the first sketch and I was like, "What was I thinking?" AG: What was I thinking? And I'm like how come I was not even shy to go in front of people and do that, but I'm grateful. I'm really grateful because that's the way it started. Then I realized there was a career in it, and because my background is in workshop design and facilitation and strategic sessions, then I do that as well, but I bring that creative aspect. So it doesn't matter what type of workshop I'm designing, it doesn't matter what type of a strategic session or whatever I'm doing, there's always doodles or images or visual metaphors or whatever it is involved in the planning and delivery of these workshops. I always bring that aspect into my work. MR: Interesting. Well, it's interesting because you say that you're doing this now, but you were going to school for change management. Was there a shift somewhere that you made a change? Because obviously, you were now excited about this graphic facilitation you discovered, but you obviously were not going in that direction. So how did you manage that with the bank? That sounds like a whole story in itself, huh? AG: Yes. That could be another episode, but let me try to make it short. Okay, I'm bad at answering short. I always go on and tell a long story. Long story short, I gave myself a deadline. I had a year left to finish my program. I asked for a leave at the bank and I said, "Okay, I have what it takes for me to leave for a year and see what happens. So if from now in a year I see I can make this my full-time job, I'll quit the bank and if I can't, then I'll go back." You know, no harm. I gave it a try at least, right. I gave myself year, and by the end of the year, I had enough to be able to take the risk and then I quit the bank and started doing this full time. MR: Pretty smart way to approach it. AG: I always have like, yeah, I need to—I go with the flow, I adapt, but at the same time, I always need like my plan A, B, and C because I know things don't always work the way we want it, but yeah. MR: So then you proved that you could do it for a year, that it was something you could survive with. I assume then that that's probably when you started doing this other schooling or education, it sounds like, for what you were talking about around facilitation and meeting plan—or I guess I'll let you describe it because I don't know exactly what that focus was. AG: That's fine. That was actually part of the program I was doing when I discovered visual notes. MR: Ah, okay. AG: Yeah, it's a program where we talked a lot about creating containers for people, facilitating spaces so people can have the conversation. I'm not the expert in whatever topic they're gonna talk about, which I think is pretty aligned with graphic facilitation. Sometimes I'm taking visual notes for the pharmaceutical or a non-for-profit, you know, organization. And they're like, "Oh, so you just work with these types of organizations?" I'm like, "No." "So how do you understand what we're talking about?" I'm like, "I don't really understand the whole—I don't understand every little detail, but I understand what you're talking about. I mean, there's always the option of putting a post-it on with a word that I didn't understand and going and asking people, but we don't need to be the experts in their topic. I actually think it gives a nice, fresh perspective because from an outsider perspective, we get to ask different questions. And with facilitation is like that. So it was part of the program. MR: Cool. AG: I was doing it with the goal in mind of going back to the bank and hopefully going into HR, because I loved training and development. And then, you know, I ended up doing training and development, but on my own. MR: In a different way. Yeah. Interesting. AG: Yeah, and— MR: One question about when you did that one year, was there one client or project that made you say, "Okay, I can do this?" Was it that, or was it more like, there were a lot of clients that said, "Okay, I think I can make this work." How that go in that year between? AG: Yes, it was more about multiple clients than one client, but it was also the idea of—I started seeing the ripple effect that you could create. It was something innovative enough or different enough for me to most of the time leave each event with at least one potential client. At least. I would say at least, because most of the time you leave with like two or three referrals and sometimes even down the line, you get more especially in conferences where you get people from different organizations. So it's not the same if I do any strategic planning where it's like an internal group. Yes, I might get referrals to other departments, but I don't get as much triple effect on when I go into a conference of like, I don't know, real estate agents or you know, a conference on non-for-profit organizations that are working mental health. But in one meeting or in one conference, I might get access to 60 different organizations or more. That's where I started seeing, okay, you know, this is creating a pipeline good enough for me to see the potential and take a risk and give it a try. MR: Cool. So then now we'll pick up again. You've done the year, you've decided that this is the way you're gonna go, you quit the bank, so what happens next? AG: It's really scary. MR: I would guess so, yeah. AG: Yeah. Then you quit the bank and, you know, it was really comfortable to get a paycheck every two weeks. Then I realized that, you know, there's months where I was making three or four times what I was making at the bank, and then months where I was making $0. It gets way better as the years move. There's also a cycle throughout the year and you learn to deal with it. So I know most of the time, January is a quiet month, but then I take that month to reach out to clients, do a lot of admin work, prepare things. I have now my online aspect to my business so I have like an online course and an eBook and all that kind of stuff. So I know that during January I can take that time without the anxiety of nothing is coming. It's normal that nothing is coming. I kind of started seeing the cycle, but what happened once with the bank was, I started reaching to people, reaching out to people I knew or looking for events in the city and reaching out to the events, being like, "This is what I do." The difference is that right now, I would say, one out of two people, I tell them, I take visual notes and they're like, "That's really cool." And the other person would be like, "You do what?" But back then, two out of two people were like, "You do what?" So it was really hard to explain. And I found myself in that reality that it was like, okay, it was really easy for me to get referrals out of an event where people saw what I did. And It was not as easy to reach out to people and be like, "Look, this is what I do and these are the benefits." Obviously, it's way easier for me 10 years later to explain the benefits than back then. So I got into a rollercoaster. It had its ups and downs and, you know, moments where I was like, "What am I doing? I'm gonna look for a full-time job again." Then other moments where I was like, "This is amazing." You know. I think I learned a little bit to deal with that rollercoaster and appreciate the highs and be prepared for the lows because as an entrepreneur, that always happens. MR: Yeah. I don't know your language skills in French, but I think one advantage you hold is you understa`11nd Spanish English. And I assume by now some degree of French, I don't know how much. That could be really valuable in that environment and Quebec especially, right. Because there's probably multiple languages probably being spoken and that would set you apart, I suspect. AG: Absolutely. Yes. I mean, it's also shown me a different part that I didn't realize at the beginning, but a different part of this amazing tool. It's how we can make information accessible even during an event, especially in Quebec, a reality is most events have to deal with actual duality, the bilingualism. And there's not always a translator right there. Sometimes people are presenting in English and switch to French. I've done it where if the person is presenting in English, I take visual notes in French, and if they're presenting in French, I take visual notes in English. MR: Interesting. I had people come and see me at the end and be like every time I didn't understand what was going going on, I would turn and look at your notes and be like, "Oh, okay, they're talking about this." They might not get the full detailed thing, but at least they had an idea of what was going on. Every time they got lost, they could look at the notes and be like, "Oh, okay, this is where we're going." So it's been a nice experience. Obviously being me, I was like, there's something in there. So let's add another layer to my story. I started my PhD, about some years ago, longer than I would like to say because it's taken way too long, but I was like, you know what? There's a lot of people saying, look, this works and this is what it is. And because of my personal experience, but there's not a lot of research behind it. There is some, but not as much. And I was like, I wanna start getting into that. Into how we can make communication more accessible. How we could use these types of tools to work. 'Cause the reality nowadays is that in most teams, you have someone like me who's working in their second or third language. And even if we have a good level of understanding and speaking, sometimes it—well, even when we're speaking our mother tongue, we have misunderstandings. Communication is hard. And adding this thing where like, I could doodle as I'm explaining things and we can have a conversation and make sure that literally we're on the same page, and we're like, "Oh, no, this is not what I had in mind." Or like, "Oh, what about if we move this line here?" We don't go on and each work on our projects and realize we were on different pages and didn't realize it. So I was like I wanna look into that. So, yeah, I started doing a PhD and I'm researching the effect of using visual tools to facilitate change in organizations and communities. MR: Wow. That's really cool. When you finish the PhD, do you have plans to include, I assume, imagery to convey and communicate your points? AG: Yes. That's the idea. I mean writing papers in English is not easy at all for me. I am lucky enough to have a committee that they're super open to innovative ideas. I think thanks to that I've been able to get to the point where I'm at. I should have been finished by now, but in between, you know, starting the PhD and now I had my second baby and there was COVID and there's been all kinds of stuff that we don't plan for it. So it's been taking way longer, but it's still something that informs my practice and my practice informs my research. And I like that way of being able to bring things from one side to the other. It's also giving me tools to teach because I love teaching, but I don't have a background in teaching.Facilitation and teaching, I think they have tools they share and principles they share. But it is giving me a little bit of tools and resources for me to do a better job when I'm trying to teach this tool to others. MR: Well, there's two thoughts around that. One is for English speakers, writing papers and PhDs is not easy in English. So, I mean, you don't feel too bad about that. It's tough all around, right. But I'm sure there's probably challenges you face that may be a native English speaker might not. The second thing I was gonna mention is a book my friend Nick Sousanis wrote, he was on the show many, many seasons ago, and it's a book called Unflattening. You can look that up. And anybody who's listening look up Unflattening. It is a graphic novel that he submitted as his PhD paper explaining why graphic novels are a superior form of communication for idea. AG: Awesome. MR: My thought is— AG: I'm not only gonna look at the book, I'm gonna reach out. MR: Yeah. I can make that connection with you, if you like and talk to Nick. I think it would be really interesting for you to see, even if you just see photos of it, but you could certainly order a copy of it and see how he did it. AG: I'll absolutely do that. MR: Right. Because that might inspire you when you submit your PhD, maybe you can bring to your committee like, "Hey, I wanna make it, maybe not to this degree." 'Cause the whole thing is a comic book, right? His focus is on graphic novels and comics as a communication device. So very possibly you could, you know, take ideas from it but make your PhD paper much more visual than maybe anybody would expect, and that could advantage you know, what you're trying to do. AG: And that's the idea. I mean, I don't wanna do—and I tend to fall into that trap sometimes that if I'm talking about visuals, I don't wanna have something really text heavy. I know it's academic and I still have to have that research part, but a big part of it, I think can be visual. I've had that conversation with my supervisor, and now when you asked me about my story, I forgot, and it's actually during high school, there was a way that I got out of a paper, a philosophy paper saying I wanted to do visuals to represent that. And I negotiated with the teacher, and I ended up giving him a booklet with drawings instead of doing a paper and actually one exam. I did the same through my master's program with the prof that is now my supervisor, where I was like, "I'm so tired of writing papers. It takes so much energy." And I think I spent like double the time doing this booklet, but I had so much fun and add to today, years later, I could still talk to the topic, which doesn't happen with the tons of paper I wrote, the part. MR: Yeah. Yeah. It's so cool. AG: So that's the idea. I don't know how far they'll let me go with it, but I'm like, "Yes, my thesis is gonna be image heavy, not text heavy." MR: Sounds like you're a negotiator already. So you'll probably find a way to negotiate something, right? AG: Yes. MR: And, you know, find a way to make everybody happy. But yeah, that's really interesting. And so now you're doing this full time, it sounds like it can be a rollercoaster at times, which being independent can often be. Tell me about a project that you're working on or maybe something you just finished that you can share that got you excited that you can tell us about, and then we can see like, okay, here's how all the things that you're interested in fit together in a project. AG: I actually just finished working with a client and I worked with them for several years. The name of the organization is One Drop. If you haven't heard about it, go and look it up. It's an amazing organization. It was created by Guy Laliberte'. He's the same founder of Cirque du Soleil. So it is a non-for-profit. They work in different countries. They work in India, south America, here up north, in Africa. Anyways, they have tons of projects. Most of the projects that I was working with them were the ones in Latin America. So it's a project called Lazos de Agua , and they bring clean water to underprivileged communities. But then what they realized obviously is—this was founded by Guy Laliberte, it had to have that creative side of it. They were like, "A lot of times we spent tons of money in the infrastructure of these projects, we bring clean water to the communities, and then it happens that people are not using it because sometimes they have to walk." It's still a distance to do it, but it's because there's a behavior change included, right? If you were used to walking to the river, meeting all people from the community, grabbing water there, or washing your clothes, it's not the same. There is a component of these projects that is behavior change. You have to create that awareness in the community. So they used an approach that is called Social Art for behavior change, where they use art to work with the communities as, you know, a parallel approach. While there's people working in the infrastructure, there is this amazing team of people working with the communities in behavior change, and they work with people from the community. So it's initiatives and art that comes from the community. They use actually local art to do different things. I work with them in—it was so nice because I found one organization where I could actually use all my skills. Sometimes I would facilitate sessions, sometimes I design interventions, sometimes I was designing visual tools that they would use when they would go and meet with the community. I actually helped them design and facilitate a big event that happened to celebrate the anniversary of the program in Mexico last year. It was an organization with which I could use all my facets and experiences. They also work in English, French, and Spanish. When I got there, I was like, "Oh my goodness, this place was created for me." It was so good. I could be part of different projects and take different hats. I realized, with them, it was the first time that I actually started using visual tools and visual notes as a tool for behavior change. And that part, I had not experienced that before. And it got me into another road where I started learning a lot on how to do it and how to involve with the community. It's not like they go and they have an intervention and it's ready and it's done. They go, they work with the community, they get people from the community to facilitate, to co-design, to co-create. Everything is done together. It was such an amazing experience throughout. I learned a lot. MR: Well, that's pretty cool because then I would imagine if the people who co-create, it's more likely they will adopt. So if it's their choice or they have a hand in, "Hey, we're not going to the river anymore, we're going to the well, right?" They would say, "Well, what things do we do with the river? Well, we wash our clothes, we probably chat, we gossip. So how do we relocate that stuff to another place?" And I'm sure you've facilitated all that kind of change with them. That's pretty cool. That sounds really like a fun project. AG: The tons of projects throughout the pandemic also working with the handwashing behavior and soap and they even went the extra mile on like, "Okay, we're gonna create the capacity within the community." There are communities that didn't have access to local soap, you know, they would have. So, okay, let's you know, inject some capital in the community so someone could start a business and do soap and sell soap." You know, so it's like this whole chain we're thinking about the different components and kind of addressing them. Yeah, it was such a cool experience to have and to see how we're using a tool to create meaningful change. MR: That sounds really great. Thanks for sharing that project. AG: My pleasure. MR: Well, so let's shift now to tools. We're always curious here on the show, what kind of tools you like. I don't know if you use digital, but we typically do analog tools, and then digital tools, mainly because everybody says iPad Pro, pencil, and Procreate, which is incredibly boring. And there's often so many fun, you know, pens and markers and paints and things that people use that maybe are unexpected. So I would love to hear, like, when you do your graphic facilitation or anything, where you use regularly. Tell us about the kind of tools you use and then you can do the digital stuff at the end if you like. AG: Yeah. The digital stuff. I'm gonna be boring. MR: Like most people. AG: Let's go into the analog. Look, I'm all over the place and I like saying this because obviously I love Neuland. I love the fact that you can refill the markers. I love everything about that brand. I have their board, and I love them. But they're an investment. It's something that I did once I was into this for a while and I could do that investment, but I literally use Crayola markers with in my workshop side, right? I tell people, "You can get started with that." I got started with Ome DeSerres, it's like a local art store here. They have their home brand. They're super affordable and they're amazing markers. The only thing is that I realized every three months I needed to buy new markers, which it hasn't happened to me since I got Neuland. I can't even say the name. I should know. So I'm all over the place. I use Crayola, I use Sharpie, I use local brands, well, for my workshops, and when it's me taking my visual notes, I use Neuland. MR: Okay. Got it. Are you someone who experiments? Do you go to the art store and like, "Ooh, that would be interesting to try," and you pick things up or you like that? AG: Yes. MR: Okay. That's me too. AG: I love that. And I love finding clients who are upto, you know. So like I started using postcard or I don't know, acrylic markers not too long ago. I got them and they have amazing colors, like really bright colors. I Told the client, I'm like, you know, "It's gonna be different. Is it okay if I give it a try?" "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give it a try." I think it's one of the most colorful graphic recordings I've done. I loved it. I try even with acrylic when it's something that is like a long event or when I could prepare some graphics ahead of time. I've done, if I prepare things, because sometimes I come with posters that are already illustrated for people to fill in with the ideas. And then in there I've tried everything. Ink you know, acrylics, you name it. Pastels. I use pastels a lot too especially with people that are starting when I'm teaching them, I show them things they can do with pastels that is not complicated, doesn't take a lot of time, but it brings a little bit of a colorful effect to your graphics. So they look like you did it really fast, but it's just because it's easy to just spread the pastel around and give a little bit of shadow or highlight to whatever you're drawing. MR: Interesting. It's interesting that going back to when you were a little girl and you painted everything, that you found a way to incorporate Pastel markers and paint markers into that process. So it's sort of its full circle, right? In some way. AG: Absolutely. It might sound weird, but I love getting my hands dirty. At the end of a job when my hands are full of colors, it gives me this sense of like, "Oh, you did something really cool today." It's like that. I think like it connects with that, you know inner child of like I was able to get dirty and do colorful stuff, and it's always fun. MR: You're really in there, right? You're in there doing it. Your hands are dirty. AG: Yeah. MR: I think that— AG: Yeah, exactly. Like barely. MR: What about paper and notebooks and those kind of things? Sounds like you like large scale, but do you work with any notebooks? Do you do any personal stuff in notebooks or sheets of paper, anything like that you can share? AG: I do, yes. I have all kinds of sketchbooks. I have them all. I have yours. I love it. For me, it's more about having thick paper that I know I can—I don't know, somehow it bothers me if I draw with a marker and then you can see it on the other side because it's like then I cannot use both sides of the paper. MR: Yeah. Yeah. AG: So I love thick, good quality paper when it comes to taking visual notes. But even for my day-to-Day stuf, I have my own notebooks. Visual Versa, has a line of notebooks. MR: Nice. AG: Even for the day-to-day things, obviously they have good quality paper because I'm all about that, but they're not as thick. But I'm using Neuland fine one. Even if I have a meeting with a client or whatever, I'm always taking notes and my notes are never linear. I can't go back. MR: Yeah. AG: I guess I'm not being super helpful because I use anything that has no lines. MR: Okay. So clean paper. AG: Yeah. MR: Thick paper. Clean and thick. AG: Yes. Absolutely. MR: Now, what about your large scale, do you have a supplier of large scale thick paper that you like to use that you can stick on a wall and, you know, the markers aren't gonna bleed through to the back? AG: Oh, yeah. That was a good experience to get because, you know, before I had my own board that I could bring everywhere, there was that struggle of like, "Are you sure that, you know, the markers are not gonna go to the wall." Then I used double paper and it's such a waste of paper until I found, but it's a local store that sells roll of paper. I'm always scared they're gonna stop selling them. So I always buy like five rolls or 10 rolls in advance just in case because it was not easy to find one. I have my rolls there to make sure that if, you know, one day they tell me we don't sell them anymore because I'm pretty sure not a lot of people buy those papers, I'm like, well, "At least I'll have a little bit of time, a cushion there to find another provider that is good. They're called Omer DeSerres. It's a local, it is the same that I mentioned for the markers. They have their markers as well. MR: Yeah. We'll have to have you send some links so if someone's in Quebec or in Canada, they can get access. AG: Absolutely. Yeah. MR: I suppose they might sell internationally to the U.S., but then you'll really pay for it in shipping, I suspect, or VAT or something like that. AG: Yeah. But I mean, for the paper, it might be worth it. It is really good quality paper and I've looked around always to have a plan B. I always have like having the plan B, but I haven't found something as good on, you know, price quality. You know because it's not extremely expensive for the quality they have. MR: Do you have a standard size and you cut it and then you bring rolls and then stick 'em on the wall? Or do you have a board that you mount those to? How does that part of it work for you? AG: Yeah, so I have the modular board. Depending on how long the event is, sometimes I use my four modules, which is like pretty big. And sometimes I just use two. So I use two or three or four. Most of the time, I—no, I think I've never used one. For a half day event, normally I would use just two panels, and then full day, depending on how packed the schedule is, I use three or four panels. I always bring my roll with me and, you know, cut depending on— MR: What you need. AG: - on what I need. Exactly. Yeah. MR: Is that the Neuland graphic wall? Is that what it's called? AG: Yes. MR: I know there's two products, and I hadn't realized this, so I talked to somebody else. So the graphic wall is for this like graphic recorders large scale, but there's a smaller scale thing called GraphicWally, which is like a little brother, right? AG: Wally, exactly. MR: It's got a roll of paper and you bring it across and you can do the same thing, but on a small scale. And I think they even probably imagine like you would put a camera on it, right. So if you're working remotely, you could show it this way, right? AG: Yeah. MR: Interesting. AG: I don't have the GraphicWally. That's on my wishlist. MR: Yeah. Yeah. AG: But the wall, yes. And I've had it for nine years now, and it's still working great. And it's light because, you know moving the stuff that size could be really hard. And it's not hard at all. And it avoids the problem. A lot of times I would get to a building and they were like, "Oh no, this building, we don't allow anything on the wall." Then, you know, you had the struggle of, it doesn't matter how many times you ask the clients, they're like, "Yeah, yeah, no problem." Then you get there, "No, you can't." I actually did one a whole day of visual notes on the floor. MR: Oh man. AG: Which was a really interesting experience, but, you know— MR: Kind of crawling around. AG: - kind of like going back to your childhood, it's like you're doing things. At the end, I embraced it and I made people step on different icons depending on what it was. It ended up being a really cool experience. And I actually have a picture of it that I use on my website because it seems like a really—well, it was a really creative moment. MR: Yeah. AG: People were literally stepping on the words and the things to vote for things. It was cool, but at the moment it was like, "Oh my goodness, what am I gonna do? You know, I'm already here, I have my materials, we're about to start, you know, let's figure something out." Now I don't have to go through that. I have my board. MR: And you have your wall. Yeah. AG: Yeah. And it's flexible enough that if the space is not big, sometimes what I do, even if it's a full day event, I just use two panels and then sometimes have two posters. So one for the morning and one for the afternoon. MR: I see. AG: Yeah. MR: Smart, smart. Cool. That's really good. We'll make sure we get links to all these products that we can find with Alina and me. AG: Absolutely. MR: I'm sure we can do that. And Esther who does our show notes, loves to dig for this stuff. So we'll get that in the show notes for you. Let's shift now to tips. So the way I like to frame it for guests is imagine someone's listening, they're a visual thinker of some kind, but maybe they've reached a plateau or they just need a little inspiration or a pick me up. What would be three things you would tell them to encourage them in their practice to keep on going and to keep striving? AG: So the first thing that I always tell people is, and I think it applies to everything, but it applies to visual notes, is it doesn't matter in which part of this process you are, push yourself a little bit to try something new so it doesn't become boring. There's always that thing of like, if you're—I tell people if you're scar it's because you care. But it's also like, if you're not scared, if you feel so confident, it's like you're not pushing yourself enough. In my case for example, it's like trying new medium or you know, pushing myself to try new icons, try new ways to engage with the audience. So, you know, like in whatever facet this comes, like if you're a really experienced graphic facilitator, then I will invite you to put yourself to find different ways to engage with the audience. Because I found throughout the years that the more people are engaged with the creation of the visual, the more impact it has with the group. It's not the same thing when I'm that silent partner in the corner that people just see at the end and they're like, "Oh, wow, really cool." And that's it. Let's, you know, move past that. Then when they're part of this co-creation, they're actually feeding you ideas. And then at the end, they see their ideas with illustrations and they're like, "Oh, I just said that. Look there's a drawing of what I said?" And they get super excited and there's way more by eating. I actually just visit a client who I did in a strategic session for eight years ago, and they had my poster on the wall. And I was like, "Wow." And she's like, it's so amazing because this poster happened when the initiative didn't exist. They were brainstorming about it. Now, they're a full department, and they take grants and they help students with innovation projects. And they're like, "That was our first session when we dream about, like, it was our dream that all this stuff would happen." And now it's happening. MR: Now it's real. Yeah. AG: And they still have that poster there. MR: Wow. AG: But they were engaged throughout the session, right? Like, they were coming to me, they were giving post-Its, they were like saying—so, you know, engage people. If you're starting, then pushing yourself might mean, you know, well, you haven't tried taking live notes. And I think that's a scary step for anyone, is one thing, is taking notes for yourself, doing summaries or whatever. But, you know, no one is gonna look, like to see them, or also you don't have that time pressure. When it comes to taking live notes, I think there's always that—you know, it's a big leap. But I would say, you know, they don't—well, first don't compare yourself with someone who's been doing it for 10 years. If I would've compared myself when I started with someone who was doing it 10 years, and I would've stopped because of that, I would not be doing what I'm doing right now. MR: Right. Right. AG: I knew what I could do and I was transparent with my clients, and I would say as far as you're using arrows and speech bubbles, you're already being more visual than most people. So I would say, you know, like, give yourself realistic goals. They're a little bit stretched, but they're not too far out so you're paralyzed and you don't do anything. If you're not taking the live notes yet, then I tell people, you know, listen to a TED talk or listen to a podcast and take notes. And then you tell yourself, "This time I'm gonna have one icon." When it gets to the point that having just one icon in your notes is too easy, then you have two icons per podcast, then three, then four. You know, it could be just an icon for the title, and the rest is a mind map with no more visuals, but you're already doing something more visual than you were doing before. So it's just taking those baby steps, but keep pushing it to the next level. That was like seven tips in one MR: Well, Esther will have fun finding those tips and putting 'em in. So we'll make sure we capture those and number them for you. Everybody, and they'll also appear, of course, in our end of the season, All The Tips episode, so you can hear this all again with everybody else. So thank you for those steps. AG: I'm so excited for the end of the season tips to see. MR: A lot of people say that's their favorite episode. Yeah, it's a great one. I enjoy doing that. AG: Is it okay if I add another tip to the— MR: Go for it? Go for it. AG: Okay. I would say try doing something or taking visual notes or whatever it is from something you've never experienced before. Let me explain that. Let's say you're in the tech industry, you know, try to do that, listening to someone talking about design—no, design thinking is good in the tech industry. Someone talking about, you know, human systems or facilitation or, you know, even medical innovation, whatever it is. Just look for something that you're not an expert in and take visual notes of that. I love it because sometimes it is like, we're already comfortable—we're comfortable enough doing visual notes of whatever we know best, but it also—well, I would say it gives you the exposure to learn something new, which is always good for creativity. It's been proven again and again. It also shows you how much you don't have to be an expert of something to be able to take these visual notes. So even going back to that person who's scared of taking live visual notes, doing that might help you build your confidence a little bit in the sense that, you know, you don't have to be an expert. You'll understand enough for you to be able to do a visual summary. And it's also because I think the more things and the more fields that we're exposed to, the more we start seeing how we can transfer one thing to a to another. I think it's a good practice, and it's something that I push myself to do when I'm getting really comfortable in somewhere. So it goes back to living your comfort zone. But the being exposed, getting yourself exposed to different things and different tools and looking for inspiration. People are like, "Oh, I don't wanna copy anyone." You're not gonna copy. Even if you try, you can't do exactly the same thing. Your style is different. But every time that I'm like, I feel I've been doing—I don't know, there's three or four posters that they look too similar, I start looking for other people in the field that are doing visual notes and see what they do that I'm not doing. So like, oh, maybe I'm always putting the title up, you know. My comfort zone is putting title top center. And it's like, "Okay, you know what? Next time I'm gonna do title in the middle." And it's uncomfortable. And I get like, "Oh, like, ooh." You know, the first line is always the hardest. But try to do something that you haven't done before. That sometimes helps with the blockage in whatever sense that you're doing it, or just doing the first line. Sometimes I sign my poster before I start. MR: Keeps it fresh. AG: A blank paper is intimidating. MR: Yeah. AG: A blank piece of paper is really scary. And when I feel like stakes are high, sometimes I start staring at this and I'm like, "Why am I doing this again?" I get really nervous every single time before I start taking visual notes. And if I see that that nervousness is going to the next level, I'm like, you know what? I know doing that first line is the hardest. Once I get into it, I'm in my zone and I'm having fun. So even if that means signing your piece before I get it started, sign it. It's not blank anymore. MR: Yep. You're committed. AG: It's kind of like giving—yeah, you're committed. You're already started. Just jump and keep going. MR: Those are great tips. Thank you, Alina. It's helpful to hear your perspective and more good inspiration for people who are doing this work to encourage them. So thank you. AG: My pleasure. MR: Let's talk now a little bit how we can find you. Your company is Visual Versa. What's the website we should go to? Are there social media that you hang out in? Any other projects that you wanna share here? We'll make sure again, that these get in the show notes, so if you're listening, you find the links. AG: Absolutely. So visualversa.com is my website and then you can find me a—well, Instagram is the social media that I use the most. I also have Facebook, but it's more because I think I have to have it, but I don't go there often. So if you're gonna send me a message, definitely use Instagram and it's @visualversa. And I also have my online offerings or my online course, it's called, Let me Draw What I Mean. Going back to that idea of, you know, I wanna teach people how to use these to explain their ideas and make their ideas more accessible to others. So Let me Draw What I Mean is more like the online side of it, but for events or organizations is Visual Versa. MR: Okay. Got it. One is the educational arm and the other is the business are my guess. AG: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Let me Draw What I Mean was born during the pandemic where we all had to reinvent ourselves. MR: Yeah. AG: And I realized how much I enjoyed it, and I kept it. And then Visual Versa was what got me started. MR: Got it. Cool. We'll link those up for you. If you're in listening here, you can go to the show notes and find those links in the episode or on the website. Well, thank you, Alina. This has been really fun to talk with you. Thank you so much for the work you're doing. I so appreciate your positive influence in the world and fighting through challenges, coming from one country to another, changing jobs, learning multiple languages, and yet flourishing and making these things into who you are. I'm just so proud of you, and I wanted to let you know that. Thank you. AG: Wow. Mike, that means so much coming from you. I think your book is the first book I got when I got into visual notes. I still have it. And, you know, like, just being here for me is such an honor because I've been following you for years and I've been inspired with the work you do. So it means a lot to me to be able to be here in this space having a conversation with you. So, thank you. MR: Well, you've definitely deserved it. I'm excited and I'm excited to see what you'll do going forward. So thank you. Thank you for sharing your time with us. AG: Thank you so much. MR: All right, everyone, well, that's another episode of the Sketchnote Army podcast. For those who are listening or watching, until the next episode, talk to you soon.

Alejo Porras, driven by a passionate pursuit of challenges, shares how embodying a can-do attitude has significantly propelled personal growth and career advancement. Beyond business success, Alejo is motivated by a desire to be a good father and husband and positively impact others. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings, saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Alejo's current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Where to find Alejo Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Alejo's Website Alejo on Instagram Alejo on LinkedIn Alejo's newsletter FRESH IDEAS Hire Alejo for Graphic Recording Sketchnote Army Podcast Season 10 Episode 1 Eddie Shleyner Website Steve Magness Book Tips Show up consistently, be present, and care about what you do. Be kind to yourself. Be curious about people to learn how to make them feel appreciated and loved. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike and I'm here with my friend, Alejo Porras. Alejo, it's time to come back on the show. It's been, man, since 2021. You were in season 10, and so much has changed in your life. I thought it'd be cool to have you back on and talk about what's going on. Alejo Porras: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me again, Mike. Honestly, you know, since 2021, I cannot believe it, I thought it was like last year. MR: I know. Doesn't it seem like just recently? AP: Yeah, it feels like not much has happened, but at the same time, so much has happened. And yeah, I appreciate the invitation again, and I'm looking forward to this conversation. MR: Yeah. If you're listening here, I think the thing to listen for is I guess the growth and evolution of Alejo and where he was. We'll put a link in the show notes. His episode was season 10, episode 1, September 6th, 2021. We'll put a link to that so you can go listen to that if you're curious to see where he was and compare it to what he's doing now. But you've been doing a lot of really interesting work. You challenged yourself to do lots of work intentionally. So you've been doing a lot of work. Someone that I follow and I really admire, Chris Doe is someone who you have been doing sketch noting about, and then it looks like you're working with him to some degree. So I'm just gonna step back, and why don't you take us from September 6th, 2021 till today and tell us what's going on? AP: Oh my gosh. So, a lot. Well, when we talked last time, I was diving deep into artist coaching, and I had this dream, this desire of turning something that I had been doing for so long, which is coaching people, leading people, helping people do their best and excel in their careers. I was trying to figure out if there was something that I could do on the side because I had a full-time job at that point. And yeah, I just wanted to try that out. I had some coaching experiences, I took some coaches, and then I realized that my expertise didn't lay there, and it was hard for me to position myself as a coach when I was so widely known as an artist. At some point, I was like, "I'm not giving it my all. I don't think this is moving forward. I'm helping people, but I don't feel like I even have the capacity because of my full-time job and my family to take on extra after work to get coaching with people." So I stopped that for a little bit. Then 2022 was a time in which I was struggling to find a balance and to find harmony with my rhythms of life. Partly because I was working a job that I absolutely loved. It was the best full-time job I have ever had and I was enjoying it., The problem was that I had to work a full-time job, and then I had to commute on certain days. It was an hour commute going to the office, an hour coming back, and then I came back home absolutely drained. I gave it all, and I was so exhausted. My son, who at the time was three and a half, four, maybe. Yeah, four. He wanted to play with me. I remember sometimes he was like, "Papa, play with me. Play with me." And I was there on the couch like, yeah, I want to. My eyes were starting to close and I felt like I was gonna start falling asleep. And I was like, "No, this cannot happen. I want to be a good dad. I want to be a present dad." I still have my moments in which I'm probably working too much, but now that I'm freelancing or in my own business, it fluctuates. There's some days that I can just spend with him. But at that point, it was like every day I felt this tension of I'm not being a completely present dad, and that's not what I want. That's not what I wanted for my life. Part of that is my background with my relationship with my dad, because my parents divorced and then my dad was not physically present in my own home. And also, we didn't hang out that much. And I missed him for most of my teenage years and younger years. I learned from him, even though he did the best that he could, you know, that we didn't have a close relationship. I remember when I was 16 or 15 that I committed myself and I thought, "I wanna be a great dad when I am a dad." So since that moment, I started kind of preparing myself and trying to do my best to become a good dad. In '22, I was struggling with that tension. And in December of 2022, I had a meeting with my then bosses and they actually offered me a raise and a promotion. I felt something so odd 'cause the first impression was like, "Wow, I'm really thankful for that. You guys are trusting me and have obviously thought about this next stage very, very carefully." It was a substantial raise too. It was very generous, but I didn't feel happy about it. It was odd and it was partly this brewing sensation that I needed to make a change in my career. But I couldn't figure out how to take the step. The thing that happened was that, that was on a Friday, and the Monday after that, my dad had a stroke, and on Wednesday he died. So through all the chaos, I was like, "I'm gonna think about it, guys. Thank you so much." I never say yes immediately. I have room to negotiate and all that stuff. And at that point, I hadn't said yes or no to what my then bosses have told me. They were very supportive and all that. I went to attend business to Costa Rica and do all the things that needed to do as only child that I am. It was a wakeup call to me. It was like going back and reflecting on my relationship with my dad made me think really hard about the path that I was leading and how I want to be remembered as a dad by my son. So I then and there thought like, "I love this job, but I cannot continue in this capacity. I want to keep working with them, but I need to be at home more often. I need to have time for my family." By January, I told them, you know, all of that. I told them, "Hey guys," 'cause I was creative lead, you know, at this company. And I was like, "I'm not gonna just go. Let's make a plan here 'cause I know you need to find somebody to fill the space and to fill the role. I wanna support you guys and you've been very good to me." So we devise a plan and it took me three, four months to transition to part-time. Now, they're my client. They're like my biggest client. I work with them for projects, but I don't have to go to the office except if I'm doing a workshop 'cause I work workshops with them. It's been great since then. It's kinda like the silver lining how something so sad, you know, and choking serves in a way to wake me up and realize that the path that I need to take is different. I feel like from that point on, my life has been taken off. So, you know, it's been great since, you know, since April-May last year when I started just working from home in my own business with my wife. The opportunities that have arrived since then is something that I didn't even imagine. I couldn't have planned. The last day that I had as I was working full-time, the day after that I went to a conference to Creative South. I think you've been there. MR: Yeah, I've heard of that before. I've never been, but I've heard it. It looks really great. AP: Yeah. I think it was a perfect kind of segue into my new life, I will say. 'Cause I got with other creatives and I got pumped about things that I do. Got a lot of feedback of things that I'm—because I did sketch notes there and people loved them and all this stuff. So I was like, "Okay, I have content here. I can start promoting that I do this thing, you know, as myself and then try to figure out how to structure my business in a way that fits the lifestyle that I want to achieve." So I hired a coach right away, and I started working with her. Well, one of the first things that she told me was, you know, "A lot of people that I work—" She was with corporate CEOs and all that stuff. She said, "A lot of people have trouble in their business trying to promote it because the benefit of what they do, it's kind of abstract, but the benefit of what you do is immediately visible. When you show your sketch note, people can immediately see the value of it. So you have an advantage here. All you need to do to get clients is to show your work, you know, and show it consistently." And she told me, "Maybe one thing that you can do is just to join people that you admire in webinars that they're having, in the conversations that they're having, and do sketch notes and just, you know, send them to them and see what happens. See what feedback you get there. You get goodwill from that. And also, it's an opportunity maybe, you know, to get noticed if they decide to reshare that stuff." I was like, "Yeah, that's a good idea. I have a lot of people that I admire and I would love to just, you know, from the content, just do sketch notes and share it with them." It was so funny 'cause the first one that I did was a workshop—no, it wasn't a workshop. It was like a —yeah, it was a workshop, I guess that was kind of promoting a course. I had forgotten about it, and I was about to take a break for lunch and I saw it on my calendar and it was like, it starts in 10 minutes. I was like, "Should I join? I don't know." MR: How hungry am I? AP: Yeah. I was like, "You know what, let's do it." But at that point, I was just joining workshops in general. I wasn't necessarily taking sketch notes. But when he started, he said, "I apologize for the presentation. I haven't used PowerPoint since I was in college. But the content is there and the content was great." And I thought, "Hmm, maybe I can just do a sketch note. You know, put some graphics to what he's saying and then send it to him kind of like, 'Hey, you know, your webinar was awesome. The content was fantastic. Here's something, you know, if he interested you, you can repurpose it for your next, you know, webinar or whatever.'" 'Cause I've followed his work and his content for a while. I did that. And the thing is, he hadn't finished because he finished a workshop and then he had Q&A , and during the Q&A I got them polished, and before all the thing was finished, I posted it. And when he finished the workshop and hopped on Instagram and saw it, he was like, "Whoa, this is cool." MR: What the heck? AP: Exactly. He reshared it. And I think that kind of snowballed from there, because I committed myself to do one sketch note every week. So I either join a webinar, join a workshop, or there's no events happening, I just listen to a podcast and then do that. That has taught me—I'm making this story super long. MR: That's okay. AP: But that has taught me the thing for us visual artists in general, and especially, you know, your crowd who does sketch notes and graphic recording and all that stuff, show your work and show up in spaces with the kind of people that you will love to be working with. I initially just did it from, you know, thought leaders and people that I follow, that I admire, and that I'm grateful for their content. And kind of like, "Hey, I'm grateful, just this is as a thank you, you know, for you." And it also served me for practice because I discovered certain things about my style, how I wanted to show my work in a way that was different from the kind of work that I was doing before for other people. It gave me more confidence and it and definitely helped me, you know, open some doors. Chris Doe is one of those doors that was open just because I showed up. And I'm super grateful. I say to people that I have learned so much from Chris Doe because I have followed him since 2000, I think 17 or '16. And I have learned so much that I feel like by doing this thing, I'm kinda like paying him back. MR: Yeah. That's interesting. AP: I kinda owe him a lot of money for all the business advice that I've gotten from him. So I'm just trying to pay it back, pay it forward. And yeah, it's been phenomenal. And right now that's what I'm doing. I'm doing, I call it visual summaries because there's a lot of it that is not life. It's just people sending me content for the recorded stuff. MR: Recorded stuff. Yeah. AP: Yeah, recorded stuff. Yeah. So I'm doing that and growing my business and it's been great. It's been great so far. So long story, long. There you go. MR: Well, that's what a podcast is for, right? You can tell the long stories and not feel constrained or compressed. Well, that's really cool. That's quite a shift. I find it interesting that you were right at this precipice. And I can imagine if they were making you an offer to be elevated in the company, it wasn't gonna be less time at the office or less responsibility or less of your mind, it would be more. And as it was, you were already maxed out, even without doing the side stuff, you're coming home just totally s sapped out. And it was in a way, leaving you with no energy for your son or your wife or anything that you wanted to do on your own, because it was so intense. AP: Yeah. When I started there, I was wearing many hats and, you know, they put me on one hat and I intentionally took all the hats because that's just the kind of person that I am. I like to do different things and learn. So the restructuring of that was, "Okay, let's just put you one hat. One hat that is very important that only you can do." So definitely it was more responsibility. It wouldn't have required more time in work, you know, but it was definitely more responsibility and more a managerial aspect of things. So yeah, it was probably like taking a step up into the corporate ladder. And even though I didn't have to wear a tie, I would've felt that way. It's fine because now that I'm freelancing—well, not freelancing, I own my own business, I have to know all those things as well. So I'm doing that, but I'm also very involved in the fulfillment part of actually doing the drawings and being part of that. So I think it's a good balance by now. After my other coach, I got enrolled in another cohort that I am right now. Well, at this point of this interview, I'm still going through it. And it's been great because I'm just learning from other experts and people who are in the creative industry who have way more experience than me, are making way more money than I am. And that's where I like to be. I like to feel like I'm the small fish that has room to grow. And these spaces where I feel inadequate, 'cause I don't have that much knowledge, make me feel like there's definitely a way in which I can create this business that helps the lifestyle that I want to achieve. Because I don't dream with becoming a huge company that has a lot of employees and that is busy all the time. I dream with having to work just the amount of time that I want to work and making all the money that I can from that time because I want the work to support my lifestyle. I don't want my lifestyle to be the second thought to make my business grow, if that makes sense. MR: Mm-hmm. AP: So, yeah, it's been fun. MR: Interesting. What kind of opportunities has that opened up? Obviously, you talked about doing this weekly sketch note or visual summary. Something visual weekly, maybe that's a good way to say it, right? AP: Yeah. MR: Because I can imagine someone's listening and thinking, "Ooh, that's a really good idea. Maybe I should try that." Are there any recommendations you can say around how do you structure it, what to look for if someone is—or is there a way to structure it in a way that encourages people to reach out to you? Should there be an end slide that's got your info? Should you have a link? What kind of stuff would encourage someone who sees it to like, "Oh, I wanna hire that person," kind of thing. Assuming someone wants to do similar thing. AP: That is a great question. And I think to answer that question, people need to take into consideration that all learning compounds so there's not a one trick that solves everything, is a collection of different aspects that all enhance the opportunity that you have. I think all the life is trying to find how to increase your odds of success. There's no guaranteed success, right? It's just more odds, more possibilities for that so that when opportunities show up, you're kind of, you have fertile ground. This is gonna sound completely unexpected, but copywriting and personal interaction, I think are one of the most important aspects when you're showing what you do. I've learned, because I also took a class in communication, and I've been learning about copywriting. Two years ago, I found this guy Eddie, I forgot his last name. He has a website that's called VeryGoodCopy, and his newsletter is really, really good. He teaches people how to write copywriting for advertising and stuff like that. All of that is very useful because at the end of the day, if you have something that is great, you know, if your work is amazing and you cannot communicate the value of it, people won't get it. Sometimes you have to give people the words that they can use to describe what you do. I'm not an expert by all means, but I've learned to copyright to a degree in which I feel like I'm okay at it, and I can communicate something that is clear when I'm doing a post and when I'm sharing what I do with other people. So I would say, you know, become curious about learning how to write well, how to communicate your ideas well, in written form in a way that is succinct, that is clear. And hopefully, you know, get somebody to help you out with that if it's a struggle. I have the enormous privilege that my wife is really good at writing. So she's my editor. Another thing that I've done to improve my writing is I have a newsletter that goes every Monday, and I have her read most of my newsletters. Sometimes I just forget or I just write it at last minute, like on Sunday night. So she's already asleep and I need to send it. But she has helped me to polish and make my ideas more clear when I communicate them. So that's one thing, you know, communication. And the other one has to do with kinda like the art of conversation being somebody who is genuinely curious about connecting with other people. After all, social media has the word "social" for a reason. If you just post things there and you expect that people are just kinda click on them and interact for some magical reason, you're delusional or you're selfish because that's an ad. You know, an ad is something that you put in front of somebody who doesn't know you, and you expect that they do something about it. But for that, you need to have a good copy so that they know why they should interact with it. I've developed this kinda like taste. There's one thing that I'm doing right now, for example, is I am forcing myself that if I like something on Instagram, on LinkedIn, I have to write a comment and the comment has to be useful. Not, not just like, "Hey, that's great, or that's cool." Because that doesn't add any value. And I just imagine, you know, like, "I did this sketch note, look at these guys. I'm so proud of it." And somebody's like, "Cool," you know. MR: That's nice, but that doesn't really, yeah. AP: Yeah. And it is like, "Okay, I appreciate it, but I don't really remember that person." The person who said cool versus the person who said, "Oh my gosh, this is so great. I had learned about this, and this is helping me in this reason." Was like, oh, we engage in a conversation now and I noticed this person. I've realized, for example, LinkedIn is great about that because on Instagram when you comment, it kinda like stays there, but LinkedIn is very focused on interaction and commenting to the point that the people that I follow when they comment on something, even if it's somebody that I don't know, I see their comments and I can join that conversation. So I really love that. Is all about making these conversations happen. Before I connected with anybody, I engaged with their content, and that's what I do right now. I try to find people that's like, "Oh, I love what they do." A lot of people is like, "Send friend requests or send connection requests". I follow to see what they're doing, and I comment and I stay on the radar, and once I have earned their trust and they already see that I'm there, then I feel like that's the point in which you can eventually send a connection request or, you know, move a little bit further into something like that. I love that approach because it's not salesy. I'm not trying to sell things to anybody. I'm just trying to kind of make friends and make contacts and add value. I know that said a lot, but just give something that people enjoy that is insightful, that helps them in some way or entertains them. And if there's a good relationship there, I feel like it's just way easier because when you have a relationship with somebody that you, like, you support them, you know, and you don't feel like you're being sold to. It's like, "Oh, I do this thing. Oh, so cool. What can I do for you?" That's something that has helped me a lot. Just kinda like making relationships with people online. Now, I don't know that—I guess people will still have the question of like, okay, so I get it, I have to learn how to write, I have to get out of my shell and start making some friends. But what about the actual sketch note portfolio thing? I think what I did is just something that you can replicate. I honestly don't mind if you don't do it. Hey, if you do it, I will say challenging yourself to do one a week.t is very, you know, low-hanging fruit, I will say. It's not that hard to do. MR: It's doable. It's doable. Yeah. AP: Yeah. It's very doable. You do one a week and you commit yourself to share it every week. It doesn't have to be a specific day, just like one a week. It forces you—I look back and I did a reel about it that showed like, pah, pah, pah. MR: I saw that. Yeah. AP: Yeah. And I was like, wow, I did all that? MR: I did all that? Yeah. AP: Yeah. It is very rewarding. It's very rewarding. I like how James Clear, I think is who says, "You're kind of gathering proof." Because people say, "Fake it till you make it." I'm more of the side of like, make it, and the more you make it, you gather proof of how you actually are, or who you really want to be. So, yeah, I'm a sketch noter because I do it now. Before it was like, I'm gonna do it every day. And now it's like I have proof of that. Proof that nobody can deny much less myself. So I hope that's helpful. MR: That reminds me of I have a few friends who have PhDs and something that I remember that my one friend told me was, if you go into academia, there are a million, they're called ABDs, all but dissertation. They're people that did all the coursework and now they're challenged with writing the dissertation, which they have to then defend and then they receive their PhD. That's like the hardest step. And he said there's a million ABDs out there because the easy part is doing the coursework 'cause It's structured. The hard part is now taking all that coursework, choosing what your focus area is, and then going to research it and prove it and defend it. That's the hard part. I think that's the same thing with doing any kind of work. Like writing a book would be an example, one thing or anything where you're consistently doing things over and over again. It proves like, "Hey, Alejo showed up again this week. Wow, man, I can expect that something's coming every week." And it gives you credibility, I think, that you are committed, right? You're showing commitment where it's easy to just occasionally now and then do something and not have that commitment. It doesn't have quite the impact, you know? AP: Yeah, definitely true. Not only for, you know, promotional reasons, but just from a personal standpoint. Again, because the beginning of that would be to prove to yourself that you can do it and that you're the kind of person that does this thing. 'Cause I feel like that's the mental barrier that is harder to actually jump over. I was actually talking with my wife this morning. Of course, at the beginning of this conversation before we started recording, I was telling Mike that I did a cop lunch this morning. And it was an interesting experience, but what I didn't tell him was something that it just struck me when I was doing it and after I finished doing that was that I have a motto for this year, and my motto is, "I can do hard things." I've been doing personal training, working out, trying to get in better shape. I've been also crossing my comfort zone to show up in different situations that are awkward or difficult and prove myself that I can do it. When I was doing that, I was like, most people will say, "Oh my gosh, you're crazy. I would never get in a bathtub that is cold for no reason." Because it's painful. Because it's hard. And it is very tempting to think people are not doing something that is beneficial because it's hard, because it's difficult, because it's painful. But actually, most people, the barrier that they have is not the pain, it's not the hardship, it's actually comfort. Comfort is the first barrier that you have that you need to cross to achieve the life that you want to live, to achieve the success that you want to achieve, to get the clients that you want to have. Because we are very comfortable in our comfort zone, right? We're very comfortable with being who we are at this moment. And that challenge, it's not the challenge itself, it's just losing that comfort, is what scares most of us. I'm starting to trying to ignore comfort. It's not that I'm becoming masochistic by any means, you know. I still like coffee, shoes and stuff like that. But in certain things, I feel like as a culture, we probably worship too much comfort and convenience and that has taken a toll in the amount of reach and growth that we can potentially have as human beings, not just physically, but also mentally and in business as well. As artists, of course, so don't get comfortable would be just summarizing all that. Don't get too comfortable. Comfort is not a great thing if you want to grow. MR: Maybe comfort in moderation, right? Just like anything else. AP: Yeah. Yeah. MR: It's funny you mentioned doing hard things. There's actually a book, I can see it over in my library area called Do Hard Things by Steve Magnus. It's actually a book that was written I think last year. Really fascinating. He's a performance coach for Olympic athletes and things like that. And then he talks about how important it's to do difficult things. Kind of what you're saying, that develops this. And, you know, it's interesting when I look back, I've had things break that I had to fix or things that I had to solve where, "Well, I'm just gonna have to figure this out." I felt really good afterwards when I solved it. You know, it's really satisfying. AP: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like we're created for that. The way that we are wired is to solve things and feel, fulfilled. It's very hard to say, but we find fulfillment and purpose when we are doing something that is improving something else. That we're solving a problem. It's just very rewarding. I feel like at the core, we all need to experience that we are capable. You know, part of that is, you know, doing for myself the physical training. It's like, I wanna know that I can run. I don't wanna feel like my body is getting in the way of what I am able to accomplish. I don't remember who I told this, but I used to sing a lot. I actually went through like 10 years of training for singing. It was fantastic. I loved it. I still like to sing. The problem is that at some point, and I think it's probably when I came here to the U.S., I developed a lot of allergies and all that, and I felt like my range of voice has lowered. So sometimes I'll be listening to a song and inside of me, I know how I should accommodate my mouth and the level of pressure of air that I should put into it, and how I put my tongue and all that. I know what I could do to reach that note, to reach that volume, but I can't physically do it right now because of the problems that I have. And it's so frustrating. I know how I could do it, but I can do it. It's one of the worst feelings to experience. And I don't wanna—I know we have limitations that there's—I'm probably not gonna be able to be an Olympic athlete or something like that, but I know in my body, and I know in my mind there's certain things—or maybe I'm just delusional, but I believe that I can do way more than I can do right now. What's keeping me from doing that is something that I can work on. And that's what I'm trying to do. I'm just trying to work on, because when I accomplish those simple steps, you know, just showing up my work, being recognized by people that I admire and not only from people that I admire, but from people who see me and say like, yeah, of course. You know, there was a friend who saw me—I got on an Instagram live with Chris Doe, and a friend was like, "Oh, look at that. Alejo is just talking with Chris Doe." Sure. For him was like, "Of course, why not?" And I'm like, "Are you kidding me? This is Virginia. I don't know how it happened to me, you know, but" The certain things that now that I'm doing and some people are noticing, believing in myself more than I sometimes do, it's just very rewarding because just showing up and just try to push that boundary and actually accomplishes those things, it makes me feel so alive. And it's something that I would love for everybody to experience. And again, the wall that is you know covering that is just the comfort zone. So get over it. Step over it. Yeah. MR: It's funny. I have a story that came to mind when you're talking about that and it's years ago I did illustrations for Rework and Remote with Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson at 37signals. And they invited me 'cause I'm in Milwaukee. I'm an hour and a half train right away. They said, "Hey, we wanna hire you to do some sketch notes. We have these big chalkboards in our office. Would you come down and do a mural on one of these chalkboards with chalk?" I was like, "Yeah, sure." So I gave 'em a price and they agreed and hired me to come down. And I got there and I bought all these chalk and I had ideas about what I was gonna do. And I think it's on my Flickr account buried deep in the history. But I got there and I remember Jason and I were talking and Jason said, "So you got a lot of experience doing chalk." I was like, "I have no idea, but I'll be an expert by the end of the day." I just knew that, "Okay, it can't be that hard. I mean, you know, it's my personality, it's gonna come out, I'm gonna figure things out." I had played around with chalk before. It wasn't like I never used chalk in my life, so it wasn't that. But I knew that by the end of the day, I would be really good at it and have an approach to how to do it. You know, which by the time I got to the end of the day, I went back to the beginning, oh, I could fix that and I would adjust things and, you know, made it into this cool mural thing. But it was the attitude of like, "Hey, this is an experiment they're okay with. They trust me as Mike to do something." 'Cause I had proven myself, we talked about proving yourself. I'd done all kinds of work before. So they knew who I was, they trusted me, and then they turned me loose on their chalkboards and paid me money to do this and kind of experiment. But I knew we're gonna figure this out. And they were confident and they were really happy at the end. So, you can get to that place. AP: Mike, that is amazing because that speaks to a characteristic that I believe everybody who is just starting in their career or anything that they're trying to accomplish should acquire in order to grow and is saying yes. Whatever shows up in front of you, if you're not completely ready, if you don't feel like you're completely qualified but you have the opportunity, just say yes and figure it out on the go. Because honestly, life is all about that. Because you don't have a school that tells you, "This is how life's gonna go," and then you're ready and everything's gonna go as planned. Life is awesome, but throwing curve balls happens all the time. And what we need to do is to develop the skill to adapt to those circumstances. So everything in life is adaptation. And when you treat your career as, "I'm not ready, I'm gonna get ready for this or I don't feel unqualified, I'm gonna learn to get better at that." Then you learn a skill and hopefully you even get paid to learn that skill. Which is amazing. You know, you're not paying a institution, you're not paying a workshop, they're paying you to learn. Now of course, if there's something that is like super high stakes, sometimes you gotta be careful with that, but I think that most of the time we actually—the stakes are not as high. MR: We elevate them more than maybe they really are. AP: Exactly. Exactly. So it's definitely a great—and I've approached my life in that way all the time. It's just because I'm kind of crazy about challenges. You know, I'm just like, "Challenge accepted, let's try it out." Sometimes that has translated into me being a little bit unfocused of like, I wanna try just many different things. So, you know, from a few years, probably '22 till now, I'm trying to just do the one thing. You know, I'm doing the sketchnotes, I'm doing the graphic recording stuff. This is what I'm doing. I'm not playing music anymore. Not because I don't like it, I love it. It is just I need to focus and learning this business and all that stuff. But there's a lot about business that I don't know, and I cannot sit down and try to plan the perfect business model and pretend that I'm gonna start when I have it figured out. No, you build the boat as you go. Definitely it's a great attitude to have. I'm figuring it out. It's a great attitude to have. MR: If you're listening, here's the challenge. Have you ever taken a job where when you did the interview and you got there to the first day and you thought, "Oh man, this" is way beyond my capability. And then six months later, like, "What was I thinking? I could definitely do this. I'm already looking at new ways to do things." You know, I've experienced that many times on jobs where, you know, I would not totally kind of believe I could do it. And like my wife would like, "Dude, you got this." Or friends or other people I worked with would know that I would be able to do it. So everybody's kind of experienced that where, you know, it's just a normal human fear, like a failure, but you just have to go forward. I look at like, if it's too easy, maybe that's actually a warning sign that maybe that's not as important as finding something that's just a little bit scary. Just a little bit scary, right? That "I haven't totally done that before. How would that go?" Putting yourself into a corner, right.? I like to say, "Put yourself in the pickle. How am I gonna get myself out of this pickle I found myself in?" So it forces you to be adaptable and to think of like, "Well, what are the resources I have on hand? What are good things about this situation that I can leverage?" And turn that in a positive direction because there always seems to be when you really look at it. AP: That's true. Mike, I know that you are interviewing me, but I've very, very curious to make this question. MR: Go for it. AP: I imagine you probably have had a lot of situations like this, so maybe just the first one that comes to your head, besides the chalkboard that you just explained, a very uncomfortable situation that you have said yes to, or something that was like probably the highest one that you feel like this was very challenging and you just kinda went for it and prayed that it would work out. MR: Well, there's two instances. I think one that was more difficult was, I was talking with the New York City School District and there was somebody, a principal of a school wanted to have me come in and teach his staff, but apparently there was lots of paperwork and it was complicated and he wasn't totally sure how to make it happen. But then he was talking with somebody who was higher up that said, "Well, we need a keynote speaker for the last talk of the year to come fly in and talk to 600 teachers in Brooklyn at this high school." So he said, "Hey, would you be open to doing that? If we do that, you'll be in the system, and then after that, then you can come and do my thing." "Yeah, sure, let's go for it." And so, I was a little bit scared. I'm in New York City, there's, you know, tough New York City teachers, right? There's 600 of them out in this audience. Like, "Holy cow, this maybe is the biggest crowd that I've ever spoken to." I went back to what I know that there's something in here for somebody. Now, that might not be for everybody. There's gonna be people that will tune me out. That's just the way it is. But there's some people out here who are really gonna benefit. And the way we had structured it too was I did the presentation about the story of sketchnotes and did some really basic drawing stuff with them. And then we had sessions afterwards where we had intense workshops where they actually did work building their sketchnoting skills. I was like, "Oh man, I'm gonna give this talk and there's 800 teachers here, no one's gonna come to my thing. There's all these thoughts going through my head. Like, there's a lot of people. I'm gonna invite them to these—I think we had two classes, one before and one after lunch. Like, no one's gonna come. And it was like, people were saying how much they enjoyed it. The room was packed. They ran outta room, you know, and it really reinforced then that the principal had made a really good choice. And then the next year, which was, I think that was the last travel I did before the pandemic in early 2020. So I went out and spent the day with his group. You think about that, if I had said no, just think of the opportunities that it would've closed off for me. And also, the confidence building. Like, hey, I can speak in front of eight, 900 tough New York City teachers. And they liked it and they packed up my classes. It was really encouraging. So it went from potentially scary to really encouraging by the end. AP: Yeah. That's phenomenal. That's great. I love those stories because they definitely bring the point down, you know, bring the point up or I don't know, bring the point to highlight it that definitely things can turn way better than we expect if we just dare to try. I'm a firm believer that, and I've said this before, that the doors of opportunity may seem closed, but that doesn't mean that they're locked. I'm gonna say that again 'cause I butcher it. The doors of opportunity may seem closed, but that doesn't mean that they're locked. And you can either knock on the door if you're able, or be friends with people in the neighborhood that can introduce you to it. But I realize many doors are just waiting to be knocked and we're just hesitant about it. The first time we were in this podcast, I reach out to you. I hadn't done any podcast before and I was like, "What if I just reach out to the founder of Sketch notes and tell him, 'Hey, how would I do an interview?' Would he ignore me? Would he be too busy for me? I don't know. I'm just gonna try." And you were like, "Yeah, sure, let's do it." I was like, "Oh, he's actually excited about it." After that I was like, "Okay, I'm just gonna start asking people for things." I'm not intruding, I'm just asking. And it turns out when you ask people answer and the answer is better than the silence that you get from not trying. MR: Yeah. Even sometimes you get a no, but no, that doesn't fit for this. But hey, could you do this thing over here? This thing next week? Sometimes the thing that's a no can turn into a something else, or sometimes. AP: Yeah. That's something that I've learned from sales 'cause that's one thing that I'm learning a lot right now. What I've learned in the past few weeks is the purpose of a sales conversation is to reach to a no or a yes. If you get a no or a yes, the conversation was worth it and was successful. If you get a maybe or an I don't know, that was unsuccessful. You need to figure out and help the client or the prospect arrive to a decision that is either no or yes. For me, it's the same. I prefer when I ask anything to get a yes or a no, because a no gives me information that I need to learn. The yes gives me the opportunity, but the silence or the, maybe it's awful. You don't know how to deal with that. I figure like at the end of the day, it's better to ask than to just stay wondering what would've happened if I had tried. MR: Yeah, those who ask get many times. AP: Yep. Right. That's absolutely true. MR: Well, in true nature, so this is a very different episode of the podcast than we normally do, which I love, right. We just had a good discussion and talking about these ideas, and I think they're helpful for anybody listening who's individual thinking it's a human problem, human challenge, right? AP: Yeah. MR: Let me ask you for three tips, and I want you to think of it this way, is Alejo just went on a journey from 2021, I think, to now, and there's some new tips that he is learned since the last time he was here. If you were to give three tips to people listening based on what you've learned to this point, what would those three tips be for them? AP: The first one would be—okay, I'm gonna say the first one in the second place. MR: Okay. AP: The first one would actually be to show up. I firmly believe that success is not what you achieve once you do something, success is showing up. It's believing in yourself that you are enough to take space in the world and show what you do. I think that's the first thing. Just show up consistently, be present, care about what you do. The second one with that, I think it's kinda like a requisite, and that's why I'm merging it kind of weird, but be kind to yourself. I say this, you know, maybe if you're listening and you're a little bit like me, just a little bit like me, you struggle with some insecurities, not because you feel like you're not capable or because you're afraid of how people might perceive you. I have been for ages kind of people pleaser. I love to make people feel well. I love it. I love to give a good impression for people, but I've had to learn in next few years that I also need to think about my own wellbeing. Sometimes not not doing my best or not approaching something makes me kind of doubt myself or be too hard on myself. This idea of being kind to yourself, I think it's at the core of whatever you're gonna try. Because if you're doing something for the first time, or you're doing something that you haven't done a lot, it's just logical that you're probably gonna suck at it. You know, you're gonna be very bad. You're probably gonna fail a lot. And that's okay. So while you are attempting these new things, be kind to yourself to remember, I'm learning, I'm trying, I'm doing my best, I'm growing, and this is moving me forward. Because if you're not kind with yourself, you're gonna stop showing up. And that will be a shame because people will miss you. The world will miss your gift. So show your gift, you know, show up consistently. Be kind to yourself. The third one could be I guess, I'm gonna frame it as the golden rule sort of thing. Maybe it's just a platinum rule. The golden rule is do unto others what you would have done unto yourself. I like to challenge that a little bit because if I were to treat people how I like to be treated, some people will not get it right. I'm a very—and this is a funny story parenthesis here. In Costa Rica and Latin America in general, we're very touchy. You know, we hug, you know, we're very, "Hey, how you doing?" The first time that I was here in the United States, I had a friend that took me to his college and introduced me some people there. There were these three ladies on a table, they were having lunch. And he was like, "Hey, this is Alejo. He's my friend Costa Rica." And I immediately went and say hi with a kiss in the cheek. And they were like, "What just happened?" And I was like, "Did I do something wrong? What happened?" He said, "We don't do that here. I was like, "Oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't—that's how we do it. It's probably very naive of me, but now I know like, not everybody likes to be greeted that way. That's a boundary that I respect. So I don't treat people how I would like them to treat me. I try to figure out how they want to be treated and then treat them that way. So I will say the third one would be—well, the second one is be kind to yourself. And the third one would be be curious about other people so that you can learn how to treat them better so that you can learn how to make them feel appreciated, Loved. Because that not only goes for personal relationships, very close, you know, like a partner or family or stuff like that. But you know, we are in business, you know, most of the people that listen here have some sort of business or are working in some capacity. And when you treat other people according to how they need to be treated, you're showing them that you care for them, that you respect them, and that creates a better relationship that can enhance the you know, the work that you have with them and can even make you like you so much that they can recommend you to others. So you never know how this gonna happen. In general, I feel like just being a nice person, it's a good thing. So, try to be a nice person. Onto the point of like, I am being nice, but I'm not being nice for people to like me. I'm just being nice because I like people. It's very different. I'm gonna say that again probably, you know, because it might take some time to let it sink in. Being nice because you like other people, not because you're trying to make them like you. Two very different things. The second one is people pleasing. The first one is just an attitude of you are a loving person. And it changes completely. You're not approaching things as if you were needy or craving for attention. You're just trying to be helpful. And that makes that, if somebody doesn't appreciate what you give or is being disrespectful with you, you can put boundaries and you can, you know, keep your cool, I would say, without feeling attacked or sad or, you know, depressed or anything like that. MR: It takes away the burden, right? You can be nice to people because it's just the right thing to do without any strings to say, you have to like me now. That's the trade where the unspoken trade is I'm gonna be nice to you, but you have to like me. And you can just let go of that, right. Like this is just the way I am. Whether you're mean to me or you're nice to me, I'm gonna still be consistent. I'm gonna still treat you the right way because that's the way my mom and dad taught me. That's the way I think is the right way. I want my kids to treat people that way and that's the way it's gonna be. So how you react has nothing to do with how I treat you kind of almost. AP: Absolutely. I had this conversation recently on LinkedIn 'cause I shared a few—there was somebody who put like a list of the most prominent or cool visual artist in LinkedIn and stuff like that. And I was like, "Oh, I like this. I'm gonna tag some people that I know. And I tagged some, my son was like, "Hey papa, come play with me." So I didn't write everybody that I could think of. I just wrote a few and then send it. And then somebody started adding up. It's like, "Oh, there's so many people doing this thing. This is amazing. Let's just share and, you know, highlight everybody." And then somebody wrote me personally and this person was a little bit conflicted. It was like, "I didn't add anybody there." This person just became very honest with me. It's like, "There's a lot of great people doing these things, but I feel like some people, some of them, they just don't reciprocate. You know, some of them are just doing their own thing, or I feel like they're plain ignore me," or, you know, something like that. And I was telling this person, "It's their problem, and maybe they're just too busy or maybe they just don't like social media and it's not anything personal. So I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt." And be like, "Well, I'm doing this because of who I am, because I want to help my audience by showing them people that I admire. Even if some of these people might never return any favors to me, I don't care. It's me, the one who's being generous and that's who I care about." So, you know, if somebody's being straight up bully with you, then, you know, of course that's— MR: That's a long story. Yeah, yeah. AP: But you know, besides that, I think from your heart of generosity, nothing bad can come. MR: Yeah. I think it's just a good way to operate in the world. I've just seen it open too many good opportunities. Even just being nice to the person at the—I picked up a prescription the other day and I was chatting with the lady and she said, "Drive safely." Like, you know, just there's opportunities everywhere. A lot of times we are so in our head or we're so afraid to mess up. We don't say anything. And there's opportunities to be nice and maybe you made somebody's day. I don't know. I mean, so great tips. These are great tips. Thank you so much. AP: Sure thing. I'm glad it'll be helpful. MR: I'm looking at the old episode and we have links to your website and Twitter and Instagram. What's the best place to reach you and are there places you hang out the most? Sounds like LinkedIn probably has moved up the list a little bit for you. I suppose. AP: Yeah. Now I do have a caveat for LinkedIn because I've shared some stuff that people have reshared and have gotten to so many eyeballs out there. I have at this moment 300 requests for connection. MR: Oh, wow. AP: And most of them, I've never seen them in my life, I don't know who they are, and I don't know why they want to reach out to me. What I say is like, "Hey, you can follow people everywhere." That sounds very creepy, but you know, you can follow people on Instagram. You can follow people on LinkedIn if you're interested in their content. If you want to connect, then I think the first step is just to have conversations. So gauge, you know, show up in the comments, show up that you're interested and show up as a valuable person. Because at the end of the day, we want to spend time with people that add value to our lives. We can love everybody, but we're gonna spend time with people who add value to our lives. MR: Right. You have to make a decision. AP: Yeah. Exactly. So if you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, make sure that first you engage with my content and you comment and you make yourself known. And when you send a request, send a message that says— MR: Yes, that's key. AP: Hey, you know, I've been following you for a while. MR: Context. Yeah. AP: Yeah. And the context is not just, "I love your work, let's connect." Okay, if you love my work, you're following, you can keep loving my work, but what are you trying to add to my life? That is not selfish at all 'cause also I have connections. Are you just trying to access my connections, you know? I don't know. So I have that rule, like it's just a policy, you know, I call it. I don't accept connection requests unless I know this person. And they have given me a clear reason why they want to connect with me with, not just with the idea of getting something from me, but also, they're trying to be, you know, mutual. So that's my thing. But I love to say that Instagram is my neighborhood and LinkedIn is downtown where I go to work. I take the business part of LinkedIn very seriously and Instagram is a little bit more loose in that regard. You can send me messages on LinkedIn and I will—eh, on Instagram and I will definitely newer there. So, but those are the two places where I'm at. I'm on Threads too, but not too often. MR: That's basically Instagram with text only, I suppose. AP: Yeah. MR: What's the old phrase? Party in the front business in the back or business In the front party in the back. AP: Yeah. Or like those, you have the restaurant on the first floor and the— MR: Residence on the second floor. AP: - resident second floor or something like that, I guess. I don't know. MR: I dunno. We're stretching the metaphor now. AP: We're stretching. Yeah. MR: It's about to break, which is an indication that maybe we should wrap this up. AP: Yep. Yep. MR: Well, hey, Alejo, this has been so great to have you on. Thank you for all you do. I'm so happy that we've connected these many years ago, and so proud of the work you're doing. I just wanna let you know, thank you for all the great work you're doing to move the community forward and to help people, and to encourage people, and just really super happy with the way you're living your life in the world. So thank you for that. AP: Thank you. Thank you. I see it as a privilege and I take it seriously. I want to be able to, even if it's by a small degree, to help somebody's life be better. I have a lot of people who pour out on me and make my life better because they just decided to show up. So I'm showing up, and I hope that it really helps other people, even if it's just a small degree. I feel like that would be a life worth living. MR: That sounds great. Well, thanks. And for anyone who's watching or listening to the show, this is another episode. Until the next episode of Sketchnote Army Podcast, talk to you soon.

In this first episode of season 15, Maggie Appleton shares her career journey from art and anthropology into web design, illustration, and product design for AI research tools that help researchers make sense of information. Maggie and Mike discuss the interesting challenge of living in the era of AI and large language models — how visual thinkers might look at it now — as a new opportunity rather than something to fear. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings, saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Maggie Appleton? Maggie's Origin Story Maggie's current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Maggie Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Maggie's Website Maggie on Twitter Maggie on LinkedIn Maggie on GitHub Maggie on Dribble Maggie's Mastodon Elicit Indie Web Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. A5 Clipboard A5 looseleaf paper Uni-ball Signo Pen iPad Procreate Super Whisper Tips Explore GIFs. Play with Midjourney or DALL E. Explore interactive essays or long-term visual essays. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube, or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production, and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey, everyone. It's Mike and I'm here with Maggie Appleton. Maggie, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you. Maggie Appleton: Hello. Thank you for having me. MR: Yeah, it's quite an honor. Been a big fan of your work, following your gardening site. It's not about gardening, but it's about information gardening. I heard you on my friend Jorge's podcast and really became fascinated and thought you might be a really good candidate for the Sketchnote Army podcast because you operate visually. And, you know, part of what I'm trying to do is continuing to push the boundaries of who we speak with that is more visual oriented and not so much sketchnoting. In that, I have the sense that as we stretch ourselves, we might see ideas in other people's work that's outside of our normal work that could influence our work and take us in new directions. So that's my drive to continually expand the footprint of who we speak with and bringing interesting people to listen to. So with all that tell us who you are and what you do, Maggie. MA: Sure. Well, I'll say I do have a history of sketchnoting, but I currently work as a product designer for a company called Elicit, spelled with an "E", like to elicit something not to be elicit which confuse me. But we are using language models, the new kind of things like ChatGPT and other models similar to that to help scientists and researchers speed up the literature review process, which is usually a very manual kind of a text, reading 10,000 papers to synthesize what science currently says about a particular topic. And so, my current work, I feel like is a little different to my historical work that I think probably relates more to what listeners of this podcast are interested in. But I was an illustrator and a sketchnoter at conferences, and for years have been making visual essays online, which I still do, which are filled with animations and illustrations and handdrawn stuff. And I traditionally trained as an illustrator. So maybe that side of things would be more interesting. I definitely think that all ties into my current work more as an interface and product designer, but it's definitely slightly different to what I used to do. MR: And especially too with all the discussion and, you know, top of mind of ChatGPT and these AI tools that are integrating every place, right. If you see it in Microsoft Word, you know it has arrived, right. I think that intersection is really fascinating. And probably there's concerns, you know, from sketchnoters or illustrators, like, "When will I be replaced by some AI?" I mean, right now, I think it's limited, but I think that that could change. So it might be interesting to talk a little bit about that. MA: Yeah. Yeah. I think that that whole issue of like, "Well, how does this affect working illustrators and designers?" I'm certainly concerned about, and also yeah, just how we relate to them, I think it's a sort of controversial topic in a certain way because it's so loaded with people's livelihoods and emotions around what it means for humans to create versus machines. But it's worth getting into that stuff because it's fascinating as someone who used to make visuals and now is playing with these tools to make visuals. I mean, you can't ignore it, you know? MR: Yeah, yeah. It has to be discussed to some degree. That would be fun to get into if you'd like to. MA: Mm-hmm. MR: I'm really fascinated about your origin story. We of course, always kick off the show with this so that we have a sense of where you came from and how you ended up where you are as both informational and also aspirational for us to say, you know, "If she can do it, I can do it too." Right. That's the kind of sense that I get a lot of times from these. Why don't you let us know how you got—you can go all the way back to when you were a little girl drawing with crayons or whatever you did. If you wanna go that far back, you certainly can. MA: Sure. I suppose it does go that far back in that I was always obsessed with drawing and art and visuals as a child. It first turned to just, you know, art class being my favorite thing and winning terrible art competitions as a child. Although I did once win one by tracing drawings out of books. Won the award and felt like no guilt, but I didn't understand that that was maybe not something you should do. So I was encouraged very young to be like, "Oh, you are visual design kind of arty person." But I was also interested in other things. I didn't go to art school in the end, although I maybe regretted that a bit later. I retrained later on in more visual stuff. But I was also really into politics and I found cultural anthropology in high school and loved that. So I ended up studying that for my undergraduate degree, but always was doing design stuff on the side and I would say web tech stuff. I learned HTML and CSS on Neo pet at age 13, and was very lucky to have parents who were programmers. So they gave me laptops and let me roll free on them. I had a lot of liberty to grow up in the 90s on the web. You know, just immersed in the early web culture. But up to now, I'm able to be both a designer and a developer as a hybrid, and it goes back to just getting into that stuff very early. So I think I had a lot of support across lots of visual domains growing up. Then after I graduated from university, I'd also been, again, building websites on the side, designing logos for people, getting into photography. I was still doing all this in side hustle, you know, how you make money in high school and college. This will sound weird, I didn't know that was a profession, like a serious one. I didn't know you could be an illustrator or a graphic designer. I had never heard of that as a discipline. I didn't have any designers I knew. Nobody at my school really knew anything about design as a career. So I graduated knowing well, I have no idea how to make money. I waitress for a bit and I had this anthropology degree and was just a bit lost. But then was like, "Well, I'll make websites for people because they'll pay me for that until I figure out how to get a real job." I never got a real job. I just did freelance web design— MR: That's great. MA: - from my early 20s onwards. Then started working for digital agencies and creative agencies and realized there was something called interface design, and realized people got paid to do illustration and design full time. Was like, "Oh, great. This is what I'm gonna do. This is now viable as an income source." I stayed in that for the first couple years of my career and then joined a company called EG Ed, which does developer education, maybe in my mid 20s as a full-time illustrator. I had been making illustration work on the side and posting it to Dribble, which was very big back then. Was sort of the site, right, back would Dribble like heydays. That was really wonderful. It was small and supportive and I met with friends through it. It was beautiful place. And so, I was posting illustration work there very regularly. Hand drawn sketch notes stuff, but also very polished Adobe Illustrator. Vector illustrations was my specialty. I would layer in Photoshop. So there was a mix of digital painting and vector work, which was really fun. But anyway, this company that did developer education reached out and they said, "Hey, we make courses online about JavaScript and HTML and CSS and we want you to come do full-time illustration work for us. We need covers for these courses. We want visuals made of the content within them that help explain the concepts." I was like, Oh, perfect. This fits really well." I was getting burnt out on agency work and of demanding clients, and if anyone who's worked at agencies knows. MR: Yeah. Pretty much all you get, right? MA: Yeah. It's quite stressful. So I took this job on, and I ended up staying with this company for five years. Just because the team was wonderful. The CEO was just one of my biggest mentors, Joel Hooks. He's wonderful in supporting me in whatever direction I wanted to grow. So while I was there, I went from illustrator to art director to then getting into UX and product design 'cause that was also an avenue I wanted to explore. But the whole time I was doing these very sketchnote esque, but not necessarily by definition 'cause I wouldn't do them on the spot, they were planned more graphic illustration. MR: Yeah. More illustration. MA: Exactly. But of concepts in the courses that were taught on the site. So I would be trying to explain really difficult technical topics like asynchronous programming or how React works. just these things that are really code heavy, which got me to really learn a lot more about programming. But yeah, I found it fun because you had these super abstract, non-physical concepts and you had to draw things to explain them. MR: Yeah. MA: I had a lot of fun with it and I learned a lot in the practice because I got really into metaphors and metaphor design and how you create physical representations out of abstract ideas. The whole thing, yeah, it was like a bootcamp in visual thinking, I guess. I really had to—and there weren't that many good courses or books to pull on I felt like. I felt like I was making it up as I went. But it taught me a lot. It was just very like, you know, you go back to first principles thinking, I guess. You know, if you are drawing something to do with time, you don't just jump to drawing clocks. You think about, okay time, we talk about it as water. We talk about it as fluid. You go back to language and you find what imagery you can pick out and then just play with physical imagery until you find something that works. I loved that job. I grew up there, I guess, as a designer and illustrator and defined my style. so that probably brings, yeah. And then after that, I had moved into—after four years of doing intensive illustration art direction there, I got really interested in UX and product and switched into that and then moved on to other companies. But I think those years were really my core sketchnoting, illustration, visual design growth phase. Now, I still do it when I write a lot online and I make these visual essays and I still have that skillset to pull on. So I can still just whip out illustrations when I want to, to help explain my work. But it's not like the core thing I do all day as a job anymore. MR: Well, two interesting observations, and it'll be interesting to see how you react to these. Number one, I feel like since you were born, you've been a hybrid. I'm a hybrid as well, so I've got both technical and visual components. I think you probably are even more technical than maybe I am. But that is really fascinating because everything you said about your story, it seemed like you were always having your feet in two worlds, right? MA: Mm-hmm. MR: Even even thinking about doing websites for people on the side because you didn't really realize that that was a thing which then led you to the actual doing that as a profession. But that you've always had this mix of two things. And then the second observation is, I'm really curious about your anthropology degree as it aligns with user interface and research and all those kinds of things. 'Cause that seems like a natural fit to me, but I don't know. Maybe or maybe those two things overlap. And I think observing people in general is really informative, right? MA: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was another one that once I really got into my career and I realized that UX design was a field, I had this moment of where I was starting to read about it and learn about it, and I started just being like, "Hmm, this is like anthropology, but with a different name. MR: Yeah. MA: Yeah. And not that I felt bitter about it, but I was like, "Oh my gosh, nobody told me this was a job when I graduated with this degree and felt just lost and had no clue how to turn it into a useful job." Maybe it would've been six or seven years later when I would've first learned what UX design was and connected the dots of like, "Oh, ethnography and user research and UX." This is all shared skillset, but maybe I think I graduated too early. It was around 2012, 2013. UX design was not a thing back then. It vaguely existed, but not in the way it does now. There were no boot camps. There weren't many books. I think it was just too early. But I love that it came full circle. Like now, a lot of what I studied in school definitely comes back around in terms of practice and theory. And also, in my research and writing, I will always say my degree was not at all useless. It seemed it for a hot minute when I got my graduated, but it really wasn't. Yeah. MR: That's fascinating. In my experience, I had a somewhat similar experience. My dad didn't know what—and I didn't know you could be a designer until I got into college and there was a degree path for that. It was print design back in those days. So he convinced me to go into printing because I had this technical aspect. Dad always had computers around. We weren't afraid of computers. My first job as a graphic designer was also as the system manager because I managed the backups and restored peoples eat and cork files and whatever. So again, you see the parallels between this hybrid. But my technology stuff was more on the printing side. I got really good at understanding printing and how the technology works. As a designer, it influenced my print designs because I knew what would work, what would likely work, and what probably wouldn't work on a press. And then I could go to the press checks and talk with the pressmen and say—and they were all men by the way. Talk with the pressmen and say, you know, "Can we do this?" Or I could talk somewhat intelligently, at least I thought maybe I was an idiot to them, I don't know. But it seemed to help me manage both sides. And it sounds like somewhat similar for you in a slightly different combination of things, visual and technology in a different sense. MA: Yeah. I mean that's incredible that that parallel exists, but I suppose it always has between well, yeah, someone designing the material and the person who operates the technical equipment that like creates that. Because I definitely find that parallel being like an interface product designer. The fact I can program, I think I can write front-end code and I know enough JavaScript that my discussions with developers are very different I think to maybe other designers or the way I work, just from what I've understood of other people's workflows. I just write the code, you know, I'm not gonna do a ton in Figma first and then have some hand off process and like all the details and important stuff gets lost in the middle there. Exactly what's possible and how you could problem-solve or change the design because of what's technically possible or harder or easier. That to me is all the core of the work and the way that I understand that like interface designs used to be programmers. They were the same job, I think back all through up the 90s. I don't know when it really split. Then they became two separate roles. Not that everything got worse, but it changed the way websites and softwares made because there was a split between the design person and the programming person. MR: Would this seem like a fair thing is when an industry, if you wanna call it industry, matures, there's this tendency for roles to really get hyper-defined almost. I just do UI design. I don't even talk about the UX stuff. I've seen that before, right? I just push the pixels and make it look beautiful. Then you have the UX person and you have the research person, and you have the developer and you have to have this. You know, when you separate to all these sub disciplines that well, that means that you have to amplify the communication between those. 'Cause Like you said, that's where stuff gets lost in between and you know, you have to do corrections or whatever the case. In that sense, you had the advantage of knowing that. So on the one hand, developers can't say, "Well, you know, that's too hard." "No, it's not. I made this, or you can do it this way," right. So they can't pull the wool over your eyes. Not that they would, but also gives you the ability, like you said, to take—you're working with the materials in a sense as almost an artist would use a charcoal and paper, right? You get a certain output when you use those two things. In your case, using code in this certain way with these browsers, you can also achieve an output which has some variables. So, I dunno. Now I'm just rambling, But. MA: No, that's great. I mean, I wanna build up that for a second. You are right. It's so interesting, right? When you try to scale up making software, you have to have these specialized roles. I'm thinking huge companies that make sophisticated software, they can't have everyone be a hybrid. So they have to have the researcher and the UI person and the UX person and they break them all up, but then they have all the PMs in the middle or whatever that do the communication. MR: Right. Right. MA: I think I've loved—maybe I'm thinking it's more relevant even just on a personal making stuff for yourself or creativity exploration level. When you understand both the material, you're making something in very intensely, you really know the technical side of everything from charcoal and paint to programming, and you are trying to express ideas through visuals or creatively. Knowing both makes you able to explore in a much more interesting way than I think someone who only knows one side of them. I think it's almost more interesting at the experimentation level, at the push and the boundaries, the doing weird stuff for your side project. Not necessarily professionally. 'Cause I agree that yeah, if you're really building big stuff, you are gonna end up with specialized roles. But there's something magic in the intersection of the two. MR: That might be a good argument for side projects, right? You talked about how side projects are so important to you as you're trying to figure out, "What am I doing here?" MA: Yeah. MR: And it actually became your primary thing because you were exploring, right? You realized, hey, this could be the main thing. And I think for people listening, you know, having little side projects—I do a podcast because I find it interesting and it challenges me to solve all these problems. I'm not gonna quit my day job and just do the podcast. That's not how you do this. But it's made me much more aware. It's built a network of people that I can talk to, and we have all these interesting discussions that are now in the public record that people can be inspired by. So, you know, if you're listening, consider a side project if you've eliminated that because you don't have time. You know, every side project I've ever worked on always ended up coming back in some way to my main work as a designer, right. Because I'm exploring these things and suddenly something comes up, "Hey, can we do t-shirts?" So, "Yeah, I've been goofing around with t-shirt design. Let's use this platform and I've got experience." Suddenly, I can make t-shirts for my team. So that would be a practical application for you. MA: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, I'm pulling in agreement on that. I've had a personal website where I write these essays or like notes. I call it a digital garden. I kind of written a piece about that philosophy. I didn't come up with the term, but I wrote the history of it. My personal website, I genuinely started it just as—well, I wanted to just build something, you know, and I—maybe this was like, God, five years ago and not even that long. Obviously, the first part of my career, I didn't really have a blog or website of any sort up. I had a portfolio, but not somewhere I was writing and publishing work. Not that it's taken off, but I have a pretty good readership at this point. But every single job that I've had for the past couple years has come through people reading my work first and understanding how I think and understanding how I do design. It would be immeasurable to talk about the career benefits I've had from having this website and writing in public and putting my work in public and writing regularly and just showing people how I think in a very practical public way. I just get, you know, invited to speak at conferences and invited to events and make new friends and really get way better job offers than I'm qualified to have kind of thing, all just because so few people really do put their work in public aand share it. And the ones that do, are perceived to be more skilled or qualified and unique, which I don't think they are, but it does just bring you so many benefits. MR: Yeah. I mean, that's another argument. I've maintained a blog since 2003 or something like that. And in the peak of when I was doing more independent—I used to do logo and icon work, I would describe in real detail like, "Okay, what was the challenge? How do we deal with it?" All my sketches would get posted with all this descriptive. So it was a pretty long post. I've heard on more than one occasion customers who they looked at those and hired me because they could see, exactly what you said, they could see the way I thought about problems, and then knew that that was a fit for what they wanted. So I think that's one of the advantages of course. MA: Mm-Hmm. MR: I mean, it's another argument I think too. Don't put all your eggs in a, you know, social media basket as we've seen. Social media platforms can go nuts, and they might become radioactive and maybe you don't wanna be radiated. So it's probably good to have some place that you own. Your domain, your space that you control. If you're not like Maggie who's really good at coding, maybe it's a Squarespace site or a something else, site at WordPress. Just something where you have total control over it so that if things change, there's this home base that people can at least find you and get your unfiltered and original thoughts, right? MA: Yeah. Yeah. I'm definitely a huge fan of, there's a community called the IndieWeb. Do you know them? MR: No. No. MA: Oh, they're wonderful. If you just Google IndieWeb or your listeners should, their whole thing is just promoting people having their own independent websites up and you can—I'm publishing to them and syndicating to social media. Publishing stuff out to Twitter and Mastodon, but from something you own and control. They have a wonderful wiki full of tools and advice and support and meetups. They're witty, they're fantastic. I'm such a big fan of the IndieWeb. They're just trying to say, we should all have our own independent websites and we shouldn't be behest to whatever everyone's doing. MR: Yeah. I have many Indie blogs that I read still regularly. I didn't know that there was an organization promoting. That's really cool. I would like to go there and probably find some tools that could benefit me. That's our little PSA for today is, you know, get yourself a website, even if it's a Tumblr or something to get a space for yourself. Because if you rely on other networks, they have different motivations than you may have. Which most of the time you don't realize until things go crazy. So, anyway. MA: Yeah. MR: Well, it's really fascinating to hear this transition from where you came from and how—I really love it that you studied this topic, anthropology, which at the time you're thinking, "Why did I waste these years on." But now it's coming back to be beneficial, and that's really cool. And it might be interesting now to get into the discussion about large language models, AI and kind of the work you're doing as a product. Many of us might think, "Well, it's ChatGPT, it's a chat interface. How complex could that be?" Or it's, "I do a prompt and an image comes back." But I think it's a lot more complex than people realize dealing with that. And also thinking, when the tool comes back with it, like how do we represent it? Those kinds of questions, I imagine you must be working on. MA: Yeah. Yeah. My job right now is fascinating. It's challenging some days in a way that's quite stressful. Because language models, right? This brand-new thing. I mean, they've technically been around for about four or five years, but you know, they exploded onto the scene about a year ago when ChatGPT came out, which was this very accessible chat-based interface for an underlying piece of technology that isn't necessarily chat shaped. But it was a very kind of easy, familiar interface that a lot of people just kind of caught onto, right? They went, "Okay, I know how to use this." But there are many ways we can use language models as a backend to different interfaces. It's not too different to computers in general and programming. And programming is a type of AI in a certain way. You know, you can do logic and you can say if this, then that. And we've, you know, had this artificial intelligence with us for a long time. But the language models are a kind of totally new scale of it. Just a much more capable, much more complex, much more mysterious tool that we've invented. In my talks on it, I try to describe how they're different. And I say they're a bit like very advanced language calculators. You can be like, okay, we have taken all the words humans have ever published to the internet and condensed them down into a model which we use. It's called a neural network. And then you can, you know, ask it to say things back to you or you can query it in certain ways, being like, okay, if you take the word queen and you minus the word man, you get the word king. There's like these weird math calculations you can do on it that show you how language is related, which is fascinating. They're also good for other things, right? You can get them to read 10,000 words and summarize it, sometimes fairly accurately. That's like, wow, that's totally practical in a way that like just chat interactions aren't. So the way that we're exploring it at the company I work for, Elicit, is this focused on helping researchers and scientists, so people who have to spend lots and lots of time reading scientific publications, understanding them, figuring out how they relate to their research and using it to plan future research or future scientific experiments. And language models are quite well suited to help synthesize a lot of this information. Help them extract information outta PDFs and just say like, okay, ask a question to these PDFs and get a very accurate answer out of them. So we're focused on that. So it's not a chat interface, it's essentially a big table because that's what academics work in a big Excel table. You are collecting papers in it, and then you're extracting data out of each paper. You're saying, "Okay, given these 20 papers, I want to know, if you are a medical scientist, what dosage did they give the patients? How many patients did they test? What gender and age were the patients?" And you're pulling these out into a big Excel table. So you understand all the important information in these papers without having to sit there and scroll through every PDF. Usually, they're copying and pasting these answers out manually. That's the current process that people do. MR: Wow. MA: Yeah. It's a very narrow workflow. It's one specific thing we're helping people do. It's not the chat approach of we help you do whatever, here's an open input. It's much more specific. So it's probably more like traditional interface design. It just with a much more powerful backend to it. MR: That's interesting. Would you say that you've approached these researchers, I guess maybe for lack of a better word? MA: Mm-hmm. MR: Is that you've found out what is the format that they like and fitted the AI to the format? That way, in other words, it's not a new thing they have to learn, it's the thing they already use with amplified powers. Maybe that might be a way to describe it? MA: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We're very much on the side of we want to speed people up. We're not replacing any human tasks here. I mean, we're trying to make them faster, right? If it used to take you a hundred hours to read these papers, can we get you to do it in 20 minutes? Very much on the side of helping people double check things, be very accurate because that's a problem with language models. Just trying to be like, how do we do this in a way that, you know, science needs to be very rigorous. So what's the rigorous approach to using it. MR: There was something that struck me as you described, what you were doing. Taking this massive information and trying to boil it down to the whatever facts and information. Seems to me like large language models are really good at taking factual information as long as you give guidelines to it and narrowing it down. I think the challenge for large language models, at least in my experience, is generating new stuff because it's just got limited. You've heard the term hallucinations where I found that if I ask the Chat GPT to write a too long of a descriptive, probably about three quarters of the way through, it's like making stuff up. Then you got the problem of reliability. You can't just copy and paste that and say that you wrote it. You gotta do a little bit more than that. So, anyway. MA: Yeah. Exactly. I think a lot of the current products and tools that are trying to put language models into the world are focusing on this generation, right? Like, write me an essay or write me a paper, which I just don't think we're anywhere near accuracy or reliability or sophistication levels to have them do that. So it's too early to even attempt that. But they can take—you know, you can give them a large amount of existing data and ask them questions about that data a bit a very advanced search algorithm. A very accurate advanced search algorithm. Like, given these 10,000 PDFs, which one of them mentions this name? That kind of thing. Or which one of these like talks about a certain theme and then they can do quite advanced search to find those papers. It's a totally different task to just have it, given it's from its memory, you know, from everything it's learned from the internet. Just like, "Write me an essay." It makes things up. MR: Interesting. Interesting. there was a thought that came to mind. It's escaped me now, so I'll probably let it go. Maybe it'll come back later, around large language models condensing information. Do you find that specifically in this case, does it do pretty well because you've given it such structured bounding that it does pretty well with reliability and accuracy, whereas, you know, the opinion is, well, you know, ChatGPT, it's gonna hallucinate on us. Is it because it's leaning towards its strengths as what it can do is condensing existing information and that point doesn't have enough open space to make things up? Is that generally speaking true? MA: Yeah, that's about right. Our approach to it is we combine language models with traditional programming. There's some things that they're not well suited to do. They can do very well-defined, like you said, narrow scoped things. If you just say, "Read these paragraphs and rank them to relevance to this question." They're quite good at that kind of thing. I think when they fall down is when you try to give them too big of a task that would require too much sophisticated human reasoning or research and knowledge to really complete well. So we try to give them very tiny tasks and then we string those together with other programming I guess functions is what we would call it, or actions. We'll use traditional word search to find things and we'll use traditional sorting and ranking algorithms, but in combination with these language models for specific tasks that we think they can do well. MR: I see. MA: It's not like a one call is what we would usually call it for ChatGPT, right? You ask one question, you get one answer instead it's chaining together lots and lots of small language model tasks. MR: I think that goes to the old adage, right, "To a guy with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." MA: Mm-hmm. Right. MR: If you take this AI and you think it can do everything right, you're gonna be disappointed at some point. So it sounds to me like you're fight, like what does this tool do? Well, it can do those things and then there's other things it can't do, but there's other tools that will achieve that. So let's blend them together and make a combined tool that does the things that we want to. MA: Exactly. Exactly. MR: Interesting. MA: It's putting them as another tool in the programming toolkit and not the final answer to everything. You know, the final tool that we'll use to do all our Google searches and all our medical science work and, you know, now people are trying to use it for graphic design, which is a little bit of a different model on the backend, but still it's like, yeah, you're trying to use it for two complex things and you're trying to be like, "Well, it can do everything." It's like, "Well, it really can't." It's not even good at the things we're trying to make it do. I think at the hype is so far beyond the reality unintelligible 00:32:28at this point. MR: Oh yeah, I think so too. The question that I lost came back to me and it's, this is totally like, you know, blue sky question, but like, so we know what Google search is. Now, we don't know what the algorithm is, but basically it has an algorithm that uses to find the most relevant stuff. It used to be how many people were linked to things was the old days. Now it's who knows what it does. That's a known thing. It's been around for a while. Why do you think—or maybe the question is, do you think that the large language models are so good at taking lots of information and summarizing it, which Google searching can't do? MA: Mm-hmm. MR: Is it because of the structure? Like you talked about a neural network. I assume that, to me that says that's modeled on the way our brains we think kind of work in our structure. Is that why it's better at that kind of an activity? MA: Yeah. So neuron networks are based on human brains. That was the original inspiration for the design behind them. Although they don't, you know, work exactly like human brains 'cause We don't really understand brains that well. MR: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. MA: Yeah. We weren't able to do that. But that's the idea is they have these neurons that weight different information and then group them together probably in the same way our brain does. If you think of, you know, you hear one thing or you smell one thing and suddenly a whole different idea or memory comes back to you. We're very good at associative memory, associative linking. It's a little bit like that. We have built a system where things have mathematical relationships to each other, how similar they are in a way that's much better than we've had before. If you imagined language models having just an enormous brain of some or neural network the words like king, queen, prince, those are all similar. They're in the same area, royalty. But then you're gonna have things you wouldn't expect, like you know, the band queen might be somehow related to that, but in every direction, just think of every associated link you could possibly make all embedded in this model, which is what makes it kind of crazy and fascinating. So it's interesting with web search, right? The way Google's traditionally done, as you've mentioned, right? Backlinking, some legitimacy scores. You know, they do read the content and they try to judge, "Does this answer the question or not?" But in a more old school programming way that didn't have power of neural networks. And we assume they're rebuilding it or improving it 'cause Google has pioneered most of this AI researchers. They have been the last to implement it, which is strange. But they should be able to do a very different approach to web search that makes things much more relevant, show up and that aren't SEO spend and be able to do summary. I mean, they're trying, they have borrowed their chat bot, but honestly, it's quite good. But it should be a really powerful search engine for the web, because it should be able to do this associative linking between every bit of content on a page to really give you relevant results that aren't just someone SEO hacking their way up with keywords. MR: Right. You might say, well, if you like this, then you might like these other things, which is a real common sales thing, right? I think about Amazon doing that. I've noticed, I think Amazon is using AI, it's more of a static. I've noticed when I go to a page and I look at the reviews, for example, there's a descriptive at the top that I'm noticing. It's not only one. It says, most people think that this tool is, you know, really great, but they don't like that it's too heavy or whatever the—so it's obviously—I doubt there's a person doing this. There's some tool that's pressing all these reviews and giving you an overview of that before you dive into the mess. MA: Yeah. I noticed that too on Amazon. It is recent. It must have been the last couple months. MR: It's a couple months. Yeah. MA: Yeah, yeah. But that's a super useful use case in an interface, right? You don't wanna read 800 reviews and you can't. You wanna be like, "Listen, if most people mention these breaks in a few months, just tell me." MR: Yeah. I mean, you know, the tool that you're working on, I could see that being as a tool that an individual would use for shopping, right? Go to Amazon, I'm looking for this, can you summarize what are the best. You think about New York Times bought Wirecutter, well, you could like do a wire cutter tool, right? That says go on all the internet and tell me the best pair of shoes for these specific—I wanna go hiking and it's gotta be waterproof. Suddenly it would narrow down and give you not only the results, but then read through all the reviews and explain the pros and cons. Somebody's probably already working on something like that, I suspect. MA: Yeah. There are a couple companies working on essentially that kind of tooling that I'm really excited about, but I still think they're at least a year away releasing something stable in public. But there are definitely people working on this problem, which I'm so happy about. Even for the last month, I've been starting trying to plan a wedding and I've been telling people this is the perfect use case for language models because it's the most tedious, complex task. You are just— MR: Oh, it is. MA: - crawling through weird websites. You're trying to put it in this big spreadsheet. No, you can't find anyone's budget. You can't find anyone's phone number. I was like, "I just need AI to do this. Why am I doing this." MR: There you got an idea for a software tool, right? The bride's AI, or something like that. MA: I know it's got big money. I'm not gonna do it, but someone else should. MR: Yeah. It's in a boardroom someplace probably being pitched right now, so. MA: Yep. Yep. MR: Well, I don't wanna spend too long on LLM, in language models and AI, but it's a really fascinating topic. I think, you know, maybe not everybody's thinking about it. I'm really curious about how it impacts sketch noting and visual imagery, because I haven't really played much with Midjourney. That's a place I need to explore. But I did for a month buy OpenAI thing, and I tried the DALL E, I think it is, and I asked it, I said, okay, how would I test this to see what it would do? I said, "Create a sketch note from Abraham Lincoln's address," whatever the famous address was. It was weird. It came back with an image and it had pictures of Lincoln and some of the things he said, but it was totally nonsensical. It was totally useless. I mean, as a sketch noter—I haven't tried Midjourney. Maybe it can do better at this. It seems like it can approximate the style of it, I guess, but part of why people hire sketch noters or graphic recorders to go and sit, you know, like you said, you did these where you're processing information. I mean, I guess technically an LLM could do that, right? I mean, that seems like a strength, but maybe the outputs still disconnected. It just seemed like that's a complex task. Like you talked about, you're limited to these narrow tasks. Maybe there's someone that could put it all together and do something like that. But I don't know, that's an unknown. I'm just sort of now rambling. MA: No, no, no. I feel maybe I'm in a similar place to you. I played with Midjourney a lot. I got early X to the beta and I was obsessed with it for a while because it was mostly—it definitely has ethical issues and copyright issues. MR: Sure. MA: But just as a thing to go play with. I think it is worth people who are illustrators or graphic designers just doing that because you are able to query essentially every imagery put on the internet so far. It was the best game ever for a week until I lost interest. But you would just go and be like, "Okay, show me rubrics cubes as if they're growing underwater and they're made of algae or something." And it would just give you gorgeous images of this thing, and you are like, "Oh my God, what's the best game? Just, you know, take X and Y combined, add a weird style to it. It was just like an infinite fun Pictionary game or something, like a reverse Pictionary. I'm not sure what the analogy is, but, it was so addictive. As someone who has spent their life making images to be able to just summon whatever you want. Obviously, not in the way you would draw it or you would imagine it, it's like querying someone else's visual memory, was fascinating. I do think it's worth playing with them, but I'm on the same page as you are. I have to make visual images as part of my job. For just even like promotional pages or branding or my own essays. I have tried a few times to prompt something like Midjourney to get what I want for a conference talk slide, but it just fails every time. No matter how long I spend going through cycles of prompting, I know what I want and it can't make it, and it certainly can't do my style. We're not at a place right now where I think they're actually that useful. MR: Yeah. That was the same feeling I had. I had to use DALL E and I have a newsletter that I write every week at work. It was the hundredth episode, so I thought, would it be fun to do a DALL E illustration and see what does it come up with? And it was painfu. It seemed to forget what it did before. So I would give it a modification, like, "Oh, spell episode on the bottom." And then it would totally change the design. "No, I don't wanna change the design. I just wanna add this thing." It's not smart enough to maintain the past and modify. My experience was frustrating. Now, maybe there's tools that are better at this. I don't know, but I just have a feeling, like you said, it's a maybe too complex of a task to do both the processing and the imagery and connecting in that altogether is just too far away. Which maybe is encouraging for sketch noters and visual thinkers. I don't know. MA: Oh, I would pay attention to what—I haven't personally used them, but I've seen some demos of this. The stuff Adobe is doing is quite interesting. MR: Yes. MA: Because things like Midjourney and DALL E, I definitely believe text is not the right input form for drawing because that's crazy. All of us when we sketch, we begin by making shapes or, you know, sometimes you might think of language to use metaphors, but you are really playing with physical forms. Can I make this communicate the right thing and use the right, you know contrast and scale and everything to really make this image work. So you need a canvas and you need a paintbrush and you need vector tools. The AI could maybe be integrated into it in certain ways, but in a more like, find and replace or move this, or, you know, improve the color and contrast on this. But not in a way that's like, "I'm gonna type words and you're gonna give the exact composition I want." It's not gonna happen. MR: Yeah, I think, you know, probably the most useful thing I've found for the imagery generation things is like, I'm stuck on something and I'll say, "Show me 20 ways this could be visualized." Or like you said, you know, I want you know, Rubics cubes made of algae, right. You could generate this now, you know, I think of it as like me searching Google for icon ideas, right? I wouldn't take the icon one-to-one. I would say, oh, that's interesting. What if I bent this little thing and I twisted that and I turned it this way? You know, I would put a little my own twist on it or my perspective on it. That could be a valuable tool just as a way to break out or maybe think really weird, get some weird ideas and maybe that spurs you in a new direction as a assistive tool, right. Not so much like, well what I type in there, it's just kinda gonna slap it into my sketch note. MA: Exactly. MR: Well, that probably doesn't work, right? It's for many different reasons, not least of which is the ethical part of it, I suppose. But, I think— MA: Yeah. I mean, I was gonna say all the references. I don't know if you've tried it for this, like there have been one or two times where I know what I wanna draw and usually I would go to Google to get references and I've tried Midjourney and I've been like, "Oh, that actually kind of works." MR: Oh, interesting. MA: You know, I'm just querying it for a generic, like give me a vase or something, or just give me aerobics skip, something where I'm like, "You'll be able to do this." MR: Yeah. I mean I do that all the time with like illustration projects where I'll say, I don't know, can't think of anything at the moment. Like, "Show me a Stickley chair," right? Well, that's a physical thing that existed in time and has a certain—so, you know, Google that, I don't know why you couldn't also Midjourney and you could show it in three quarter view with, you know, light from the left at sunset or, you know, whatever the prompt is. And it would probably give you a sense of that. Now, I guess you'd have to question like, how accurate would a Stickley chair look like if you have to have a Stickley chair? Maybe the Google search is better because you would probably get photographs where Midjourney might, you know, give you seven fingers or whatever the problem had. You know, you couldn't a hundred percent trust it would be 95 percent, I don't know, something like that. MA: Yeah, exactly. You're gonna get a slightly weird version of reality with any of these generators. So maybe like you said, better for creative exploration or just breaking outta your box, and then cross referencing to Google if you really need to for it to be accurate as a reference. MR: So it's basically describing what you're talking about with your tool, which is we don't rely on one tool to do everything. We mix and match these capabilities, you know, based on what they do best, which, you know. MA: Exactly. Yeah. MR: This has really been fascinating. I have the sense that, you know, Midjourney and DALL E and even Chat GPT and the power that they have. For most regular people who aren't technologists, it just almost seems magical. And I think it can almost be a little bit scary, right? 'Cause You don't understand. Maybe even for the technologists that think they know, like sometimes they're surprised at what it can do. So there's this both excitement and trepidation tied to these tools. And I think, you know, sketch noters and visual thinkers probably need to address this because we tend to be early to problems. So I think it's an opportunity more than a challenge to find ways that it can be integrated into your workflow in the right places, right. So. MA: Yeah, exactly. It's one of those where like, it's not going away. AI development is frankly going quite quickly at the moment, but even everyone in the industry is still just reeling from how fast developments are coming out which is quite overwhelming. But they're not going anywhere and they're just gonna get more sophisticated. It doesn't help to shun them or say, "I'm not gonna engage with this." Yeah. You have to engage at some point. It's just you wanna do it now or later. MR: Yep. I guess for those who are listening, I mean, this is fascinating to me. I hope it was interesting to you. Obviously, Maggie and I are both into it, so I think it's something, you know, to be aware of and to play with. And maybe that's your side gig is just going to Midjourney and fooling around and seeing what it generates. And maybe there's a way that can be integrated into the work you do. I think these tools have value. It's a matter of finding out where they fit into your process so. Well, so this is typically the point where I switch to tools. Now I know you, you say you still do some visual stuff. Are you primarily digital or do you still do physical stuff as a trained illustrator? I suspect there's still some analog tools that you maybe enjoy, maybe you like getting with paper and pen to get away from your screens? Like me, I don't know. MA: I guess I was always quite digital. I went to iPad quite quickly. Well, back in the days I was on like a huge Wacom before iPads really got good. And they were just enormous and you couldn't ever carry them anywhere. I still definitely carry around a little clipboard and a pen everywhere I go. It's funny, I use it mostly for thinking, I mean like, as you know. I do this is with sketchnoting, like diagramming and arrows and mapping out the shape of something physically on paper, especially when I'm trying to write essays or put together—you know, I'm researching something and I'm trying to figure out the shape of the narrative, that's when I'm really like sketching little things and doodling and drawing diagrams. And I cannot do it on a screen because most apps, of course are linear and text-based. MR: Yeah. Yeah. MA: I need to do it physically with my body drawing on a piece of paper. So it's incredibly basic. But I have Uni-ball Signo pens, like the one pen I will use and just a little carry around clipboard where I can like sketch note things and then throw the paper away. But it's the process of thinking with it I still love. MR: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Uni-ball Signo is a great pen. MA: Yeah. MR: It's a great pen and you can get it at pretty much any shop. You know, the back of a bodega in New York City, you'd probably find a pack of those hanging on a rack someplace. So if yours fails, you can find one probably almost any place, which is a huge advantage. And then you do have, looks like a half A4 sheet little clipboard there. Is that? MA: Yeah, A5. Okay. And I just buy loose leaf A5 paper, and then I clip it to this tiny A5 clipboard because then I'm not precious about the pages I found with notebooks. I was always worried of ruining them. So I can draw anything and I can keep it or I can tack it away. And it's like flexible. I can draw things for other people and hand it to them. I've just found it's like the best system that works. MR: Nice and flexible. MA: Yeah. MR: I mean, you know, even you could take photos of whatever you drew. If you wanted to store it in some way for future research, to bring it back even if the original is gone. MA: Mm-hmm. MR: That's really cool. I did a teaching event in Philadelphia and we had them produce these half letter size card stock. I love those. They're just like the perfect size. It's like the size of a notebook, but it's a loose sheet. It's a little bit thicker, so I could use a Sharpie, it wouldn't bleed too badly. That was really great. I never thought to attach it to a clipboard. That's a really interesting idea. MA: Yeah. Well, my partner said it's the nuttiest thing ever that everywhere I go I have this clipboard in my bag, but I just like pull out to sketch something or take notes. It's just like the biggest teacher's cut. You just have a good tiny clipboard all the time. MR: What about your digital tools? You talked about Wacom. I've had one of those too. They're not very portable, let's say. Talk about your iPad and what tools you like. MA: I have one of the big iPads. It is wonderful. I use Procreate. It's the best iPad app. I do love drawing in there. It's funny though, there's a digital tool I'm kind of obsessed with at the moment that I'm writing a piece on. It's very top of mind. I guess I'm trying to think of whether it's really visual expression, but I think it is part of the process for me. There's been much a ton of advancements in voice to text technology. You being able to talk and it being able to transcribe it perfectly and fast and immediately. It's called Whisper. It's from OpenAI, it's one of their things. And again, it used neural networks to learn how people sound and translate that to text in a way that's way more accurate than we had before. I mostly talk at my computer anymore. I don't actually type in that much, so I just use voice and it's way faster. So for writing and giving out first drafts or throwing around ideas, you just talk and it all transcribes perfectly. And I've just found this has been such a change in my writing process. And then, which then becomes diagrams or drawings, but as part of writing. That's currently my favorite digital tool. It's like this new voice to text stuff. MR: You basically talk your article or whatever the idea is. Then I imagine you probably go back to an editor and then, oh, like that's dump, take that out or tweak that, type that, you're now modifying everything to get to your final result. MA: Exactly. Exactly. It's very much like just getting out the first draft or the first ideas. You know, when you have this idea and you're quickly trying to type it down or write it down, it's so much easier to just say it. And, you know, voice notes are cumbersome or you have to go play them back and then transcribe it again yourself. But it makes such a difference to just be able to quickly say your idea out loud and it's perfectly captured the way that you've said it. I just found it's been such a difference in low friction for people who are trying to get started writing or can't find time to write. It speeds up writing a lot. MR: I think there's people too, like podcasters and other voice people, they don't like writing or they don't feel natural doing it. They feel really natural speaking where if that's you, where you're more of a talker than a writer, that might be a great way to get it in. I guess the nice thing is it would capture your voice and sort of the way that you speak and all those things in a pretty accurate way that then when you go back and edit it, it's almost like you're listening to Maggie speaking to you. If you knew your voice, you could then imagine when I read this, you know, you talking. That's a really interesting side effect too. If you're not good at writing the way you speak, this might be a really interesting way to capture that essence, or at least more than you can now, so. MA: Yeah. Yeah. MR: Interesting. Whisper AI is for those. MA: Whisper is the main model behind it, but there's an app called Super Whisper. If you Google that, that's the other thing. MR: Superwhisper. MA: I think it's for Mac and Windows. I think it's really good. It's a small app, it's very simple, but it makes it super easy to, to do it. MR: Wow. Really cool. Any other tools that you'd like to share with people listening that help you? MA: Do I have that many more? iPad and Procreate, it seems so simple, but it's all I really use for illustration at this point, and visuals. I've gotten really into GIFs over this last year, especially in essays. I'll draw a small thing and just make a few frames of it. Then on desktop, like turn that into a little GIF and I've just been like, "Oh, this is such a lightweight way to just add a little life to an animation or an illustration," I mean. I've loved doing that. I had never really thought before about how flexible and portable GIFs are, like video on the web is— MR: Yeah. Play every place. MA: GIFs just, you know, it just loops and you can just make a few small animations and it opens you up the world of animation. MR: I think, I remember going to your site and it was the digital gardening article. Am I right in saying, I was sitting there reading and all of a sudden something moved? Like what happened? I thought there was a little animation of a butterfly or something. Am I right in remembering that? Animation on that piece? MA: I remember one of those might have. MR: Maybe it was a different piece. MA: Yeah. Some of them do have. I think it only started doing it in the last year. That one might have. Yeah. MR: There was one of them. MA: I had put scroll ones on, so as you scroll, things animate. MR: Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was really cool because it looked like a static image, but as I interacted with it started having life to it, I thought, oh, that's really cool. It's really subtle. It's not flashing type or something that's giving me epileptic seizures or anything like that. MA: Yeah, That's the most GIFs. MR: A really well done, really tastefully done animation that gave it some interest and made me smile a little bit, Right. It made me a little bit happy just to see that like, "Oh, that's cool." MA: Yeah. I wanna get better at that stuff. Especially the scroll interactions or cursor interactions. They're so simple, but you can add just a little bit of movement or information or life to an image. If on the web you can layer in these kind of interaction bits. MR: Yeah. That's pretty cool. Well, definitely, if you're listening, we're gonna have show notes. Go to go to Maggie's site and read her essays. They're excellent. I've enjoyed every one of them. So let's shift now to tips. Since you have visual background, but maybe it's more we can open it up to whatever you'd like. I had just asked for guests to give three tips for people that are listening. I usually frame it as imagine somebody's stuck and they just need some inspiration, what would you say to that person? So, I mean, you can take that or any kind of tips that you'd like to share would be great. MA: Sure, sure. Hopefully, it won't be too repetitive from what we've talked about, but now I'm like, "Oh, these are top of mind things we just said people do. MR: Yeah, yeah. MA: One is definitely, yeah, playing with GIFs. I just had never thought about 'em before. To me they were like, oh, them just mees. And really just reading a basic amount about how GIFs work and the technology behind them, and like how you can make simple ones just maybe be like, oh, this is such a fruitful medium that I think most people don't explore. So for someone that makes images already just trying to make a GIF, it's like probably gonna open you up to be like, oh, I never thought about, you know, a three sequence image or like a little interactive image. Somebody wants a little new medium to play with. Second, I'd say we already touched on this, but if you haven't played with Midjourney or DALL E, I'd prefer Midjourney. I think it does more interesting. MR: Yeah. I think it's little bit better. Yeah. MA: Yeah. it's kind of worth just paying for a single month and then just exploring and treating it like a game. Not thinking you're gonna make final artwork out of this or use anything. Just be like, I'm playing a video game right now, and I can query this just to show me anything I want. And I love just being like, noun plus noun plus style plus verb or something, you know? Like Mad Libs, but with this crazy image memory machine that's just somehow synthesized all the images you've already made. So it's just wild to play with. I think it is worth understanding what's possible in it and what's not possible. MR: I think it's good too that you think of it as a game. So you kind of give it—the way you approach it is as much important as the tool itself because then your expectations lower, you know? Your opportunity for being, you know, surprised go up. Like if, "Oh, I have to achieve this and it's gotta be done by Friday." That changes the way you approach a tool. Then just, "Hey, let's just see what it can deliver. Let's play." Which is good. MA: Yeah, exactly. I think just playing with that might be fruitful for ideas or new styles, but might just be a fun time where you kind of learn to understand what these are possible for is like move forward in the world of AI generation. Then lastly, I mean, I kinda wanna I encourage people to—I don't know, I assume your audience would know about this stuff. What I think of is like interactive visual essays. Have you seen like the stuff the New York Times does that's like very rich scrolling beautiful animations as you go. MR: Mm-hmm. MA: I've been obsessed with these for a long time. These have been around for ages. We call it scrolly telling for a minute. But this long form writing that is richly supported by visuals and animations and it's all intertwined. The writing and the images all go together. Just like in sketch notes. There's no kind of separation of me. MR: Blended. MA: Yeah. And ones on the web that do this, I think are especially magical because you get that interactivity and you can hover and scroll and they can react to that. Exploring those—I just don't think there's enough of this on the web right now. And I'm kind of like, maybe it's hard, maybe it's too complex. There's a medium for people to work in. But going and exploring some of these interactive essays or long form visual essays, I think is one way to really open up your practice to think about how you could like write a piece and then integrate images into it or like add animation into it. I'm trying to do this much more, so I'm kind of pushing on this at the moment that everyone is into writing and they're into writing words and just words. And I'm like, you should have an image every paragraph, or you should have, you know, something that flows through all these words. I think blending words and images that when things get really interesting, not just in comic book form, but we could be doing this in a whole new way on the web. MR: Yeah. Even in a low-tech way. I could see that happening where especially people listening to this sketch note or visual thinkers, where you could have the written text and then based on that do illustrations or sketch notes or whatever you wanna call it. All they would have to be, you could make them full with a lot of these tools will allow that. So you get to this point and suddenly, you know, you get this full width image that sort of takes up and you have to pass through it, right. If you think about it As a scrolling thing. It doesn't have to be complex. You don't have to do crazy animations, just bold imagery and text, which the text you choose, the size of the text, all those things can make it a really compelling thing and tell a story. So it's definitely approachable by regular people with just like a Squarespace or whatever, or WordPress, you can produce these things with a little bit of exploration. So interesting. MA: Yeah. But most of the ones on my site aren't technically complex at all. There. Static image, just, just intertwined with the words or small doodles, like as breakers in between paragraphs. There's only a handful that really are more technically complex, I'd say. MR: It's interesting that you don't need really much. Just a little bit really can give it the spice and flavor and totally change the perception. It doesn't have to be crazy. That crazy project can just be a few little tidbits in the right places, which is pretty cool. Everybody can do it. Everybody can do it. MA: Mm-hmm. MR: Well, this has been really great. Thanks Maggie. It's been so good to have you on the show. Tell us what is the website we should go to? Are there social media places where you hang out the most? Those kinds of things where people could go and see your work. And we'll of course make show notes and collect all these things for you as well. MA: Great. Okay. Yeah, maggieappleton.com is my website where I write and publish things. I do spend a lot of time on Twitter still until it dies, which will happen— MR: May be coming soon, who knows. MA: Yeah, exactly. And my handle is Mappletons, so like M Appleton S, on there, but it's linked on my website. And then if you're a researcher or a scientist elicit.com is, is the company I work for. It's worth checking out, but it's really like for maybe intense researchers. I think other people might be like, What is this complex table thing you're trying to use? MR: Yeah. Interesting. Well, you know, I'm always surprised at who Elicit is and who's in this community. I know several physicists that are in this community that use sketchnoting all the time. MA: Oh, cool. MR: I never lower my expectations for who might be here. You might be surprised there might be some people in this community that like, "What, you make that? And then they'll sign up, right, Or whatever. MA: Yeah. Yeah. MR: Well, thanks so much for all the work you do. I'm really impressed with the work that you've done and your approach and your attitude. So thank you for your contribution to the world. I appreciate it and I wanted to let you know that. And I think other people appreciate it too. So, thank you. MA: Thank you so much for having me. This is a wonderful chance to chat and I love the whole community you've built here. I feel it's been following you up a decade at this point. So I appreciate this exists. MR: Well, you're so welcome and we're happy to have you as part of it. So for everyone who's listening or watching, this is another episode. Until next episode, talk to you soon.

In this final episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast season 14, we’ve gathered all the tips from 9 fantastic visual thinkers to inspire you! Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings — any time you like. You can nudge the curve of a line, swap out one brush for another, or change stroke thickness and color at any stage of your drawing — saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need — large or small. Never worry about fuzzy sketchnotes again. Concepts is a powerful, flexible tool that’s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH “Concepts” in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Dr. Bryan Vartabedian Ingrid Lill Jono Hey Elizabeth Chesney Luke Kelvington Lena Pehrs Rev Andy Gray Ashton Rodenheiser Gary Kopervas Outro Links Dr. Vartabedian’s 33 Charts Newsletter Ingrid Lill’s Website Jono Hey’s Sketchplanations Website Elizabeth Chesney’s Website Luke Kelvington on LinkedIn Lena Pehrs’ Website Rev Andy Gray’s Website Ashton Rodenhesier’s Website Gary Kopervas’ Website 1. Dr. Bryan Vartabedian’s Tips Be Intentional. Look for a role model. Keep it simple, keep it clean. 2. Ingrid Lill’s Tips Message first. Use your drawing to communicate. Keep it simple. Experiment. Use your art on your everyday use. 3. Jono Hey’s Tips The first draft is always perfect. Keep it simple. Keep going. 4. Elizabeth Chesney’s Tips There is no standard. Create playbooks or scrapbooks of your work. Get away from your desk. Take a break. 5. Luke Kelvington’s Tips Practice and take courses. Use tools to perfect your work. Share your projects. It's okay to wait to be inspired. 6. Lena Pehrs’ Tips Explore metaphors by taking creative or poetry classes. Get good structure in your drawing. Try and change format. Have some fun. Play with children. Draw with them. 7. Rev Andy Gray’s Tips Practice using long-form, business-based YouTube videos. Network with other people. Photograph your work and link to it. Practice the "Something about" technique. 8. Ashton Rodenheiser’s Tips However you need to create it, do it. Cliches are okay. Don't get into the comparing mode. When you are intimidated, you can instead flip it and turn it into inspiration. Have clean nice letters. 9. Gary Kopervas’ Tips Do something and share it. If you want to learn something, draw it because you have to process the information to understand it. Share your work with people who inspire you, you never know where all that interaction might lead. Get on someone else's radar. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off!

In this episode, Gary Kopervas shares how drawing and writing freed his imagination and got reactions from others. He’s built on his early skills to become a cartoonist, copywriter, creative director, and brand consultant. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Gary Kopervas Origin Story Gary Kopervas's current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Gary Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Gary's LinkedIn Gary's Facebook Gary's Instagram Gary's Website Brainstorming by Dave Gray, Sunni Brown, James Macanuto Out on a Limb cartoons King Features Syndicate Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Vellum Bristol paper Copic markers Paper Mater Flair markers Tips Do something and share it. If you want to learn something, draw it because you have to process the information to understand it. Share your work with people who inspire you, you never know where all that interaction might lead. Get on someone else's radar. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike, and I'm here with Gary Kopervas. Gary, how are you doing? Gary Kopervas: I'm doing really well. Mike, thanks for having me. Really excited to be here. MR: Yeah. Did I say your name right, Kopervas? Is that the right way to say that? GK: That is spot on. MR: Really. GK: And that doesn't always happen, so I appreciate that. MR: Yeah. Well, I just came back from Holland, so I've been aware of very unusual names, and trying to pronounce them, that was about a month ago, end of August, early September. GK: I think everyone who's been mispronouncing my name, I should ask them to make a visit and bone up on the pronunciation because I often get the "coppervas" as in the metal or the copper. So, appreciate that. MR: Yeah, not a problem. I always try to make sure I say the name right at least. At least that's the one kind thing I could do for somebody. But let's get into a little bit about you. We've crossed paths because I think we ran across each other on LinkedIn and I really liked your stuff, I think you liked my stuff, we got chatting and I said, you know, "You'd be a really good candidate for the podcast 'cause of the work you're doing." And I'm always trying to push the boundaries of who I talk with to go more toward the edges, so. GK: And I think we have some people in common who introduced—you know, I was aware of your work prior to that, but some people have talked about the podcast and I think we have them in common. So that helped facilitate today. So I'm grateful for that too. MR: Yeah. Now that I think back, there was someone who recommended you, I'm trying to remember who it was that recommended you, but I'd have to. GK: Martha. MR: Martha, yes, of course. Yeah. So, once I saw your work, then that totally made sense. So, I'm glad. Thank you, Martha, if you're listening. GK: Yeah, and I think she will. So she'll be happy for that. MR: She's a pretty dedicated listener. I do know that. GK: Yes. MR: Well, why don't we get right into it? Why don't you tell us a little bit of who you are and what you do, and then jump right into your origin story? How did you end up here? You can go back all the way to when you were a little kid if you want to. I just love the origin story 'cause it tells me so much about the person and what motivates them. GK: Yeah, that's very true. As far as today, I guess I would describe myself as really a cartoonist turned, copywriter, turned creative director, turned brand consultant. It has been an evolution and not really stopping something and starting to do something else, it was always continuing to do what I did in the early days which we can talk about. But it started to evolve it to to the career that I was in. And I went from college to advertising agencies. I live in New Jersey and started in New York. And just to answer your question of who I am Gary Kopervas, and then I'm all those things that I just mentioned. I grew up in East Coast, so advertising was always something that I wanted to do. Growing up, there was this great television show called "Bewitched." MR: Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah. I watched "Bewitched" all the time. GK: She was a genie out of a bottle, you know, I think it was a documentary, I'm not sure, but she was a genie—oh, no, a witch. Sorry about that, that's actually not a genie. MR: Bewitched, yeah. GK: Bewitched. She was a witch, Elizabeth Montgomery, a cute witch and married to an advertising executive. So it was always like, man, I have to look into this advertising thing because it was always creative and it was always, you know, Darren creating these cool campaigns. And then his wife, the witch, would always splash it up with something really cool and amazing and Darren would get all the credit, you know, for being so creative. So, you know, it was a sitcom when you're a little kid, but I just thought this advertising seems like it might be a good thing which did dovetail into I guess an origin story, is that I was a quiet kid. I just didn't talk a whole lot. But I found at some point writing and drawing and playing the guitar became really great forms of self-expression for me. So I started to just you know, write stories and comics. I grew up around, "Mad Magazine" and "Marvel Comics." I had a mom, like many moms who saved a lot of things, and I would see there's elaborate stories of things that I had written and illustrated. So the cartooning thing was really a great thing for me because it just allowed me to, at some level, make sense of the world around me. I didn't write journals per se, but I kept pretty good—maybe unconsciously at that age, but I would always draw what I was into and draw what I was interested in. And to look at it years, years later, it was always amazing. One of the examples, and I still laugh about that was parent-teacher night. The teacher said to my mom, is like, "Oh, we asked the kids to draw something that they like, you know, a house, maybe a Turkey made out of their hands, some cotton and clouds." And I brought into class the illustrated, as best I can, the parody of The Godfather from "Mad Magazine" by Mort Drucker. You know, just painstakingly drawing Sonny Corleone, and my mother was like, "Wow, all the other kids had, like, you know, houses and trees and yellow suns, and you came in with the Godfather parody." And they kept an eye on me for a little while, but it was just an example of us fascinated by getting lost into writing words and drawing pictures. But the true origin story goes back maybe a little bit further, but like most, and looking at your wall, it's fun to see and reminds me of superheroes and Marvel. And like most kids that are, you know, six, seven years old Superman and Batman, maybe Captain America or Thor. And I would draw them which was really great for things like anatomy and drawing just what human beings look like. And that was fun. But in drawing that, I like many kids wanted to be Batman. Batman was really a fun thing, and I would have stuff on walls, but there was a period of about a year or two when I can't explain it, but that's how the culture works, is I really got excited about Zorro. Do you remember Zorro? MR: Yeah. GK: Zorro was the swashbuckling— MR: He left a Z, and when he would fight crime or whatever, right? GK: And I thought that was a cool thing. So me being a quiet guy and using drawing and writing to express myself when I was around that same age, six or seven, I thought it would be like a really cool idea that on one rainy day, I did have a Sharpie, maybe it was my first experience with Sharpies, where I put Little Z's under the furniture in my family's living room furniture. So I thought it was cool, I had Z's all underneath, you know, put under various pieces of furniture until my mother did see that and said, "Come here a minute. What gives on all this furniture, there's little Zs under our living room chairs. What's with the Zs? Did you draw the Zs? " And I want to remember it this way, I'm not sure if it actually happened, but it was like, "Mama, I really didn't draw those Z's. Zorro did. I had nothing to do with it." After talking to and probably a grounding, I realized, "Do not deface furniture with Z's." But at a very young age, I found there was something really interesting about drawing and writing and letting your imagination run, and to get a reaction from people. What I think it did, is it allowed me to build confidence, you know? 'Cause I was quiet and played sports and did things like, you know, hung out with friends in the neighborhood. But I think I started to find, "Hey, I'm actually okay at this. I can write and I can draw, and I usually get reactions outta people. Not always favorable, you know, with the whole Zorro thing. But it was an opportunity to express. And I followed that into jobs and started to shape this idea that I was very visual, but also wrote, so sort of a left hand, right hand. Then what sealed it for me was, to follow this little arc of an origin, I was in high school like many, and in a chemistry lab in high school, maybe 10th-grade 11th-grade. Maybe it was a bio lab. And it was a three-hour lab, and the teacher was, I still remember him, he was a really serious guy. And I remember wearing earth shoes, and he wore his pants really high, and he had a beard with no mustache. So I couldn't help but say, man, he sees really sort of a comic character. So it was an afternoon of learning about the Doppler effect, about the little dropping of balls into the water and the rings of things, which is, you know, pretty important at the time. And it was long though, for me. My mind started to just wander in my hand and my imagination. So I started to, in my notebook draw a picture of this teacher talking about the Doppler effect. And it was a bit of a caricature, but it was taking something he said about the Doppler and, and drawing it. And a neighbor nearby said, "Lemme see that. That's funny. That's really funny." So I started this, a Doppler effect of distraction in this classroom where people grab the notebook and passed it. All of a sudden I realized it was getting away from me. And people laughed and they're like, "Oh, man, this is—" And as teachers often do, they pick up on that right away. And he saw about three rows away from me, saw disruption. So he walked over and he looked at, "Hold on one second. May I see this?" And he saw the picture that I had drawn, and with this little scenario, and in a poker face, didn't say much, and he said, "Oh, who did this?" And I was like, "Uh-oh this is gonna top my Zorro experience. This is like, serious now." So he came over and I heard this little earth shoe squeaking, you know, as he made his way through the rows. 'Cause people were like, "Who drew this?" And people gave me— MR: They kept pointing backwards. Yeah. GK: — people gave me up. I still remember, walked up to the side of me, you know, and I was just playing it cool. And he looked down and he said, "Did you draw this?" And he put the notebook in front of me. And I was like, "What am I gonna say?" I was like, "Yeah, I did do that." And I was expecting, oh no, I'm outta here. I'm gonna probably go somewhere, someone's office. And he looked at it and he goes, "So you did this?" I said, "Yeah, I did this." And he goes silence. It was like two seconds. And I thought, "Oh, it's just boiling up. This is not gonna go well." MR: It's getting worse, yeah. GK: He goes, "Could you add color to this? And I wanna put it in the frame and give it to my wife." And I just thought, "That did not go the way I thought it would go." MR: No. GK: He said, "This is so funny. I would love if you can just maybe pull it out and clean it up and put some color in it. And I like to give it to her for fun in a frame." And I realized at that point, the reactions that you can have, even in the most, you know, unexpected places of just an idea and a visual be it comic or just a diagram or what have you, that just captures people. And I just thought, "This is starting to get interesting." And then from there, I went into to college and studied business thinking, advertising, and then got into creative departments. And then it's been that trajectory ever since. So it's funny though, those early stories, the early days led up to what had been, you know, a pretty, pretty long career now. MR: Wow. Yeah. It prepared you in some ways to be ready. I love that you're channeling the spirit of Zorro to your mom, right? GK: Oh. MR: I guess she probably was thinking like, "Well, at least he drew it on the bottom of the furniture," right? GK: He said, "Maybe he was thinking a little bit." But it was on the bottom. I don't know the mental process then, but it was so important that I did not do the top. And I think it was that you know, Zorro had that little mask, and he was sort of mysterious, so he didn't wanna go over the top. That was one of my early memories of that whole creativity. MR: Wow. One of the first taggers, I guess Zorro. I never thought of it that way. GK: Yeah. At least Sharpies could rub out and wash out if you wanted it to, but Zorro went right into the wood. MR: He would cut into there. Yeah. GK: He would cut into the wood. So I wasn't completely Zorro, so, but they were forgiving, thankfully. MR: Yeah. And as they were on the bottom. Yeah. That's really cool. I love the story about the teacher as well, you know, because we have had a fair amount of teachers on this show, and they really embrace visualization. It seemed like this teacher was open enough to do the same and see the value. Like, wow, he really was. I would think any teacher that walked up and saw that, leave aside the humorous drawing of him, which he enjoyed, right? It worked out that he enjoyed it. GK: Yeah. MR: You were paying attention, right? You were capturing information and the stuff he was telling you, you were receiving it, right? That's a reflection of what you received, so. GK: And that's a really good point. And I hadn't thought about it before, you know, trying to pull out what maybe would become mechanics of some sort that I would do later. But I was listening to Doppler and I had him in some context that said, "Oh, I heard you, but I'm just gonna interpret it." And I think that's what, whether it's either sketchnoting or even workshops that I often do is I'm hearing what comes out or comes from and then quickly interpreting it and putting it into somewhat of a visual context, as, you know. And just isn't solely reporting what you hear. It's not like it's a court stenographer or something. It's interpreted and enhanced so it's more memorable and sometimes even more entertaining, you know? MR: Right. And you're often connecting—I find myself connecting dots, like it may be unsaid, but there's a connection between these things that as I look at it, these have impact on each other, or one doesn't exist without the other. And you can visually connect those things, which could be pretty interesting. Maybe you did that as well in the work you did. I think the other thing too, as an a scientist, right? So he was a scientist. GK: Yes. MR: His whole job is observation. You have to be a good observer of what happens and then document it. You did all those things. You were observing him. You're almost, as though he were a monkey in a zoo or something, and you're observing like all the details. GK: Yeah, that's true. MR: And then, you're capturing what he was saying, and on top of it, and putting it in context. I'm curious, did you ever hear back from him, what his wife thought of your drawing? Did you get feedback on that frame drawing? GK: I did. And it was a hallway because I remember it was, and I still had another year. I think it was like a junior year, I was still there around for a year. But he was a tough teacher grade-wise, but he did have a bit of a sense of humor. And it was almost like Catskills kind of humor where, you know, I think I hit a nerve, and he might've been like, "I don't see that here often." So it was a bit of a surprise. And I think probably the following year, my senior year, and oftentimes if I remember correctly, a lot of teachers would hang out in the hall or near their classroom and welcome. I remember walking down the hall towards him and we made eye contact, and he was just like— MR: I remember you. GK: He did a little bit of the De Niro from his movie, "You, you, just wanna tell you, I gave it to my wife around Valentine's Day or whatever it was." And he goes, "She loved it. Now, she'll never let me forget about how high I wear my pants." So he even had a bit of self-effacing humor and order to just want me to just tighten it up so he can give it to his wife. And I think we had in a way a bit of a connection there where he was grateful, but still maintaining his teacher status. But we had a moment in the hallway the following year where I walked away feeling pretty good. Oh, I kind of probably forgot about it, but it made me feel good. Other kids in my class, yet again, kind of quiet guy. And I find there's a little bit of a relationship of sometimes the quiet guys, the instigator. As they say, "You gotta watch the quiet guy, you don't know what he's up to. " And it was a moment where people remembered that and said, you know, that it was fun and they remembered it years after. It's like, "Hey, how about that lab class, you remember that?" "Yeah, that was funny." MR: Gary, the mastermind. GK: Yeah. MR: Talking about all that, so obviously you went to school and you ended up in, you talked about cartoonist copywriter, creative director, and now brand consultant. I'd be interested to hear the—it sounds like you didn't really stop doing the one thing. You just layered things on top, right? So you built all those things into the way you operate. Tell us how those things layer and what does that look like now that you're a brand consultant? How do those different parts come into what you do? GK: And that's a great question. And it was a little bit of that. I'd started out as a junior writer at different agencies. One was in New York, and then I wound up going out to the Midwest. And so you're just doing what you're told and, you know, you're writing for whatever clients you were working on. I found myself—and this was years before even knowing what sketchnoting was, or people actually did it. I was in many meetings, lots of meetings, and some boring meetings. And there were times when we didn't all work on our laptops, which was a little bit like, "Geez, I don't know why I wish I knew at that point." We all wrote in notebooks and things, so, we would often sit in, you know, circles or semi-circles and just notes and say, "Hey, let's take a break and we'll come back in 10 minutes." And oftentimes, people would go by and in matter of casually walking by and look at my notebook, and it was just organized differently. Everyone else had the same notes taken the same way they took it back in high school and in their biology classes, just that everyone's notes looked identical. But in that 90-minute meeting, they would look at mine and go, "What kind of going on here? What is this? What are doing? You should be paying attention. Your notebooks should all look like everyone else is." It just didn't process that way. My mind would work, as I often described it, in sound bites and snapshots. As the information came out an image would pop into my mind, and all of a sudden I would just doodle, a lot of doodling. I would doodle an image and then write what I heard around it. And they were just little episodic sketches during a 90-minute meeting. And people will be like, "How do you do that? How can I do that? Because I wanna take a guess and say, I'm gonna remember yours a little bit more." So it's that idea again, of verbal visual working together. And I got somewhat known for amongst clients and creatives of that odd note-taking style. And then, and then the progression said, "Hey, we have a large meeting where we're gonna do a whiteboard, or we're gonna just put your paper up on the wall, could you just track notes and can you stand up and do that?" And I was like, "I think I could do that. I mean, I haven't, but I'll put my notebook aside and grab a couple of these markers, and sure let's do it. And I started to do that in a larger scale at meetings, and I noticed people would take their phones out later on, people actually took photos with their phones. Took their phones out, took pictures of it. And I was like, "Wow, why are you doing that?" He said, "I don't wanna forget it. I don't wanna forget what we just did. And plus, I wanna share with my team." So I was finding those moments where be it a high school moment where it connects and someone engages with it, years later engaged with it when they saw it on a conference room table or in a room. So it just continued to progress. And people kept waving me on, just do it over here and do it over there. MR: Kind of encouragement. GK: And then there was a moment where it went from, you know, doodling and sketching for my parents, you know, to some positive and negative effects. And then doing it in high school and having a moment with some teachers where it's just like, "That was a reinforcement." And then being in the working environment and ad agencies and with companies, them calling it out is kind of different and helping me to remember the material. And I thought that's really kind of cool. And then there was a moment in the working world where I worked for maybe 10 years or 12 or more in new product development. As a group that I was one of the four charter members of a company in Cincinnati that started to do new products. So we would go into rooms and work with teams and research and sales and various others and start to build concepts for either beverages or foods or with hotel chains on how to build these new service programs. But it was basically going from nothing to prototypes and just loosely done sketches. And that was really a great call of a decade of that kind of work where you're working in the intangibles and being able to sketch quickly. And, you know, that was always a great expression that someone shared with me is that a doodle is really the first prototype for anything. And that really lived in the new product era. Another moment where I thought, okay, it's on now, it's kind of interesting, is I was doing an innovation session in Chicago for an education company that in essence trained accountants to become CPAs. So it was training-based and education-based. So a friend was running the program and said, "Hey, can you come out and join us for a couple of days and help facilitate and work their group for new ideas and new approaches, strategic planning kind of thing." And I said, "Sure, I'll do that." I showed up on a Friday—or no, I left on Friday. So I showed up on a Wednesday the night before, and we often grab a bite to eat and talk about, okay, what's the next two days gonna be about? I really hadn't known much about it. And she was always, "Ah, just go with it. You're pretty good on the fly. It's the usual thing except for an education brand." It's like, okay. But meeting with her and the rest of the team, somewhere between me leaving and showing up in Chicago, somebody had said. You know, I spoke to the client and they're really excited to do this, but someone sent me something in a PDF and it's called some kind of sketching." And we were all like, "Well, what do you mean exactly? You know what you mean prototype, just like writing sketchbooks and sharing it?" She said, "No in front of the room to hear the ideas and then to live sketch them in the room and move on to the next." It was a strange request because somebody said, "Hey, any of you guys do that?" MR: Here you are. "I can do that." GK: "Anybody with any experience?" And it was a very good friend of mine said, "I didn't even see this coming so don't feel obligated, but do you wanna try?" I said, "Well, I haven't done it in this capacity. And it was always fairly loose and spontaneous, but now this is part of an expectation of a two-day conference." MR: Right. It's different. GK: So, I remember asking, "What is the client's expectation?" So they said, "I'll send you PDFs of what it is. "And it was largely what you would imagine it would be, you know? A lot of just loose sketches and a lot of mind mapping. It was more energetic and more, excuse me, visually interesting mind maps than just circles and hubs and spokes kind of thing. So at that point, it's like, "What do I have to lose? Yeah, okay. I'll do it." So they went out and got foam core or other types of materials, and handed me the markers. And I showed up in the morning going, "This is either gonna go pretty good or okay, or—" MR: I'm never gonna do this again. GK: "— I'm never gonna do this again." It might've been when you really started to make this more mainstream and make people aware of its sketchnoting, all of a sudden people are like, "Hey, I saw this thing, can we do that?" And it was a moment in time where probably a lot of what you were doing and some of your, you know, colleagues, someone on this client team said, "I'd like to incorporate this into our session." And now, it was maybe one of the more lucky instances that I could imagine because it went really well. It's just while I was doing it, you have that out-of-body where you look down and go, "Man, this is like so much energy. Look at these people. There's laughter." And I found that that point, the style started to emerge a little bit, which was, it had a lot of that cartoonist in it. Some of my objects, and some of my people looked a little Don Martin-like from "Mad Magazine," and people were like, "Oh, that's funny." But there were many drawings over the course of two days that might've been 8 or 10, which was kind of fast stuff. And I realized, man, I'm kind of gassed at drawing, you know? But I went home and they did ask to ask me to do some buttoned-up, cleaned-up versions. And I still have that set of 10 or 12 that were fun to do, live in the room. And it really helped the team look at all the ideas and go, "I see all the components and you really characterized it, get rid of this one, we'll keep that one. And my friend who organized the session said they, they loved it And it was, you know, better than they thought. And it was a lot of people who had their hand in it. But me playing this little—it was like an improv, I played in bands in high school where you'd show up with your guitar with a bunch of strangers. And they're like, "Hey—" MR: Ladies and gentlemen. GK: "—you don't walk this way by Aerosmith." And it's like, enough, and boom, you're off, you go. So it was sort of a, a jam session using sketchnoting and it was one of those moments where I thought, "Okay, I got a new arrow in the quiver, and it's a pretty sharp one and a pretty cool one at a time when there was growing need for it. So the agencies that I worked with, they had also had like, "Hey, we got this, you know, different way of doing things." So I started to do every meeting like kickoffs and immersions and presentations, and even strategy meetings where I became a little bit of the clunky monkey with the symbols where I would come out and they're like, "Do that thing. " And then years went by and I realized this is an extension of all the things I did early on, and now a market had been created for it. Again, I'll take this opportunity to thank you for a lot of what you put out that did a lot of the heavy lifting. MR: Oh, thanks. Well, I think there were a lot of other people doing it too. And graphic recording, which is more of that large scale, in the front of the room stuff, existed since the '70s with David Sibbet, some others. GK: The Grove. MR: The Grove. Yeah. And some others MG Taylor, I think Matt, and Gail Taylor were doing it. They were also part of that early way before. GK: Yeah. MR: You know, in my experience, I didn't know that graphic recording was a thing. I stumbled into and invented the name sketchnoting and practiced it just 'cause it made sense to me. I didn't know if anybody else could apply it. It was just totally me making sense out of note-taking because it wasn't working. And then come to find out, hey, all the concepts that seemed really logical to me is the same stuff that these people standing in front of rooms getting paid to do the work are doing. And so, then I got involved with many of the people in that community. So now I'm connected to that community. So there's been a lot of people, I think, over time, that have been slowly building that wall. And there's lots of people now that enter the business or the space, or the community, wherever you wanna call it. And there's a huge wall built that you can walk on. A bridge, somebody built this bridge, but it took, you know, 10, 15 years of work to put that up. GK: Yeah, exactly. Right. And the other observation, which was a moment was, I think during COVID we're, I mean, globally, all kind of stuck in place, in homes and communities started to pop up and people, and it was critical that people chose to do that, is that people started sharing. And I started to see these similar things to what I was doing, but way different. And something that I could be inspired by coming from people in Italy, in Finland, and in the UK. And all of a sudden, without noticing, a year and a half later, I am connected to and sharing and just chatting to people throughout Europe and various other places that there's a bit of a kinship there that otherwise, you know, again, for me, when you work at different agencies and things, you get a little focused just on what you're doing and who you're doing it with. And now there's such a community out there where there's always something new to learn. And I think we all learn that a while ago, is continuing to learn, keeps you plugged in, keep you relevant and there's always a new perspective to learn something by, and I could look at some people's work and going, "Wow, that is so much in the way that works for them. I could never do it that way, but I really like how maybe the mechanics of it is something that can apply to my own thing." And then the great thing is that most of the people that I've been in touch with, they're like, happy, go, "Yeah, I'm glad something clicked for you and go and use it." And now I'm adapting different tools and templates for branding assignments. And now, I mean, I'm sure is some of the work of Dave Gray and Sunni with Gamestorming. MR: Yeah. GK: There were times where, and prior to seeing Gamestorming, I just realized I'm just having fun and upfront and drawing these funny little templates and asking people to put post-Its on this cartoon head of an empathy map before I knew what an empathy map was. MR: Right. Right. GK: And I realized that's a whole nother layer of this cartoonist turned brand guy that somehow made meetings more enjoyable and clients would be like that, "That wasn't even work. That was fun." And I thought, "Okay, that's I something I'd like to hear." MR: It's pretty cool. GK: Yeah. And it was just, again, a adapting some of those muscles that got built up and some of the other muscles that were deliberately built up in terms of advertising and branding. But it's been an interesting journey, and one that it was not prescribed, you know, I backed into a lot of different environments. The new product thing was just really something that through circumstances that ad agency wanted to get into new products. And I wound up being one of the people that wound up working in that part of the agency, and thought that was no dumb luck. That was really a cool break. MR: Yeah. Well, I think, on the flip side, you prepared yourself by doing all this work as a kid and continuing, of course, you had encouragement like by your teacher in high school, but you were doing it because it made sense to you, and you were putting in the hours doing it in meetings for yourself, then called before the group to do it, and they really gave you feedback. So all this prep put you in the position. Like, so had you not been doing that and you had the opportunity to be a part of that product group, you probably may not have gotten the job at least not to do that. Or maybe not at all. I don't know, right. Because you had this skill that was unique that you could bring to the table, and obviously it was the people that decided maybe you should be part of that had seen it in practice in the past. So everything's sort of built on top of the next thing. GK: I think that's true. I was lucky in some of those respects where it was as much of a surprise or an epiphany to the people around me as it was to me. And just in a very, I think basic sense you're adding value that maybe isn't everywhere. I think a lot of the people I've met and yourself included, it's an interesting package of talents, you know? I think it's just not something you see in classified ads. You become an amalgam of your experience and your talents and it makes you, you. And I think if you could find a group that appreciates that and really feeds it which I had the opportunity to work at a branding agency over a decade where they kept feeding me more opportunity to do that it's about growth. I think I'm happiest when I'm growing. MR: Yeah. I agree. I think so too. Well, this has been great. It's been really fun to see your progression to where you're at now and how you're using all this—all the things that you've built, they don't go away. They just become useful at different points in the project, right. So, That's pretty cool. I'm really curious now if we switch over from the work, your background, and how you got here. What are the tools that you like to use? We always do this with every guest. I discover new stuff all the time. And I thought I'd seen everything. So I love this part of it because there's like, "Oh, I'd never heard of that pen, or that notebook or that something. GK: Yeah. I wish I could bring more discovery to it, but in terms of the transition from analog to digital, I'm a bit of a work in progress. Because I still love—and maybe it has a lot to do with the nature of the work was always show up. And it has changed since COVID where there's mural and it's different. But over those years of development working with markers and paper, I think it was just, you know, I love the feel of a line. I have a lot of cartoonist friends 'cause I've been doing this cartoon strip for many years now, and I have a lot of cartoon friends, and they're still like, "Man, you still dip a quill pen in ink." And then there's one or two were that I still know that are There's nothing like a feel of that line. But, you know, a lot of the tablets now and the digital tools, so I'm doing my best and I found some coaches to move me there. But I'm one of those types, particularly with being very mobile and working in a place where it's just coffee shops and other places, I like being able to walk in and buy tools from Rite Aid. Whether it's a nice gel pen or a—I have a friend, Rob Armstrong, who does jumpstart very successful long running strip. He still hand draws all his strips with a Paper M1ate pen. MR: Really. GK: Yeah. And some people are like, "That would take forever." I think it's a call you make, but I do love the times I've dabbled and toyed with, you know, iPads and things, but I need to do some work on the digital side. You may have found this too, but there were stores in the past, there was an art store called Pearl on the East Coast, these superstore, you know, where I can get lost. MR: Lost in there for a day. Right. GK: I'm buying pens and paper, and there's one in Philadelphia, which I'm not far from, called BLICK. MR: Yeah, BLICK. GK: And BLICK is one of the remaining super stores. I like Copic. I'm a fan of that. There's a couple others I think Japanese made that has a really fine brush to it where you can—I love varying lines and creating some depth. But my tools are what they have been for years. I would even turn it around and say, your tools, what do you recommend digitally? I mean, is it Wacom? I mean, where are you at in the whole transition to digital? MR: Yeah. Well, I would say just understanding that you're someone who's mobile, and I'm a mobile person too. I think the iPad and the pencil is pretty great. The resolution with the pencil and the screen is good. I recommend some kind of a screen cover. I like Paperlike, which has got little patterns that are printed or embedded in the plastic. Not only does it make it matte so it's not shiny, but it also provides a paper-like texture, hence the name. GK: Yeah. That's really key to know. I'd have to even go back and get that again once this gets out because the times that I have toyed with things, it's a little tricky, it feels like you're, you're drawing on a glass surface. I have other daily strip friends who do comics and go, "I couldn't go back to that because my process is so quick, and now I can knock work out a lot faster." Their production approach is vastly different. Which I can understand where I have some shopping to do and figure out what I'm most comfortable with, but I'm in the middle of it. I have an iPad now that I toy with, but I don't actually do work on yet. MR: In production. Okay. GK: Yeah. Latex Syndicate does my coloring and that kind of thing. MR: Okay. There's a few apps that you might consider. Procreate is popular with lots of people. It's really aimed at art. It's got layering like Photoshop. You can choose different brushes and colors and you can record it and have it animated. There's all kinds of power in there. If you need to edit your lines, if you want vectors like Adobe Illustrator, there's a couple of tools. One is called Concepts who sponsors the podcast. GK: Yeah. I think I've seen that. MR: Where you have different brushes and such. But then you can grab the points just like in Illustrator and move things around. You can select whole chunks and change to a different brush and it flips. Adobe Fresco is another tool that does both pixels and vectors in the same application. So that's another one to play with. And that's a variety of other ones. Some people who are really doing more note-taking than art, lean toward other tools. There's lots of really great note-taking tools, Goodnotes and Noteshelf and even Apple's Notes is pretty decent. It supports the pencil. There are some that are more note-oriented. If you need the organization and the structure of notes and to be able to search and all that, then that might be the better path. And then there's stuff that fits in between like I use a tool called Paper by WeTransfer. It's super old. It's designed when the iPad first came out. What I like about it is it's very limited. So I can't change the screen size. There's no layers. There's limited tools and the tools set are limited sizes. The colors are adaptable. But I kind of like the constraints. And what I've found is I've invested so much time using it that if I need to knock out an idea quickly, I just go to that tool 'cause I know it so well. I know where all the parts are. I know what it's gonna achieve. I know how to achieve them. For me, it works really well. But I also use Procreate for illustration work. 'cause It's got benefits of resolution and layers and undo and other features. So I think you almost need to take a little little tour on each one and see which one fits. And there might be need, I believe, in multiple tools, because some projects require different expectations. So if you need to make something that needs to be zoomed up to a billboard, well, you probably wanna use a Vector tool because procreates gonna pixel out at some point, even if—unless you build the canvas to be big enough, which is one approach. The other approach is to go, you know, resolution-independent with Concepts or Fresco, and then you could scale. So that'd be my list for you. GK: All good stuff. No, that's a great one. I'm gonna have to pull that off because a near-term goal I set for myself is to really get set and getting that comfort level because a lot of my cartoonist friends use the same type of a setup. And I dabbled with there. So I'm gonna have to you know, step into this century. MR: I think it's important for you to find what works for you. So even if they use something else, who cares? Like, if it works for you, you know this already. GK: Yeah. I love the point you made that if you have real stuff to that you're accountable for, you have something that's familiar and reliable and you know what you're getting into, and then create experiment time to try some other things. But that would be my ideal setup is to have my go-to. MR: Yeah. I think the other thing that works for me, and this isn't true for everybody, but it might, is I need a real project to work on. When I wanted to use Procreate, I had a big illustration project and I said, "All right, I gotta use this. I gotta figure it out." I forced myself to sit down and build the templates and choose the different inks and sizes, and I set it all up, and then I forced myself to do a project with it. And that was a good solution. For me, I learn 'em as much as I can, and then there's a point which I have to flip over and use it, and then they start to make sense together, so. GK: Yeah. No, that's, that's good advice. MR: Yeah. Going back to your analog tools, I'm kind of curious if you have any specific ones that if you go to the Rite Aid, are there certain pens or notebooks or anything that you tend to work with? Do you have any notebooks that you like? Is there a certain gel pen brand that you prefer if you can get it? GK: I think in terms of paper it, as long as I can remember, it's always been the—oh man, what's the—it escapes me at the moment. I don't wanna say Valore, but, so that's not— MR: Like Parchment paper, something like that? GK: No, it's, it's a little heavier weight paper, but it's in Michael's is another place that I go. it's just—vellum. Thank you. MR: Vellum. Yeah. GK: Whatever part of my brain say Valore. It's not Valore, it's Vellum, but it's Bristol Vellum. The Vellum has that nice tooth to the line. And I still love to see the interplay between a line and a piece of paper and scan it. Whenever I see my strips, the weekly strip I look at, and it's just like, I remember that line. It's a little obsessive. But I do the Copic pens of a lot of variety, but it's a good firm. Its tip doesn't mash. MR: Lays on top of that Bristol Vellum as well. GK: Yeah. And you could lean in and that's good. And then there's—is it Tubo? I forget. It's a Japanese pen. They sell 'em in too, and then I go through them like whenever I see them, I buy 'em. But they're mostly one's a firm paint or a brush tip. The other one's a little more of a traditional paint or a brush I should say. But that's usually in the Michaels or the BLICK. This is from Rob, you know, he does a lot of his lettering with a Paper Mate pen. MR: Paper Mate Flair. GK: Yeah. The Flair, it's like the Chuck Tailors of sneakers of mark making. I mean, it's just like tie up the Chucks and put 'em on, you know, and whenever I'm in Rite Aid or CVS, it's just like, "Okay, buy a couple things. We need, you know, milk, bread, Paper Mates." MR: Paper Mates. GK: And I always have those. I'm thankful that they don't discontinue that. I have huge, you know, just boxes of pens and I'm not loyal to, you know, other than what the ones that I've mentioned, because they've served me well. I do need to experiment and push out. But those are the Copic and the Paper Mate. MR: Simple tool set. Yeah. GK: Yeah. That's what I use for the strip. And my strip, I do on the vellum. I just scan them, clean them up, and send it to the syndicate. I work with King Features, and King Features does all the colorizing, and they distribute it to the papers and they send me the finish and it's always like Christmas. I send them these little black and white comics, and then they send me the archives of all the colorized. The strip I do a strip called Out On The Limb, and it's been like 30 years with King. And it's always that same relationship as I send them the finished black and white, and they colorize it. All my other friends are like, I still use my digital 'cause I wanna color it the way I want to. I should get used to that, but I love that King does that for me, and it's a nice joint relationship for many years now. MR: Yeah. It's worked for a long time. Maybe it doesn't need to be changed at all. GK: Yeah. It will eventually. At least being able to control that and send. I'm sure they wouldn't be mad if their production team in Orlando goes, "Oh, he's gonna do color. We don't have to do that anymore." MR: Yeah. Thankfully. GK: "It took forever." So, we'll see. MR: Interesting. So that makes me curious, since you're a cartoonist and you continue to be for a long period of time, what I think could be interesting to answer would be how do you deal with, every week you've gotta come up with an idea. Where do you get your ideas from? How do you cook up those? Are they just stuff that you encounter and you put 'em away somewhere? Do you have a tool or a notebook where you write things down? Like how do you manage that stuff? GK: It's really interesting, A lot of the same muscles. It's like listening and observing. Somewhere, somebody said this and it always stuck, which is, "You gotta do A, B, C. Always be capturing." So wherever I am, and now with iPhones, if I see an absurd notion in the world, I put it in the phone. And then I have a bit of a writing routine where Sunday nights I often go, "Okay, let me see this culmination of photos and post-its and backs of envelopes." The world is great stimulus for ideas. And sometimes I'll just stockpile them and then sit down and process it. And there was an incident where, I'm sure you've noticed is that I was walking through Barnes and Noble and went through like the top 10 books, often business books. So the top 10 business books, six out of the 10 business books had the F-bomb in it. Suddenly, major business books all have you know, F-words, we'll keep it at that. And I just thought, "What is that?" And then my mind started to play with that whole reality. And a cartoon happened where there was a woman—I took it out of the bookstore and put it into the standard library and saw a little librarian with a bit of a potty mouth talking to somebody who was directing them to the business book of the section, which is essentially, the cartoon was like, "Hey, it's okay. Let's everyone—just F-away, man. It's accepted." Because I just thought, wow, when did this this—people are now writing books to see if they could top someone else. So that was just an example of ideas happen because I just always keep one hand free. And I heard recently, there's a great quote by Neil Simon, and he said, he said it for comedy writers, but I think it's true of cartoonists, but also anyone who's creative. And Neil Simon said, "Comedy writers are two-headed monsters. One head is like everybody else. They go to the DMV, they go to Rite Aid, they put gas in the car. That's the one head. The other head is the one that kind of rises up and looks around and notices all the things around that other head and the rest of the body." And that's why that one really spoke to me because my wife will be one saying, you know, we're at this parent-teacher night, and my mind is like, wow. And she's like, "Earth to Gary, can you kind of dial back in here into this parent-teacher night?" So part of that is I do have that second head kind of out there looking for odd connections to make. And, you know, I'm hoping it never stops, but I'm always looking and always capturing stuff I can maybe use later. And many times it's writing it down in a small notebook and other times with the laptop. And now with the phone, that's the one piece of digital that I've become really relying on is photos and notes to myself, because it is true, you forget those epiphanies, you know? And there are times where I'll read a note, much like an old "Seinfeld" episode with a note he put on his next to his bed, where he couldn't decipher what it was he wrote at 2:00 in the morning. There are times where I can't make sense out of a note, but I still feel good having taken the note. Because there are times that some of the best ideas come from other people and just being in the right place. And that's why many of my coworkers coming out of those meetings that I described earlier, once they see me write something, they're like, "You didn't write that." When I said, "Right. I'm not gonna be an inspiration for a cartoon." And many times, they had, and I share it with them, but there'd be just brilliance that are far beyond what I'm thinking at that time. And I would just write something down and later the sweetest little gag and I'd often share it with them. And going back to my science teacher, they're happy to get it. And every single day, and particularly the world we live in now, there's just so much, to your point, you know constantly making new connections. And that's why I think, you know, there's always stuff to have fun with and build ideas around. So it's paying attention. MR: Well, let's shift into tips. I always frame it that someone's listening their individual thinking, but they feel a little bit like they're in a rut or hit a plateau. They just need some inspiration. What would be three things that you would tell them practical or, you know, mental suggestions to help them break out of that rut or just move forward? GK: This isn't too long ago myself, where I start to feel like it's a bit of a rut and also a rut, but also sometimes when you transition because I moved from agency life into now my own consultancy, which it's a different world and it's a different metabolism almost. I mean, it's just different. And I think that led me to this idea of the tip is sometimes just continue to—I'll use my case of, of writing and drawing and things, is to create and share. I mean, there are so many people that—I'm sure yourself and I know people like Austin Cleon has a book or two out there. It's just like, just put it out and let that be a source of conversation. And during that time when I started to expand some of the community with sketchnoters, I would just do things, you know, whether it was listening to a particular podcast, and I just would draw it and say, here's something I did. And it turned out to be something on LinkedIn where I started to share more, and I heard back more, and I got feedback. So whenever you're stuck put something out. And that's the beauty right now of even LinkedIn. If there are people that you admire or people that whose opinion, you'd appreciate, you know, share something and say, "There's something I'm working, I'd love to get your thoughts." And, you know, no harm could come from doing, creating something and putting it out, and sharing it. I mean, you might get, you know, feedback that people sometimes aren't always kind. But I think by and large the tip would be to just, you know, create every day and put it out there and start conversations with it. And there were times where I do, and I call it the Kopious notes now 'cause my name is Kopervas. So I will listen to a podcast or something of—an example of if I was stuck again, I'm not generating anything anymore, I will listen to a podcast or something. A friend of mine who wrote for Forbes interviewed Brian Grazer. And it had to do with this, he was launching a book called "The Curious Mind." And my friend Steve said, here, could you just listen to this interview that I recorded and can you give me some your takeaway on it? I listened to it and sketchnoted the whole thing, and sent it to him. And he sent it to Brian Grazer, who is in the process of a couple other things with this writer friend of mine. But in doing that sketchnoting, I learned a ton about this idea of I'll cut to the chase on that one is that Brian Grazer has curious conversations from his book. Every two weeks he talks to someone who has nothing to do with Hollywood or directing or producing to learn something. Maybe a long way around to the other idea of do things and share is if there's something you wanna learn, draw it. Because there's that eye-hand thing is that your mind learns when you, you draw it. And it turns out that many of that type of thing, I sent work to authors or even podcasts that guests and they loved it. And we had relationship of, whether it's LinkedIn or whatever of "send me more." I think if I'm stuck, I try to engage new people with work I've done and see where it goes. 'Cause In some cases it's led to consulting gigs. There was two authors that wrote a book, and I was taken by it and I did a quick sketchnote for each of the chapters—or actually for just one of the chapters. And they hired me to do that for all of their chapters. MR: Wow. That's cool. Yeah. GK: Ruts are just kind of like a pause and it's like, "Okay, now what?" When I get to that point when I'm stuck, it usually means I'm at a pause of some sort so I need an interaction with somebody. MR: You need a reason to move forward, I guess. Right. GK: And someone will inspire it or someone will validate something I've been thinking about. And I think I've learned to rely on others to get me through these little pauses and ruts. MR: If I were to re restate those, I guess the first one I heard was if you're in a rut, do something and share it. GK: Yes. MR: The second is, if you wanna learn something, draw it because you have to process the information to understand it. And then the third would be share your work with the people who inspired you. So like a podcast guest, an author, and you never know where that interaction might lead. If anything, you'll just have their appreciation. And all those three things in a row is you've done something to move forward, you've learned something new and you've made an interaction. That's a really great combination of things. GK: And I love the distillation on that, Mike. Thank you. And I think the other, I don't know, maybe it's a wrapping for all of it that I have found whenever I get stuck in a crossroads, whatever, how you wanna describe it, to do some of those things, but it really helps to just get on someone else's radar. And I found whether it was from other brand consultants or those sketchnoters in other parts of the world, get on other people's radar, they get on your radar, and all of a sudden, I find myself not stuck as much because because of that happening to me. So I think there's something about that. And I think we live in a time now where it's much easier to get on other people's radars because we have such access now, whether it's Instagram or LinkedIn is very big from a business standpoint. So use it. MR: Yeah. Those are great tips. Thanks. So to wrap the show up, I just ask where people can find you and your work so they can connect with you, so they can see what you do, they can check out your comic strip, see your work that you do. GK: Yeah, no, that's great. I think I'm most active on LinkedIn. That's where I do a lot of posting and it does have a bit of a business centered approach to it. But I put a lot of things there 'cause So many of my things tie to business. So LinkedIn is one. Facebook is a little more some fun stuff there as well. And at Kopious Notes on Instagram. I've been not pushing that as much. And maybe when this does get out and is live, I will have gotten back on that. But Kopious Notes is where I'm at in Instagram. And same idea is work in progress on garykopervas.com is a site that I've neglected, but there's a lot of my early cartoons there. And that's a either last quarter or first quarter of this year where that's gonna get reinvigorated perhaps. MR: Revamped. GK: Yeah. MR: Nice. Well, that's great. We'll either find those links and put 'em in the show notes, or as we follow up after this interview, maybe you can send me things you wanna make sure we include. So for those that are listening, check out the show notes. We try to make our show notes pretty extensive, and we include transcription of the discussion so if you're a reader, you can read while you listen. So we've got lots of options for you. And we're really happy to have you on, Gary. This has been a long time coming and I'm so glad that you came on the show and you just fit right into our community, just so well. GK: Yeah. Thanks so much. It was a real pleasure. And as you say, I was really waiting for this for some time, and it was awesome. So thanks for having me and have a great weekend. MR: Yeah. Well, thanks for all that you do, and for anybody listening or watching, it's another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Until next time, talk to you soon.

In this episode, Ashton Rodenhiser shares her mission to teach sketchnoting skills to students and professionals so they can use doodling and drawing as their best thinking and learning tools. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Ashton? Origin Story Ashton’s current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Ashton Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Ashton’s Website Ashton’s Website Ashton on Twitter Ashton on Instagram Ashton on Facebook Ashton on Youtube Ashton on Pinterest Ashton on TikTok Ashton on LinkedIn Book: Beginner's Guide to Sketchnoting Free video lesson IFVP Conference Find Your Artistic Voice by Lisa Congdon Dario Paniagua Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Sketcher marker Neuland Bullet tip outliner Posca pens Microsoft Surface Pro Sketchbook Pro Document camera Tips However you need to create it, do it. Cliches are okay. Don't get into the comparing mode. When you are intimidated, you can instead flip it and turn it into inspiration. Have clean nice letters. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike and I'm here with Ashton. Ashton Rodenhiser, how are you today? Ashton Rodenhiser: I'm doing so well, Mike. Thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. MR: It's so great to have you on. We've had fits and starts trying to get this recorded and we finally did it, so I'm excited. And so looking forward to talking with you and sharing your story with everyone. So why don't we just jump right in? Tell us who you are and what you do. AR: Yeah. So I am based in Canada, on the East Coast of Canada. You know, being a mother is pretty important to me, so I always like to mention that. I have three small children between the ages of 5 and 10. I felt like growing up I really wanted to be an artist, but it was like never an option 'cause there was just so much negative rhetoric in my home, in my community about, you know, the lack of art opportunities out there. I put that in a diplomatic way. And so, I really struggled even though I did really well in school, I really did not know what I "wanted to be when I grew up." And I fell into a role as a facilitator. I did that for a couple of years, and that's how I learned about graphic facilitation and kind of where I am today. That was 10 years ago, this month, fall of 2013. It's really easy for me to remember because it was the longest I'd left my six-month-old at the time. It was a whole day to take a graphic facilitation course. I had never even seen it before, but I was like, "This is the best thing ever," where I was able to take my experience as a facilitator and my love for all things creative and mash them together. And then I was facilitating a group at the time and luckily, they were just so great and easygoing. I just threw some paper on the wall and started drawing and I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. It was horrible. But I still have that picture to this day and share it often actually as like, "This was my first one, look how bad it was." And you know, I put it away for a few months and then I brought it out after a while and I looked at it and I was like, "Whoa, I can remember so much from this." It took it from, oh, this is kind of fun and cool and neat to, whoa, this is an actually a powerful thing. This is a way to help navigate that learning and that experience. So doing it in the moment was fun and great, but it was more so about that like after effect for me when I brought it out later and reflected on it and was like, this is more than what I thought it was, in a way. Then it was at that point that I was like, I might like this. This seems like actually helpful. So maybe I will do this more 'cause it's a good time and it's actually helpful. So, fast forward a little bit. I did, you know, a little bit for those first few years and I actually attended the IFVP Conference in Austin, Texas in 2015. And I was a scholarship recipient for that. There's no way I would've been able to go if I hadn't received that. So, very grateful to that opportunity to this day. And I went with a mission in mind. I was like," I'm gonna go and just try to soak up as much as I can. And when I leave, I'm gonna make a decision." Like this is gonna be just like a side hobby that I'll do when people ask me to. Or I'm gonna take this like seriously as a business and I'm gonna try to do it. And obviously, you know, the answer to that question. But yeah, it was a few months after that, after I had my second child that I started building a business around graphic recording, graphic facilitation, live illustration. Yeah. MR: You know, it's interesting you said that it took you a while putting away the work to see your own value in it later. You looked at it like, "Wow, this is really helpful. I remember a lot of the detail because of the work I did." So I think what you were sort of seeing was, I think was a delayed reaction to what the people in the rooms saw. AR: Right. Yeah. MR: 'Cause You know, a lot of times we look back at the work we do and we think, "In light of what I do now, that's so terrible. It was so bad." But then, you know, to the people in the moment who experienced it, for them it was, you know, mind blowing because they'd never seen anything like that. And it was helpful regardless of what it looked like. It brings you back to like, it's a lot more of the action of the doing and a whole lot less on the beauty of it. Functionality of it is way more valuable now. Of course, it's good if you can make it look really beautiful. I mean, that's always nice. AR: That's a bonus, definitely. MR: But it reminds you that the bones of this stuff that we do is really about the functionality of the work we're doing. And then if we can layer on beauty and layout and all these things on top of it, that just adds another layer to it and it makes it even more enjoyable for both you and for the recipient. Anyway, that struck me when you brought that out. 'Cause I've been thinking about that too. I've looked at some really old sketchnotes that I did way back in 2007, was like, "Compared to what I do now, these are very rudimentary and basic." But I needed to start somewhere. And even those, the bones of them were valuable regardless of if they were exactly what I would've wanted now. I mean, at the time I was okay with it, obviously. So, interesting. AR: Yeah, No, I love that. I love that for sure. MR: Well, I'm curious, you mentioned coming from Eastern Canada and you talked about the scholarship to go to Austin, which I can imagine that trip was not cheap and that scholarship probably helped. So tell us your origin story. How did you—you gave us hints to it, you went to this event and made that decision. Fill us some more detail about, how were you as a little girl that brought you to the point at Austin, right? Like, were you always drawing, like, all that stuff? Because I too faced a thing where my dad sat me down and said, "Mike, you can't make money in art. You should find another career path." And I went into printing. And through printing, I found that design was actually a path I could take, which was related. So I'd love to hear your little girl to Austin story, and then I'd love to hear more detail about building that business and how did you come to where you're now? AR: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I guess, I try to do a overview, but yeah, I can dive into it a bit more. I've always been very creative, very self-taught. I've never really taken an art class in my life. I call myself a dabbler. So name a medium, I've probably tried it. Either I tried it for a week or I tried it for a year. I sold painted rocks as a child at craft fairs. So I guess I didn't realize I was a bit entrepreneurial until I started a business and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I guess I have done entrepreneurial things throughout my life." And it was funny that I also was connected to something creative. So I've always been really fascinated in different mediums, but I didn't actually spend a whole lot of time drawing. I painted and did things like that, but I didn't actually draw pictures a lot. I had a few, how to draw cats, how to draw some things, but I didn't have a lot of patience for building the skill of drawing. The art forms that I would find were more instant gratification. I wanted to paint a picture in an hour. I didn't wanna paint a picture over a series of months. So I didn't realize until a few years ago that I think my impatience is actually one of the things that is kind of, I feel like with sketchnoting and live illustration and all that is actually a beautiful fit for me because you have the timeframe and you're like, "All right, it's a half an hour, it's done. Or it's an hour, it's done. Or it's a day, it's done." I've always been very creative, but just doing my own thing, self-taught, try different things. If anything, I learned many different instruments. Learning how to play the bagpipes right now, just for fun, you know. So I took lessons for things like that. But I think, like I said earlier, I didn't even really consider being an artist because it was just the aura. No one really sat me down, like, your experience and said, "You can't do that. That's not gonna work out for you." It was just the stories I would hear of people saying, "Oh, that kid, are you going to art school, good luck with that." And I'm like, "Well, I don't want that for me." You know. And at the time, the only thing that I had considered was being a teacher 'cause I'd always really loved kids. I graduated high school around the recession, 2008 recession. And so it was a hard time to decide what to do after high school because no matter what you did, no one had jobs. Around here anyways, at that time there was a lot of people graduating teacher college and not having work. So I felt like that was going to be a waste of time if I go and spend all this time doing this education and then it doesn't work out. So I pursued an early childhood education to work with these little kids. And that's when I got a job at a nonprofit. I moved to the city thinking that I might be a sign language interpreter. So I started taking all the prerequisites to do that. And that's what I went to the city for. Ended up there being there for a few years because I loved this job at this nonprofit where I started to learn about community development and facilitation. And that's how I got into that. But still, I painted and I did a few things, you know, throughout my life, but I definitely had, you know, dips and lulls, you know, when I was on a very strict budget trying to pay back my student loan. I had a craft budget of $20 a week that I would allow myself to go and buy art supplies. And it was like the highlight of my week, and I would just craft all the rest of the week. But yeah, it was just all over the place in terms of just the things that we would do for fun. That's how I met my husband in high school, I was knitting in the library. And then, I just felt like when I found this work, it was this beautiful coming together of the things that I loved about facilitation and the listening and the thinking 'cause I felt like I always wanted to have a job where I wanted to help people. But when you're younger, the notion of helping people are, you know, you have to be a doctor or something like that. Well, how am I supposed to help people if I don't wanna be a doctor or new nurse or something like that. And when I found facilitation and in this world with those two coming together, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I could like help people. I could help people learn and engage." And I really fell in love with group process with facilitation, creating a safe space and allowing them to feel heard. And it's not about me imposing my ideas or my knowledge, it's really about them. And I was like, this is the best 'cause You don't need to know anything. You know, I joke about that with teachers. But it's this beautiful space to be able to create for people. And then when I started experiencing doing it in the graphical way, I was like, this is really, really cool and I wanna do more of it. Yeah. MR: It sort of added that craft or that creative layer that had been missing, it seems like to me. AR: Yeah, definitely. MR: So you had all the facilitation skills and what this added was the creative part of you then could be turned on and be active too, right? And just not all business. AR: Yeah. And I think that's why—I don't know if I didn't have the experience as the facilitation person first, I don't know what the transition would've been like. I feel like because I had my listening and my thinking skills honed over a few years, the adding the visual element wasn't as scary, I think as it might be for others who are like, "Now I have to, you know, listen and think and draw. So I have to like, develop all these skills." Whereas like, I had the listening and the thinking skills, I had been developing that already, adding in the drawing, like, so then I was able to focus more those early years on the drawing part because I was the listening and thinking was a bit more intuitive. You know, 'cause the way I would describe to people is, as a facilitator, you're listening and thinking, and you're feeding back in words. And now I can listen and think and feedback in pictures, right? So, I don't think it was as big of a jump coming from that space because I'm like, "I can learn the drawing skills. I can learn over time." I didn't really put a whole lot of pressure on myself in the beginning. I just learned some basic drawings. I joke with people that I basically drew a light bulb on every single graphic I did for three years because I'm like, "I know how to draw a light bulb." You know what I mean? I think I just allowed myself to know that I would develop those skills over time if I just kept at it and that the listening and the thinking would really pull me through. Because even if it's mostly words and little drawings there, those few years, the content is always gonna be so important, especially when you're in a room with people and allowing them to feel valued and heard. If you throw a few graphics in there, you know, pretty basic when you're starting, it doesn't really matter, right? And sometimes when I'm teaching and talking with people about it, I'm like, you know, "That will come over time. Just be patient with yourself." And, you know, a lot of times people—this is still really new and they don't have anything to compare it to, which is amazing. So if you just throw some paper on a wall and do it, it's gonna be amazing no matter what. You know what I mean? MR: Right. AR: It just is opening that door and like, they don't know that other people exist in the world who have been doing it longer and maybe it looks like, "prettier." Like, it doesn't matter. And sometimes it's needs to be messy. 'Cause I tell people like, conversations are messy, so sometimes the graphic's gonna be messy. And that's just what it is, you know? MR: Yeah. Comes back to our earlier discussion about what's the most important it's the bones of the value of being in the room together, being heard, capturing something. AR: Exactly. Yeah. MR: It's a good enough graphic. You know, in my experience as designer, especially when I do concept work with people, 'cause that's really what I do, whether it's illustration, I used to do logo and icon design, the rougher the sketches the better because then they feel like they have a say in it, they have a part in it, they can see, you know, there's room to maneuver a little bit. So in some ways, the messier sketches are actually more attractive, weirdly enough, in a process environment, because the focus is on the process. And then eventually, as long as you're in a boat—you know, if you're in a sailboat, which I've been on, you know, you're not going in a straight line. You're catching the wind one way, and you're tacking back and forth, but you're going toward a final destination, right. You're not just going in a straight line like you can in a motorboat. Even in a motorboat, honestly, they're floating around a little bit too, right. So if you think about that as a metaphor, it's being by water, right? So it's like, but ultimately you're gonna get to Nova Scotia, right? You're gonna come in to that point, it's just like the way you get there is gonna maybe be messy for a while. So if you think of it that way, you know, you're moving towards a destination and you know, it's gonna have its ups and downs, but everybody knows that we're gonna end up in the right place. That that's a great feeling. AR: Yeah. I love that. That's a great analogy. I'm gonna use that. MR: You steal it if you want to. AR: Yes, I will. Thank you. MR: Well, that's really cool. So tell us a little bit about the kind of work you're doing now. What is your ideal clients and is there someone you can share, you know, that you don't have any kind of agreements with that you're, that you can talk about? And then also, you have a book you've released. I want you to talk about that book, most definitely. So let's go in that order. Tell us a little bit about the work you do and then let's talk about your book. AR: I usually spend my time doing graphic recording, graphic facilitation. The way that I like to define it is graphic recordings, more like the conference world. There's speakers. I do a lot of that. Like, that's probably the majority, right. And then there's the graphic facilitation world, which is what we talked a lot about so far, is finding myself in those situations where there's groups of people and you're helping them come to some decision or, you know, there's multiple voices. So usually let's say like one voice or multiple voices. A room full of people having a conversation or a speaker on a stage. So lots of graphic recording, some graphic facilitation, would love to do more of it, but some of that. And I started teaching in person workshops, I think back in 2018, 2000 and something like that. Like pretty early on. And did some in-person things, and just did another one last week. But I hadn't done one in three years because you know, the world. MR: Yeah. Yeah. AR: And so, it was so exciting to get back in person because there's nothing better than, you know, helping people stand at a wall for the first time and make those marks. So, some of that. And then, yeah, released my "Beginner's Guide to Sketchnoting" book here just a few months ago. Because I was finding that a lot of people were saying to me all the time, "I would love to learn this skill. I wish you could follow me around, we record every meeting that I go to." And I would say to people, you know, "It's like, not that hard. You could totally learn it." And they just brush you off. They're like, "No, no way. I could possibly." And I'm like, "But you could though, but you could." And so, I started this sort of journey process of putting this book together, which took about a year and a half and did beta reading and getting feedback from people. 'Cause with the idea of trying to make the concept of learning sketchnoting as accessible as possible. Really handholding people through that process. We can talk a little more about that if you want to, but that's generally it. And so yeah, I have a little sketchnoting community and the book and stuff. So I'm just in this space now of really trying to just talk about, you know, helping people move through learning this. And one area that I'm specifically focusing, and I'm trying to do some case studies this year, is like, with students in school and trying to get into some schools and do some case studies. And with a little bit of trouble, but I'm getting there. I'm getting there trying to build relationships and do the things there, because I think if we can—like my 10-year-old, I've been teaching her some things because I know that in her school, that's when they start teaching note taking. So I don't know what it is like for other places in the world, but grade 5, age 10 is where they start to introduce note taking. So I was like, "Okay, well if this is when they're starting to introduce it, then maybe that's the age demographic or group that I need to be talking about." Because I do have schools that have brought me in to teach like older grades, but I feel like if we could do it earlier as the foundation and then they can choose, they have multiple ways that they can do their note taking and do it right in the beginning instead of, you know, they started to have develop a way that they do it, and then a few years later you introduce this, then it might not come as naturally. So I'm trying to find that sweet spot right now and work with schools to see what that looks like trying to get that into part of their learning for note taking. Yeah. MR: Well, I would guess having a book that's published certainly helps with getting in. That's helped me for sure. Who would you say is the main ideal reader for the book? Do you have in mind a group of people that the book is aimed to? Or is it more of a broad, anybody can read this book kind of thing? AR: Yeah. It's definitely a broad, but more of someone who might have considered themselves creative at one point, maybe have a weird relationship with creativity, because I find I'm having more conversations about that these days where people are like, "Well, I'm not creative." I'm like, "But you are though. But you are. Maybe you don't draw and that's okay. But maybe you're really funny or maybe—" MR: Some other space. Yeah. AR: Yeah. Maybe you're a good storyteller, you know. So, I find it's more of the people that want to reengage with their creativity. And I feel like that's just, like I said, a lot of the conversation I'm having with people a lot lately, but they have this weird relationship maybe with drawing. Maybe they doodled a little bit, maybe they didn't, but they know that the way that they kind of learn traditional note taking just doesn't work for them. And they're trying to see what they can do to get back to adding a little bit more creativity into their learning space, right. And having to do that. MR: How can they make it enjoyable? AR: Exactly. So I find that that's the—you know, that plus trying to encourage students and kids to do as well. But in terms of my more adult audience, it seems to be—you know, so some of it's like, you know, English as a second language teachers that are trying to be able to explain concepts. And I work a lot in technology, so I end up having a lot of people in cybersecurity and things like that in my community, and they're trying to figure out how to be able to explain more technical concepts and things like that. MR: That's pretty cool. AR it is quite broad, but it's like, you know, the leap that people think is really scary and trying to make that not as scary 'cause just getting people to share their first one. Just do one, just do one sketchnote and share it, that seems to be the biggest leap for people. 'Cause once you do that first one, you're like, "Oh, that wasn't so scary." You know what I mean? MR: Yeah. AR: So it's more about like that type of person who's like, "Oh, I'd like to try this." And in my book, I don't talk about any theory, I just drop a little brain guy throughout it. Like, "Oh yeah, did you know this thing, and there's this research?" 'Cause I want it just to get right to it and get people to put pen to paper quickly as possible. Because that's one thing that really frustrates me about nonfiction books is that most of them, unfortunately, are idea books. And I didn't want it to be a book like, "Sketchnoting is good, see you later." You know, be like, "Draw this thing, do this exercise." You know. And it's big and short enough that it is hopefully not overwhelming for people, you know? Like, it was twice as long and I just cut it and cut it and cut it. And then anything that I felt was a little bit advanced, I was just cut. I just like, nope. Or when I was doing my beta reading and people were getting confused, I was like, "Okay. Too advanced, cut it, cut it." MR: Well, you know, save those things for your second book, I guess for the advanced students who move in part two, right. You can put those in a second edition. Or not a second edition, but another book for those who wanna proceed to level two. AR: Yeah. Yeah. So I really wrote it in the sense of trying to handhold people through the process and to cut down that learning curve as much as I possibly can, because I feel like I was just encountering so many people that were like, "Oh, I could never do that." And I'm like, "But you could. You definitely could." And trying to show people in a really low barrier to entry, non-threatening way that that it's possible, right? So, the first thing that I walk in through in the book is like, "Just draw a line. You did it." The book's very cheer leadery. I'm like, "You got this." You know. 'Cause I think what happens is people look at beautiful sketchnotes by yourself or me, and they're like, "Oh, I can never do that." You know, I'm like, "But you can't compare your beginning to my 10 plus years in, right? MR: Right. I tell people that too. AR: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I love it when people can see the—like, "This was my first one. This was my first one." And they can compare from that space rather than, "Oh, well, if they look at Ashton's, oh my God, I could never create that." And I'm like, you know, I try to tell people, I'm like, "But I've been doing this for so long. And I do so many." I think I recorded over 600 presentations just last year. So like, that's a lot. MR: It's a lot of practice. AR: That's a lot. MR: Lots, yeah. AR: That's a lot, you know. If you did 600 in a year, you'd be pretty good too. Like, maybe even better than mine. You know what I mean? MR: Right. There might be something in you that we don't even know about because you haven't explored it. Right. But it's never fair to compare your first shot to my finished product after years and years of practice. It's not a fair comparison and it shouldn't be. AR: Yeah. I wish I would've read this before I published my book, or I would've put it in it, but there's a book called "Find Your Artistic Voice by Lisa Congdon. And in it, she talks about the beginner's gap. And when I read it, I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is like exactly what I've been thinking about this whole time." But she put it in these concise, beautiful words, but there's where you wanna be, right? "I want my stuff to look like Ashton's or Mike's or whoever," right? But then there's your skillset, and your skillset doesn't match where you wanna be. So there's this huge gap in between. So what happens is that, because they're like, "I want my skills to match this." But they don't, they don't close the gap. They don't do the practice and the work to get to the point where their skills are developed that it could look, you know, in their own style or in their own whatever, right. That's where see and I get saddened by when people are at that stage in the very beginning, but they see where they wanna go, and they just stop before they even start trying. You know. They're like, "I can't, I'm never gonna be like that. I want my—" Or they'll try it and they'll be so unhappy with it because it doesn't match their expectation of reality in their mind, right. Like, "Oh, I want it to look like this and it didn't, so I give up." Right. So, my part with trying to put this book together is like, how can I help close that gap just even a little bit and allow people to get a little bit of success so that they feel like then they can continue to develop their skills? 'Cause people ask me all the time, like, "How did you get to the point you are? And I'm like, "Just practice." Like, it's not a sexy answer, unfortunately. MR: Yeah. Just kept going. Yeah. AR: But I just did it and did it, and they were bad and they were messy and they were not beautiful. You know what I mean? But even though when I go back and I look at my earlier stuff and how messy, and they looked like they still served a purpose for the people or for myself. So it didn't really matter. Like we were talking about like, you know, sometimes the messier the better too, right? MR: Mm-hmm. AR: But I do teach aesthetics because people care about that. Because if I just said, "It doesn't matter what it looks." No one would do it. They'd be like, well, if it s mess—like I want it to look nice. So I definitely do teach that. But with trying to infuse "it doesn't matter" at the same time. It's okay if it's messy. Yeah. MR: Sort of like, it's good enough for where you are now, and let's keep going. So it's like you have that far away goal of it needs to look like that thing, but I know that's gonna be difficult, but what I did today is good enough for a first step and for today and tomorrow I'll get a little tiny bit better, and the next day I'll get a little tiny bit better and then I'll backtrack and then I'll get back and get back to normal and, you know. Sort of like, no, if you let people know that it's gonna be a journey. It's like setting expectations so there's not an expectation like, "Well, I'll do this for an hour and I'll be as good as someone who, you know, done 600 pieces in a year." That's not a fair comparison. So again, it's almost like resetting perspective around what's a reasonable expectation for you. AR: Absolutely. MR: That's what we're doing in a lot of ways, which is, I think it's good. That's good. Because there's a lot of places where that mindset is helpful, not just in the work we do. So, it's really cool. AR: Yeah. I'm nervous to say this to you, Mike, but I will say I almost feel like my book might be a precursor to your book. There's a few things in there that are similar, but I don't know if you feel the same way, but feel it's a bit of the— MR: Well, I'm a big believer in lots of books existing because I think there's a lot of voices that exist and not everybody is in the right place to hear just one book. And a lot of times a different person at a different time and a different way is the right solution for that person. So I'm a big believer in, hey there's a lot of people that don't do anything yet. We need a lot of books that reach in every direction. So that very may well be that someone would maybe process through your book and then "I wanna go to the next level, or I wanna just see a different voice. Oh, I like how Mike does it. For me, that fits for me. I'm gonna follow that path." Or, "I'm gonna choose this other book because that makes sense to me." And I think that's good to have options 'cause Not everybody is the same. And to expect them to be all the same and just use one resource is not realistic, right? AR: And I want the listeners to know how great you are. So I'm gonna just talk about you for a second. I was very nervous to put this book out, and I felt like I needed your thumbs up of approval because you're the dude that coined the term sketchnoting. And when I was writing this book, I was really worried because I'm like, "I didn't create this word. You know, I try to make that very clear every time I talk to anybody, I'm always like, "Mike Rohde, Mike Rohde, Mike Rohde," always talking about you all the time. Because it can be very scary to put out work like this and you don't know how it's gonna be received. And when I got on that call with you earlier this year, you were like, "The more the merrier." And I'm like, oh, that makes me feel so good because it does feel like we—you know, the visual thinking community is like, we're worldwide, but tight-knit, you know? And I've experienced that and it's the best community ever. And I think because we are so caring for each other is like, we wanna make sure we're doing things in like the most respectful way possible. And you know, I felt so—I was just like, I'm on cloud nine after I got off that call with you because you were like, "The more the merrier. I love it." You know, and exactly kind of the things you just said too. And I think that's like, having that sort of abundance mindset is just like such a beautiful thing and such a asset to this community. So I really appreciated your kindness because it definitely feels like you know, from the outside, it's like—it's a funny thing when you're putting something like this together. I'm like, "No, it's not the Sketchnote Handbook, but it's like, you know, I'm just trying to do my thing and just share what I've learned over all these years too." And yeah, it can be a funny thing. So just shout out how great you are. I really appreciated that. MR: I'm glad that I made your day that day and it is what I believe. And I think it's really important that we—I just always come back to there's so many opportunities. When you fight over one opportunity, it's like there's so many opportunities to do the work to encourage people. There's a whole population of people that don't do this. We've only scratched the surface and reached a tiny little fraction even now after 10, 15 years, right? AR: Oh my gosh. MR: And then there's more people getting born every day that don't know about this stuff. Though it is, you know, having an impact in schools. The funny story I could tell here, I don't if I've told this on the podcast before, is I have a 14-year-old daughter in middle school. Last year when she was 13, she came home and said, "Hey dad, they're teaching Sketchnoting in my class. And I told the teacher that she wrote the book on sketchnoting and she didn't believe me." And then I told her that she should go to the library because she knew that I'd sent books there. And the teacher came back and said, "You're right. He did write the book." And she was all real proud that I had a book in this school. AR: That is amazing. Oh, that's the best. That's awesome. MR: So they do get exposed to it, at least in our school. I mean, it's very spotty, all over the country. But I do know school teachers especially get really excited because , you know, when you think about what you're doing with this visual note-taking with sketchnoting is that you're encouraging kids who would normally doodle anyway in a lot of cases. AR: Exactly. MR: To do something productive with it, to use it as a way to focus your attention and to capture ideas. So that's a win. And you know, as you do it, you realize your students actually absorb and understand better and can remember more. So for a teacher, this is like the magic thing, right? How could you not wanna to do that for your students, right? AR: I know, right? How is everybody not doing this, Mike? Right? MR: Yeah. Yeah. So teachers are huge fans and I'm a huge backer of teachers. I haven't done a lot of work with school districts. Through the pandemic, I worked with on school district, but I know that they're out there and I'm excited when I do hear from them. And sometimes I get opportunities to come and speak to their schools. And that's really fun for me because then it brings it full circle to see, okay, it's having an impact on teachers which are having an impact on students and they're getting this option, right. And it's not for everybody. There's some students that doesn't fit with, I understand that. But the ones who do, that could be just a way. I get messages all the time, "Hey, I was a student in university, and using sketchnoting help me survive in my studies." Well, that's what it's all about, so. AR: Yeah. And I think, you know, just overarching, there is so much room in this community, the sketchnoting the graphic recording, the live illustrate , whatever it is, however you want to kind of follow that path, I think there's so much room, and I think you're right in terms of scratching the surface. If this is something that you wanna do or get into. Like even at my workshop, my live in person workshop I did last or I guess week in a bit ago now, you know, there was a woman there and she was like, "Is there room for me?" And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, there is room for you." Like the way that I see it is when people experience the value of it, they want more of it. And then eventually, there's not gonna be enough people who do it professionally. There's just more to go around and the more people experience the power of it, the more it's gonna be required and desired in meeting places and at events and things like that. So I think there is a lot of room for new and upcoming people in this space too, no matter how—there could be hundreds of people out there just doing sketchnoting in classrooms. We need that, we need people who are advocating for it in there you know, so that it—it's just like you said, it's not gonna be for everybody and that's okay, but just like as an option, right. And we know how valuable it is. So, you know, there is so much room in the community for sure. MR: Yeah. I think that's true. Well, this feels like a really good natural point then to shift to what are the tools that you like to use? Let's start with analog first and go to digital. You probably use both, I suspect. I'd just love to hear. AR: I definitely have a pre and post-COVID world story when it comes to— MR: Yeah. Let's tie that in there. AR: Yeah. Well, so pre-COVID, I was 100 percent paper, markers. And then I had started practicing some digital, 'cause I thought at some point someone might ask me, "Hey, do you do digital? "And I'd be primed and ready to go. And then of course, COVID is like, "You are forced to do digital, Miss." Which for me actually was a blessing in disguise because I was traveling so much, having little kids. It was getting a lot. MR: That's tough. AR: So COVID in a sense was a beautiful blessing in disguise 'cause I've still been able to retain some of those clients, and they're doing it in person, but I'm just zoomed in and they're just showing my screen, and it's a beautiful thing. So, of course Neuland, everyone talks about Neuland. The best. What do you say? You know, they're number one. Even for those first one or two years, I just used sketcher markers. That was a beautiful stepping stone. I am scent sensitive, so I think Neuland was a beautiful choice. Not just because the quality is there, but because it's scent free, and that's really important to me. Like, if not, I'd be getting a headache every day I worked and that wouldn't be a good time. So yeah, definitely, Neuland for the win. I do use a little bit of Posca pens here and there, just for highlighting on things. But it—oh. MR: Those are paint markers, right? Am I right? AR: Yeah, they're acrylic paint markers. Unfortunately, they're not refillable. I did get the Neuland acrylics. I don't know if they still sell them. I don't know. I think maybe. MR: I'm not sure. AR: But I did have a bunch of those, but I find the Posca pens just a little bit more vibrant. The consistency is really nice and smooth. So I do usually have a few of those on hand. But that makes up the majority. That's analog set for sure. And of course, like I probably own like every Neuland pen they have because of, you know— MR: They have a pretty wide variety. Yeah. AR: Yeah. And the bullet tip outliner is my favorite because— MR: Me too. AR: — it doesn't matter how you hold it, you can make a mark and it's gonna be a consistent line. I have a lot of the outliner bullet tip. MR: That's my choice in the small and the large, both sizes and so. AR: There you go. There you go. Love it. That's awesome. Yeah. And then for digital, I'm actually a Microsoft girl. MR: Okay. AR: I feel like I'm in the minority over here. MR: Yeah, it's definitely a minority. I think, you know, Android users probably feel the same way. AR: Yeah. So when I was looking for a drawing device, even though I like I said, I do own like every Neuland marker out there, but I also do strive to be a bit of a minimalist. So I was looking for a device that I could do multiple things on. When I found the Microsoft Surface, I was like, it's perfect 'cause it's my computer and it's my drawing tool. And I've never owned an Apple product in my life. So I don't have anything against Apple. I'm sure they're great. Everyone seems to love them, but in terms of like a learning curve, I was like, I just want something that can be all in one. MR: Yeah. That's the way you think. AR: Yeah. Just do the thing and not do with the apps and all the stuff. MR: That makes sense. I think that makes complete sense to me. AR: Yeah. So I started, I think—I can't remember when I got my first surface, it was like maybe 2018 or something like that. But I didn't draw on it a whole lot. Like I said, I was practicing a little bit. But I also invested in a Microsoft Studio. So it's what I'm talking to you on right now. And it's basically like drawing on a TV screen. It's very big. MR: Yes. AR: Because I was getting—the first year of the pandemic I was doing a lot and just being hovered over a small device was just not a good time. So, you know, I was trying to find something out there. I looked at a couple of different options. But when I found the Microsoft Studio, I was like—or the Surface Studio, I guess it's called. I was like, yeah. It's an investment, but I'm very, very happy that I made it. So yeah, it allows me to draw and be able to move my arm around and do lots of things, and not be crunched over a small device. MR: Yeah. It probably feels a little bit like more of a one-to-one relationship to the paper and pens that you had been doing, right? So it's sort of the same scale. I mean, it's more that scale, so— AR: It's more, yeah. It's not as big, but not as small as like a iPad or something, right. So it's probably like four iPad size or something like that. If you were to— MR: Like a 27 inch monitor or something, or 30 inch? AR: I can't remember what it is, but it's pretty big. It's pretty big. And my program of choice is Sketchbook Pro. That's the one I started with. It's the one I use to this day. I'm sure there's other out there that are just as great. But what I usually tell people is just pick one and just do it. Just get through the learning curve. If it's Procreate on the iPad or if it's Microsoft, or if you're Microsoft or Android, and it's Sketchbook. I know they do have Sketchbook Pro for iPad as well, but you know, you just kind of have to pick one unfortunately, and just get through all the little funny things about it until it gets a little bit more intuitive. Because most of my work is live, and that's just kinda how my brain is trained at this point, I don't have time to do all the fancy pens anyway. So I really use one pen, the paintbrush and the eraser, of course. And use a million layers, and that's about it. When I'm doing it live, is very minimal in terms of all these drawing programs, they're amazing and like, so robust, but I really try to encourage people to just, you know, use it minimally. Just do like one or two pens to start and use it in a minimal way. And then you can always just play around and things like that. But yeah, that's my kind of program and setup of choice. MR: Interesting. Interesting. You're the first to talk about, I guess other than the GraphicWall, which is a product that Neuland makes which is like a roll of paper that you can use. I think maybe a few in the 14 season, someone may have mentioned a Cintiq. Which is more for illustration. I think it was—her name will come to me. She's a Welsh woman who uses this at home. And she has an interesting setup with a PC and a large Cintiq, I believe. AR: Oh, interesting. MR: So it's got a stylus. So for those who don't know, before the iPad existed, the Cintiq was like the boss on the block, right. And they made different size. They kept increasing the size. So basically, if I were to describe it, it's like a screen with touch sensitivity. It comes with a dedicated pen, which has a pen tip and an eraser. And basically, what you would do with it, is you'd open up Photoshop and you'd use Photoshop and choose your brushes and stuff and use layers. And so it's like the pre Procreate, I guess, right. It's very expensive, very clunky. You don't really take it any place. It's stuck to your desk. So, you know, if that's the way you work, that's great. If you work in a studio where everything stays in place, it's great. You know, the beauty of the iPad or the Surface, and smaller surfaces and these other devices is you can pick 'em up and go to the cafe or sit in the back of a room and do the work. And it just freed up, you know, the ability to do more with this processing power and the screen resolution and the pen resolution really is matched where those things were for a couple years, so. AR: Yeah. I do have a smaller Surface, like the laptop style and, you know, came in really handy when I had to do an event last week and managed to plug me in and project it on a giant screen in the room. So that was pretty cool. And the setup was like less than 30 seconds. Not gonna lie, that was pretty awesome 'cause usually when you're doing on paper, you're like, okay, I gotta get there early. I gotta get all my board set up, gotta get it all ready. I'll just say there's pros and cons to both. MR: Right. I agree. AR: There's pros and cons to both, right. So you kind of have to weigh what those pros and cons are, and then pick what's gonna work best for your event or whatever it is that you're doing. But yeah, the portability of an iPad or a Surface or something is really beautiful. And you can just pick up and go and plug in or like you said, go to the coffee shop and do your thing or what have you, but if I'm doing like a long day like virtual event or something, it's very nice to have my big Surface Studio, that's for sure. MR: Yeah. It's nice to have options in your case, right? You've got the small portable, you've got the larger scale. You can always revert to paper if you know you wanted to do it that way. AR: Absolutely. MR: I mean, you've got three options right there. AR: Yeah. I have a document camera, I use that quite a bit for different things. So if I'm hosting a workshop online or if I'm doing stuff, I usually do it on paper with my document camera so people can see the marks that I'm making. I think that's a little bit more important when you're teaching a workshop, you're doing something like that so people can see those marks, whereas they don't see them on the digital surface. MR: Yeah, yeah. AR: So it's nice to be able to have the flexibility of both. And, you know, I didn't just wake up one day with all of these tools. I just accumulated them over time. MR: Yes. Over time. Yeah. AR: Right. One year I buy this, the next year I bought that, tight. So, yeah, don't feel like you need to have all of those things either. MR: That's a great tool set and it's good to have some variety. So if someone's listening in and maybe they think the same way you do this will encourage them to explore different directions. That's good. AR: Yeah. Definitely. MR: Well, let's shift into tips now. So every episode we try to have something practical for those who are listening. We collect 'em all at the end of the season and we put 'em in an all the tips episode, of course. What are the three tips, or you can go more than three if you want to, but three tips you might say to someone who—I always frame it like this. Someone's listening, they're individual thinking, but they feel like they're in a bit of a rut or they're on a plateau and they just don't know how to get out of where they're at, and they would use a little encouragement. What would you tell that person? AR: Right. Yeah. Well, I've been having a lot of conversations lately with—I'm just gonna talk from like a beginner perspective, maybe that isn't— MR: Okay. Yeah, that's fine. AR: You know, we'll just talk about that for a second because I've been, of course, like talking to so many people that are like brand new to this, and there seems to be a really big leap between live and not live. So when I teach it, when I talk about it, I always go in with the assumption that they're going to do it live. So I talk about, "Well, you don't have a lot of time, so do this. You don't have a lot of time, so do this." But what I'm finding is that people—that is actually like quite a large ask. Like, learn all these skills, do all the listening thinking, and do it live. Like do it right now. So I've been really working with people to encourage them to do whatever you need to do. Make notes on sticky notes, do the traditional way you would capture, type them out. Do whatever you need to do to get the information and then you can always create the sketchnote later. It's great, yeah, to do it in the moment, but if that is like too much of an ask and it feels too scary, give yourself permission to capture in a way that you feel comfortable and with the idea that you're going to create a sketchnote of it later. So maybe the purpose of creating the sketchnote is a little bit different. It's less about the immediate understanding, which is one of the things that I love about sketchnoting and visual thinking in general is that, making it so it's you have that learning in the moment. So you know, you're gonna be doing your learning maybe a little bit later when you're creating your sketchnote. But I've just been having to give people a lot of permission lately, like, "Don't worry about doing it live, do whatever you want, then create it," right? And then you can focus on the aesthetics or the things, or if you're doing it digitally, you can move things around and you can feel it. You know, 'cause if you create one and you feel good about it, you're gonna do another one. But if you do it live and it's clunky and it's messy and you feel horrible about it, you're not gonna do it again. Or it's gonna be a really difficult to kind of get back to it. You know, I think we have this idea that it always has to be live. And I think especially when people are new, that is a big ask. And it doesn't always have to be, right. Like, when I got into it, that was my default, and that's just what I do. And now I'm just like so in tuned to it that I feel like I—you know, we forget that that isn't gonna come and there's like a little too scary for some people to just learn all the things now do it live, you know? So I would say that, you know, however you need to create it, do that. Even if it's live, that's okay if it's not live. One thing that I don't know, maybe is a little controversial, but I'm gonna share this one, something that I've been thinking a lot about lately is what might be considered like cliche drawings. So I gave the example, I've got like a light bulb. And I think because I'm working with beginners so much right now, is that I've really been leaning in on the idea that cliches are okay. Like, drawing something that might be considered a cliche, I think is awesome. Because I think it's that leap again, right? If you've been in this community for a long time, you're likely challenging yourself, like, "Oh, how could I draw this to explain this concept? Or bring these ideas together into like—" I know he had Dario, he does these like beautiful visual metaphors. MR: Metaphors, yeah. AR: Right. Like how we can visualize these concepts. And I think that is beautiful thing. But I think for people that are newer, that's just like too much. They can't even think about that 'cause they don't even know how to draw a light bulb yet. You know what I mean? And, you know, the light bulb icon saved me because like I said, I'm not joking. I drew one on everything I did for years because I felt confident in drawing a light bulb. There was always an aha moment or something I wanted to stick out on the page, and that's where I would put my little light bulb. So I think like leaning in and those basics or things that might be considered cliches, I think that's okay. I think we can always be challenging ourselves and how we wanna draw things, but leaning in on some of those like rudimentary or basic drawings of how people who've been doing it for a while, I think that's totally fine. Because you have to start somewhere, right? You can't just like, oh, I'm gonna go from not knowing sketchnoting at all, now I'm gonna create these really complex drawings. There's has to be this ladder or this stepping stone approach. So if you needed permission to draw something that might be considered a cliche, I highly encourage it. MR: Yeah. Well, Dario always says that, you know, metaphors is the next level. So the audience he's going after are people that feel confident about the cliche stuff, but they wanna rise up to another level. And that's cool, right. AR: I love that. Yeah. MR: Maybe for many people, the cliches are just fine for the audience and the work they do, and they never feel the need and not doing it professionally. Like, it's fine. AR: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think, yeah, it's beautiful to have that opportunity kind of like step up your next—because I'm like, you know, I'm in a space, like I don't wanna keep drawing the same thing over and over again. Like, that's not a good time. I wanna challenge— MR: For you, it's something, a challenge. Yeah. It's good for— AR: Something that I wanna do, but yeah, someone who is more new or even just have been doing it for a year or two or, you know, it can be—you know, just remind yourself, don't make this more complicated than you need to, especially when you're doing it live. Like just, you know, building that visual vocabulary over time and starting with something that might be considered a cliche, you know. And hopefully, you get into that not comparing mode, right. We already talked about it could be a tip of course of really trying not to compare—you know, like when I went to the 2015 Austin, Texas, it was like, I really was on this really funny line of intimidation and inspiration. And when you're in intimidated, can you flip it upside down and turn it into inspiration instead. Just threw another tip in there for you too. Maybe the last thing I'll just mention, which maybe feels like an off topic from what we've talked about so far, but one thing that I tend to spend a lot of time on is letters. And if you have nice clean letters, your sketchnotes gonna look awesome, no matter if you don't have a lot of drawings on it or a lot of drawing elements like lines and containers and things. So I spend unfortunate amount of time with people to try to just help them clean up their letters a little bit. Because I always find that people have this really funny relationship to their handwriting. It's like, you love it, you hate it. It's in between. It's a funny thing with people's relationship with their handwriting. So you almost have to get people—you have to get comfortable with like, "This is my handwriting. I don't wanna embrace my own style, but I'm just gonna like, try to clean things up a little bit." Every time you make a letter, it looks the same every time. Or picking up your pen and doing like, things like that. Because there's so much content that's always captured, if you feel really confident about your letters, then everything else will just go from there. But every time you go to write something down, you're feeling not great about it, then you know, that's like—I guess like I'm just in this head space right now of how do we just encourage people to do more, have a good experience. And if you have nice clean letters, then I think you'll have a more positive experience with it too. So I think all of my years in early childhood education also primed me for this work too 'cause my letters were pretty decent going into it, so I literally had to practice them and all that good stuff. It maybe a bit of off topic from what we've talked about, but I just wanted to mention it 'cause it's something that seems to be coming up for me a lot lately with people. MR: Yeah. I think one of the practices I did, I haven't done this for a long time when we did workshops in person, was I had people do sketchnotes with no drawings. All they could do is lettering, and they could make it bigger, they could do all kinds of stuff with it, but it had to be a letter. And then you start to realize like, well actually letters are really drawings at some degree once you get to a certain scale. So you're technically breaking the rule, but you're not breaking the rule, which is fun when people realized it. And maybe that's an exercise I need to reintroduce, I don't know, but. AR: Yeah. No, it's a good one. I always say like letter or letters are drawings in the skies. Exactly, what you said basically. If you can write letters, you can draw. It is pretty darn foundational sketchnoting getting the information down and finding that speed where you can capture quickly, you know, but it's still fairly legible. It's this kind of song and dance. I always kind of end up talking about lettering and stuff a lot in the beginning when I'm with people. Which, you know, may not be the most exciting thing in the world, but it's pretty darn important. So I'm like, "Just bear with me. Let's just get through this and develop the skill a little bit before we kind of go into drawing." 'Cause I feel like people, they see it and they go immediately to drawing. They're like, "Oh, I just wanna draw stuff that's exciting." And in my book, I put little, "draw little icons," I put at the very end of the book. It was very intentional why it's at the end of the book because I didn't wanna start it with it because then you need to get some of that foundational stuff down first before you—'cause if you just learn a bunch of icons and none of the other stuff, you know, like how ideas connect together and all of that, then you know, it's not gonna be as beneficial. And you might burn out quicker because you're putting too much pressure that you have to draw a bunch of stuff. And it's not about that at all. MR: Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Another good observation. I don't know if it quite qualifies as a tip, but I guess it is. AR: Sure why not? Lots of tips. MR: Pile another one on there. AR: Yeah, that's what I got for you today. That's what I got for you today. MR: Good. Well, that's great. That's really encouraging. Well, this is the point in the podcast where we ask how people can find you so they can make connections, say hello, check out your book, look at your work. All that kind of stuff. Our community always loves new people. And so, what would be the best place, places for people to find you and to see your work? I got a few different ways. So my business is Minds Eye Creative, so mindseye,creative.ca 'cause I'm in Canada. All things Minds Eye Creative, that's where you can find me. And some of examples of my work for clients and things like that. And then Sketchnote.School is all things learning how to sketchnote. I've got my newsletter. I sent out a Sketchnote tip every Saturday. And you can learn about my book on there, "The Beginner's Guide to Sketchnoting," and you know, it's on Amazon and all those places too. MR: Cool. AR: And information about my community on there at Sketchnotes School as well. And I recently rebranded my YouTube channel. I'm gonna try to redo some YouTube things to Sketchnotes. So doing more under Sketchnotes School these days than Mind's Eye Creative. MR: Cool. Well, those are good two or three good places. We'll look for you on YouTube. If you wanna send along you know, some links to me, we'll make sure that they get in the show notes. But we all of course, do our research here and try to provide pretty detailed shownotes so people can find things, so AR: Absolutely. I love that. MR: That's perfect. Well, thanks so much Ashton, for being on the show. It's been great to talk with you and hear your story and just hear your unique perspective and how you approach things and all the way down to the tools that you use that are a little different. That's really cool. I think it's important that we see variety and that we're not a homogenous thing. We're a variety where it's a community of people and all have different perspectives. And that's great because we need those perspectives to keep growing and improving the work we do. So thanks for being part of that community and the work you do. AR: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Had such a good time. MR: Good. Well, for everyone who's watching or listening, it's another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Until the next episode, talk to you soon.

In this episode, Rev Andy Gray, who obsessively drew as a kid, shares an incredible 30-year journey of graphic designing and how his art has evolved to become an editorial cartoonist, coach, and graphic illustrator. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Andy Origin Story Andy’s current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Andy Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Andy's Website Andy’s LinkedIn Andy's Instagram Andy's Facebook Benjamin Felis Books by Quentin Blake Tom's Inky thinking Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Neuland markers Graphic Wall Ballpoint pens Color pencils Camera back back Rock N Roller trolley Tips Practice using long-form, business-based YouTube videos. Network with other people. Photograph your work and link to it. Practice the "Something about" technique. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production, and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everybody, it's Mike and I'm here with Andy, a.k.a Rev Gray. Andy, how are you doing? Andy Gray: I'm doing all right. Thank you. MR: It's good to have you. We were connected by Patty and Grant, good friends of mine who actually just finally met in Holland, just this fall. So really good to make that connection and have people out there. I've always got people out there suggesting people I'd have on the show. So thank you, Grant and Patty. Probably more Grant than Patty, I suppose. But Rev, why don't you tell us who you are and what you do, and then go right into your origin story? How did you get here doing what you're doing, and all interesting tidbits along the way? AG: Yeah. We're gonna go back a long time. So who I am, and what do I do? I'm a graphic recorder and I'm a children's and grownup book illustrator, and I illustrate magazines as well. Think of me—I don't know whether you've ever heard of a guy called Quentin Blake. MR: Quentin Blake, I don't know that name. It sounds familiar, but I don't know him. AG: If I say "Charlie in the Chocolate Factory." MR: Oh yeah. AG: And I say Roald Dahl, and I say, the person who illustrated Roald Dahl then immediately you start to get to know who Quentin Blake is. MR: Got it. AG: He's just turned 90, actually. MR: Wow. AG: And so if you take his style and you mix it with people from the other side of the pond, 'cause obviously I'm a Britt, people from the other side of the pond from your side say, "Oh, you look just like the New Yorker." So think of me as an editorial cartoonist illustrator, and you won't be far off. I'm also a Church of England Minister. I've been in youth and children's ministry for decades, and I plant churches and stuff, and I train people and coach people. And basically, I try and help everybody to live life in their fullest. I'm also a DJ, magician, a dad, husband, and general mad person. I do everything I can. I get bored easy. MR: Well, you fit right in the Sketchote Army podcast and in the Sketchote community, 'cause we're all quirky. I've been reminded of that when I just came back from Laiden, from the International Sketchnote Camp there. And loved everybody. You know, we're really community minded, but we're all quirky in our own ways. So you fit right in. AG: Fantastic. Yeah, I've kind of got this target, and next time you do something like that, I wanna be there. So I was too late to take advantage this time, but I'll be there next time. MR: Sounds good. Well, why don't you get into, like, where did you start from? You can go back as far as when you were a little baby, I suppose if you remember. AG: We were talking just before we started rolling, weren't we? Okay, so this will make some people either laugh or they'll be sick. If you're eating at the moment, do stop. Have you finished your mouthful? Excellent. Good. Right. Because my mother tells me very reliably that the first time that I really I got into art was when I was in my cot when I was about two years old. In fact, probably younger, actually, I was just a toddler. So maybe about 18 months. And when she put me down for a nap in the afternoon, I would take the contents of my nappy and I would smear them all over the walls. So, you know, it is early start in my expressionist period using brown pigment and various shades. So funny enough, she stopped putting me down after that. I guess then I mean, I've only just in the last what? In the last five years, been diagnosed having autism or being autistic. I'm actually autistic because we prefer Asperger's or neuros-spicy. Which makes sense for a lot of the things which I'm gonna talk to you about. But I couldn't sleep as a little kid, which is quite normal for autistic people, you know? And so, I'd wake up about 1:00 in the morning and I'd have pens and paper, and I remember so often I just would be sound asleep for about four hours. So I'd get my pens and paper and I would just draw continually for about four hours. And then mum would come in and she'd see me that I'd be falling asleep with pens and paper all over my bed. And so, the next thing would happen the next night. So I obsessively drew, and that's kind of like always been my story. I couldn't draw that well. I used to always be jealous of my friends at school. They could draw really well and I couldn't, probably bit rubbish till I was about 14. And then it started with me copying Bino. Have you ever come across Bino? If I say comic, the problem is, it's sort of like around the world, comics are kind of like superheroes and stuff. In the UK, we talk about comics and we're talking about sort of like cartoon characters in strip cartoons you might call them. MR: Yes. We had this in the newspaper. I don't know Bino, though. That's not a character I know. AG: Right. Okay. So it is that kind of style. So Dan de Bino UK people know exactly what I'm talking about. So think for you, it's the kind of simplistic style that you get with peanuts. MR: Yes. AG: And we have magazines full of that which is just fun. And I used to copy Backstreet Kids which people will know the name of over here, and I could get it so that I could draw them without needing to reference them. And so, I just did that and, you know, covered all my school books in Backstreet Kids and other illustrations. And then you weren't supposed to, I went to a Deb Posh private school, and you weren't supposed to do that. And I did. It wasn't naughty, but I just didn't get told off for it 'cause they like recipe me work as well. So I drew all of this stuff. And then when I was 14 like I said, I couldn't really draw. And then my little sister was born and my dad took me away. And when he took me away, he I bought a book o pencil drawing pencils. So we just done a whole day for two or three days, and I just started drawing from that book. And suddenly, literally overnight, it clicked and I was able to draw anything I wanted in pencil, you know, realistically or not realistic, however I wanted. So the first gig came in maybe about six months after that from somebody, and she wanted a picture of Peter Rabbit. So I drew it and she paid me 10 quid. I thought, "Ooh, this is easy." MR: Wow. AG: So, yeah. So back in the '80s, 10 quids is nothing to be shy of. So I did bits and pieces here and there, but I really wanted to be an editorial cartoonist. So when I got married in my early 20s, I self-study the style of how to be an editorial cartoonist. And it went really well. But I ended up working so hard. I was also working for a company called British Gas. And it was a regional office, and this, it was the size of a warehouse and it was just open-plan office space. So, if you can imagine what that was like and what that did, I was right in the middle of it, what that did to an autistic brain, not knowing it was autistic at the time. And I was trying to get this editorial cartoon business going. And we didn't have internet in those days. Do you remember that? MR: Yeah. AG: We didn't have internet, did we? MR: I was there. AG: In the very early '90s, I had a fax machine. I was dead proud. And that was it, that's all we had. And so, trying to get the business in was really hard. And although I sort of like did—you know, the newspaper did pick up for a couple of issues, that was it. And I ended up burning out really badly. And during that period, I couldn't have time off work with stress, somebody came to me and said, "Look, you know, find out what God really wants you to do." So I'm a Christian, like I said, I'm a minister. They said, "Find out what God really wants you to do." Within two weeks I'd worked out that really, "I need you to put the pens down," and just say, "God, what do you want me to do?" And within two weeks somebody came back and said, "Why don't you train for youth and children's ministry?" So it's like, "Hmm, all right then that sounds right." And it came from so many places, people saying it, they didn't know each other, so I thought, "We're gonna do it." So dived into going training and I sat in the lecture theater, listening to theology. And it's sort of like getting fairly bored. 'Cause theology is quite a boring thing, really. While everybody was taking notes, I didn't know taking notes. I learned how to mind map, I also learned memory techniques, and all sorts of other things. Just trained myself in the whole lot. But then when the thing interesting was happening, I just started drawing. And so, I didn't draw anything particular. I just drew in the same way as I used to drawing my school books. So that was great. And then I found myself drawing a little bit for the college 'cause they wanted little bits and pieces done. So that was okay. Then I went to go and be a youth and children's minister, and I found that the art stuff that I did then became what I was doing as part of my ministry. And so, that lasted for, I think about, we'll do rough figures about 10 years, and then I went to go and work for a Christian publishing organization. So they got about 10 million, 12 million pound turnover. And they did publishing as well as training people. So I trained people around the country and in the Northwest of the UK in working with young people and children and how to do it and how to help them get a life of fullness and all the rest of it. And they found out that I could draw. And so, they said, "Would you mind drawing a book for us?" "Oh, that's quite good. Draw a book for you". And they paid nicely for them. Oh, that's all right, isn't it? And they said, "Would you do some more drawing for us?" And so, I had this side hustle of drawing at the same time, and it all went through their book. So I didn't have to do any bookkeeping or anything. And that was very nice. At the same time, as we drew to the end of, I was doing more and more drawing for them. I was also learning how to be an entrepreneur and developing those skills of running businesses, but also lots of side hustles. So I got things going and I was trading mp3 players and all sorts of other things on the side. It was great. And then I got a calling to go and get a dog collar. So, you know, it's the whole dog collary thing to be a church minister besides just a youth and children's worker. So, for me, it wasn't really an upgrade, it was just a development of ministry, and I was doing something else, but I was gonna become a pioneer, an ordained pioneer minister, which means planting churches in interesting places like coffee shops and things like that, rather than just going running normal churches. And I knew that I didn't really wanna be in full-time, paid ministry because it ties you to the church. And I'm a minister for people who don't go to church. That's the kind of person I am. Anyway, I trained in theology. And while I was doing it, I went back to drawing at the back of the lecture theaters 'cause it's boring. I could write the papers, no problem, do the study and stuff. And then one day, 'cause I mean it was pretty small, things that we were doing, small cohort. It was only about 40 of us. And we were just really good friends. So I was about 40-odd at the time. And I was really good friends with the lecturers, you know, 'cause we all just got on together. It is that kind of format when you're doing this kind of training. And one of the lecture one day turned around, he said, "Would you draw what I say?" I said, "Sorry, what?" He said, "Would you draw what I say?" He said, "Well, yeah, instead of just drawing," he said, "I'd love to see what it looked like if you drew what I said." Oh, all right. So I drew what he said and he's like, "Oh, that's quite interesting." So I then just started drawing what people said. Instead of drawing sort of like—I mean, I dunno whether people are familiar with what you might call Christian art drawn and painted in sermons and the like, but it's usually quite squirly-worrly. And it's usually got hands in it and it's usually got a dove in it. Sometimes it might be the story and that's about it and it's art. But I wanted something else. So I started drawing art and then combining key phrases in there and making it part of the arts and doing that. And I just built on that. And then when I was ordained and I was a trainee vicar, if you like. So the best way of putting it, so cure it. Sometimes I wasn't lecturing , I wasn't actually leading, and I wasn't preaching. So I'd sit there bored again. I can't stand church. I'm a minister who hates church I get bored. That's why people love my sermons and my talks and the way I lead church 'cause I get bored quicker than anybody else does. So that's great. So I sat there drawing instead, and because I got in this habit of drawing what people said, I started drawing the sermon. And I would start by seeing, so we'd have a bit of a Bible story or a Bible passage, and then I'd draw the outline of that. Then I'd start putting in smaller elements of what was preached on within that bigger picture and where necessary adding words. Great. Did that for about 10 years, you know. And then I found that throughout all of this, with the theology side of things and stuff, people started saying, "Andy, can we have a copy, please? It'll help us remember." Brilliant. There's no skin off my nose, you know. So they'd take copies, then they'd share them around and all the rest of it. I did another job coming out of that because, after 10 years of church planting and all the rest of it, that was great. And then I decided that it was time to start moving away from being a paid minister. And I wanted to achieve being a self-supporting minister so that I wasn't tied to the whole—there's quite a lot of management involved in the Church of England now because you have to look after more than one church. And so, there's a huge number of meetings, and everything else. I thought that's not me. I have to sort of like, be freelance, if you like. So little bit of prayer, "What do you want me to do, God?" And answer came back looking to try and work towards being self-employed and stuff. And then what should I do? You know, be an illustrator. I'm not sure I wanna be an illustrator again. And then within two weeks of this conversation somebody came to me and said, "Andy, you don't remember me from college days 20 years ago. We were in the year below you. We've just found you on Facebook. Do you still draw pictures?" Well, oddly enough, "Yes. I've just started getting back into drawing pictures and being paid for it." "Oh, great. Could you illustrate our book for us, please?" " Don't wanna Illustrate books." Spoke to a mate of mine. He turned around, he said, "You gotta illustrate." He said, "You can do whatever God sends you." Oh, all right then. Okay, fair enough. I did this one book, and it's not stopped ever since. MR: One thing leads to another. AG: Yeah. Slowly the price has gone up. Every time I've finished one book, another book—I mean, I've got, I think it's eight projects sitting on my desk at the moment of books people want illustrating. It's a nightmare. Anyway, can't complain. So what happened was, though that as I got out of this, so this was what? This was five years back. And I dropped down to working for the Southwest of England, training people in churches and to talk about their faith. Fun enough. But carried on training people. And I've got a way of coaching and a way of styling how I train people. It's all the same thing. It's selling them the idea that they can actually do it. It's great. And so I can do that. During this time, I was illustrating more and more books. And then September last year, I realized that I'd started—the grant funding was running out this coming summer. So the summer is just gone. And I realized I'd have to leave even earlier than I thought before the money ran out. So I said to the guy who was my line manager at the time, I said, "In one week I've turned down 3000 pounds worth of money. I can't keep going like this. I think I have to leave early." He's a brilliant Christian man. He said, "I think you do actually excellent and we'll help you to do it." What? So like, oh great. All right. Okay. And I thought, "Well, I wanna see what God wants as well. So I said, "Okay, God, what do you want me to do next?" So illustration itself, I mean, I developed this very fast illustration style because the way of making ends, meters and book illustrates is you've gotta be fast and people have to like what you do. So I'd really gone to this point of really refining my art style into a very, very posh art style, which took ages to do, and was very pretty. And people said, "Yeah, that's really nice. I really like that." And I get paid for it. But it wasn't quick enough to make an income. And then we were just finished with the diocese, paid for us all to do coaching. Coaching, training. So I'm a trained coach. I'm not a coach, qualified coach 'cause I've not done the hours. But I'm a trained coach 'cause I've done the training. So take it as you leave it. So don't call yourself a coach, but you know how to do it. And during that time, we had to practice coaching each other. And there were two really significant things that came up. One of them we'll might mention later, which is something about phrasing coaching. So it would be good to come back to that because I think it's a top tip is that one. MR: Okay. AG: But the other thing was I was trying to work out how to make ends meet. And I was in this coaching session with this bloke. He was coaching me, I was just having fun. And I said I have to work out how to make ends meet. It was then I realized that I had to dump my style of being very posh and fast, very posh and nice and digging ages, charge more, much more, and drop back to the fastest speed that I developed when I was 18, 19, 20 years old of this editorial cartoonist. And it just so happened that the 20 years previously—20 years? 15 years previously, as I'd been doing the book illustrations, I got so fed up with posh illustrations what basically burned me out a bit on the illustration, that I picked up a book and this is gonna be one of my recommended books by a guy called Quentin Blake to basically for the people who couldn't draw. Now I could draw, but what it did is it was so close to my style and I hadn't realized, I thought, well I'll read this book and you're drawing in it at the same time. It's brilliant. And you draw and you read at the same time, you draw what he tells you to. By the end of it, within 36 hours, my style had completely relaxed, and was 20 times faster than it was before. And I started putting it on Facebook and people weren't just going, "Oh, that's nice." They went, "Oh wow, that's so awesome." And I'm like going, okay, faster, people think it's awesome and I can charge more, brilliant. So that became my style. And you'll see how that's relevant in a minute because 12 months ago, not sure what I was gonna do next. I of course start praying, saying, "God, what should I do next?" You know, and said, "Oh, I give up. I've got no idea what to do next. It's your job." And within 24 hours, somebody gave me a call. I called him Matt Pritchard, and he gave me a phone call. And he said, "Andy", he said, "You drew for me 15 years ago a logo." And we've been in touch ever since. We're both magicians. He's much better than me. Much better. He's a member of the magic circle. I'm not. And he said, "Can you draw conversations?" I said, "Oh, don't know. I've got no idea. What do you mean?" And he said, "Well, have a look at the Bible project." So I went on there and said, well that's the kind of style. Okay, right. And he said, "Do you wanna have a go?" And I said, "Well, let me look into it and see if anybody else has done it now." So I thought, what could he refer to? And I thought, well, what is it? lsn't it a live illustration, maybe? So I looked it up and went, "Hang on, it's got a name. It's called graphic recording. I've been doing this for the last 30 years. What? And it's an industry. This is so cool." So I jumped in with Benjamin Felis' course 'cause I had no idea. So I like to learn fast. And because of doing all the artwork, and so, I built up some money in the business for training and stuff. So I bought his course. So props to Ben on that one. His main thing was that really helped me was the reference to three books. To a few books. And I saw a line finally between a TED Talk and what he was saying, how it was done. And I went, "Ah, I do do this already. It's not just called drawing in church, which I've called it for years. I can do it." So I've not even come across you by that point, you know? MR: Sure. AG: More conversation with Matt, and I said, "I'd like to do it on iPad 'cause then we can try it out and just link it through a video projector." And he said, "Well, I think it should be done on paper or on canvases or something. So I looked around, and well, you could do it on a big foam core board, but I thought, well, the people we are doing it with, were gonna be young people talking about faith and science and the link between the two. And I thought I can't draw it like that for you. Because they would feel guilty if they threw it away. Anyway, I said, we'll do it on iPad. Anyway, it was in January just gone that I was going to a conference, and I thought, "Well, I know they won't mind if I sit at the back. But I wanna do it a bit more than just on a piece of paper. I don't wanna draw an iPad. I can do it on paper and see what it feels like." So I got myself four pieces of foam cardboard, which is about A1 size on its side. But then I also got the paper and I used the foam call board as my board, a real lightweight board, and my previous easel of broker. So I bought myself a new easel dropped another a hundred quid on market pens and some paper. And I said to the guy, the tech guys that back said, do you mind if I just sit at the back with you? You know, it wasn't a big space. Only about 200 people there for a three-day conference and said, "Can I just sit at the back with you and just draw?" Anyway, so I did. Quick cut ahead, the result of doing that means that the main people presenting then found out what I was doing. The fact that I could draw, become really good friends. And I've ended illustrating for them and recouping about 5,000 pounds worth of work of them. That's beside the point, the graphic recording stuff. I've done books for them. They go internationally. So I'm an international illustrator, you see. I was at the back drawing and then somebody came up and saw what I was doing and they went, "Oh wow. Can I take a photo? I thought you were just doing normal Christian art, like everybody else's but this is different." And then I even had one person—so people start taking photographs and I've got these small pieces of paper, I say small, but A1s or landscape all over the place being drawn in this style. I do focus on the art first, but I was trying at that point to say it was kind of like there was a bit of a popcorn method going on. But I wanted it to be artistic. By that point, I hadn't quite managed to smush these two things together. You know, the style I used to do together with actually sort like trying to get data that people can hook in with. So I was like, "Oh, my word. Okay, yeah short Cushing photographs. For an artist, people taking photographs of your work is like, that's the best ever. You don't care about selling if you just, I mean, you want to sell stuff. You have people taking photographs, and you get excited. And then I asked this lady, come up, looked at this picture, and burst into tears. I thought, "By it, what I done now." And I said, why? She said, "I can never follow anything that's said in these sort of things. And I feel so guilty about it. What you have done have made it so that I can remember what was said." MR: Wow. AG: And one of the things that my friend guided me on—well another friend actually, I got too many millionaire friends and one particular millionaire friend said to me, when I was trying to work out what to do, he said, "Well, how does your art serve people?" And I said, "Well, I dunno, really." And digging around then we discovered that doing the art as the books is I help people tell their stories. So that's my tagline. But I realized that this person, I'd done an act of translation and later I found it was actually even similar to the way she reacted, was even similar to someone you get sign language if they're hard of hearing or deaf or deafened, because some people, they can't manage to remember what's said. And so, doing this meant that it wasn't just exciting, and oh, look, my words have been drawn. And more recently I've discovered a better word is interface. But we can come onto that one as well if you like. So anyway, so I thought, well, I've never managed to do nine hours a day for three days on an iPad. It would've done my head in. So we're gonna do paper. So I phoned up, I can't remember whether you've had him on or not, but Tom from Inky thinking? MR: No, I need to have him on. I need to have him. AG: He would be cool. He'll be cool. I'll link you later at another point. MR: Okay. AG: But they're one of two suppliers in the UK for Neuland products. MR: Hmm. Okay. AG: And I spoke to them, and he was really good. And after talking to him, I decided I was gonna actually invest in the graphic wall. MR: Yeah. I've heard that. AG: LW hyphen X, you know, this sounds very cool, but you can expand it in all sorts of things. I mean, I've got now got five panels, so I go out four meters by one and a quarter-meters tall. So this thing's huge. I've even got the winders on the ends now, so I can do 25 meters nonstop, which is just so cool. MR: And for those who are watching or listening who don't know what the GraphicWally, I think is, was the name of it. It's like— AG: Well, the GraphicWally is the little thing. MR: It's the little one. Okay. AG: It's quite narrow and small. I'm talking about the free-standing job basically. MR: Big guy. AG: If you take a flip chart board and basically, you just stack them for 4 meters. MR: Five AG: It's five. Yeah. That's what I've got. All right. And it just keeps going. It's awesome. MR: And I think it's got like a winder, isn't it? A roll of paper that you can continuously wind it. AG: It doesn’t unless you drop the funds on the new stuff, so. MR: Oh, okay. AR: So be aware this stuff isn't cheap. I think I've dropped about five grand on equipment so far. MR: Yeah. I think that's the key of the GraphicWally, is it's a smaller one. I think they intended it for a camera or something, right? AR: Yeah, that's right. MR: Because I know Ben Felis has it, and it's got like a crank. It's got a roll of paper on one side and a roll on the other. And it's sort of like old school film, you know, you would drag it across and take pictures. AG: Yeah. Well, if you 10 x that, literally 10 x it, you get what I've got now. MR: Oh God. AR: And the thing is that, I mean, this is a top tip for anyone wanting to go into graphic recording, go with looking like you know what you need to do. Now apparently, I might be wrong on this, but apparently Disney discovered this. So I go full lo place. So Disney they had a little bit of full feedback. Apparently, Disney, Europe, I think had some feedback. The people thought that it was dirty. So what they did, they got more cleaners in and people still said it was dirty. So they then put their cleaners in yellow jackets. Everybody said it was clean. One of the things that I've established in the past is a Ballgame Cafe. So a community Ballgame Cafe. I mean, I made the money through affiliate processes at Amazon to buy the ballgame for the Ballgame Café. Is great, and just left it there. So, community thing. But we recognized that if people came along to the cafe for the first time, 'cause the popup cafe and looked, I went, "Oh, look, you've got just a few games, haven't you?" They won't be impressed. In the end, we've got about 3000 pounds worth of games all through me raising entrepreneurial funds. So it all works. And raise these funds to buy all these games. So people came in, it's like a sweet shop, they went, "Oh wow." Got excited and then stayed. And it wouldn't have been in the same way. And, you know, take the tip from Disney. I mean, I heard about Disney later, but I've always had since then, make it look like you know what you're doing by having the right kit. The idea of all the gear and no idea isn't quite true. Because actually, if you go in and you've just got sort of like ropey stuff, you can have all the ideas and the, the professionals will look and go, yeah, I haven't got a clue. And so, you won't have that start of a 10 of them getting that first impression. You have a good set of kit, and they will look and say, you know what you're doing, and therefore they'll come with that mindset. It is called the Pygmalion Effect, I do believe. So look that one up. Quite interesting. So anyway, so I invested in this kit, went and did this gig elsewhere in the country for my mate Matt. And we first of all worked with those from primary school age up to about 11 years old. And it was brilliant. It was great fun. And then we did it again, and this time with teenagers. And the teenagers got well into the conversations. It was really deep, it was a really heavy day that they were talking about, science and faith and really digging deep. I mean, they did heavy lifting. And I just drew it. It was a bit more text than I liked on it, but it didn't matter. And we ended up with this really big board of that particular one was three and a half meters long with all of their conversations throughout the whole day. And illustrated all illustrated. And at the end of it, these 16, 17-year-olds came up and photographed their own work. MR: Wow. AG: And it's like, hang on a minute, you know, you have done really heavy lifting and you've been excited about taking photographs of this work at the end of the day. And the holy grail of a young person's phone is their photo albums. And it's like, I don't believe this. So it kind of like went on from there. Then I started drawing for different people and carrying on sort of like, 'cause I mean, once you've invested, I mean, at that point it was about 2000 pounds. MR: Now you have to use that stuff. AG: Yeah. I've gotta use it. You know, even if it just benefits people. And I discovered I started putting things on LinkedIn about, you know, sort of like what I was discovering on the way through learning stuff still out, you know, building up relationships with a number of people. So, you know, Grant was one of those people on the way through and Patty as well. And then there were other people. A guy called James Duro. Brilliant, brilliant chap. He worked in South Africa. He's just wonderful, wonderful man. And so, he's been doing it for 25 years. And Dario, I know you've had Dario on. MR: Of course, yeah. Dario. I've had in on, yeah. AG: Yeah. You've had him on. And he was just like really helpful. I didn't take part in his course. He just helped, which is just brilliant, you know? MR: Yeah. AG: So at some point I gonna be jumping in with him just to just pay for his course, say thank you for everything he's helped me with for free, you know? MR: Yeah. AG: And it was just been a right old journey. So in one sense, I've been doing this thing for 20, 30 years, and in another sense, I've been doing it for 12 months, which is bizarre. But I think for me, the most exciting thing was, you know, I did a very big gig on Thursday. So like just this last Thursday, gone, and they had sort of like these major, I mean, you've probably heard of BP and maybe Iceland. I dunno if you've heard of Iceland. MR: Yeah. AG: They had those kinds of people, really top-level people, and my top-level managers there at the same time. And there's a guy there from I won't say which big company it was, but the feedback you gave, I'm just gonna read this to you 'cause this actually kind of like encapsulates everything I'm trying to do. So remember, I'm trying to make art. So I'm coming from an artist's point of view. I'm coming from an artist's perspective rather than I'm trying to communicate. And we can talk about, actually no, you do do art. Don't care what everybody says about how we are not an artist. Yes, you are. And I'll tell you why. But this is what this guy said to me. He said, okay. So he said this, "What became more apparent to me through the day with the benefit of using illustration to help capture and enhance the message, creating a new perspective, and helping people make necessary connections to understand the story." So this was a day of virtual, nothing but data. And I was thinking, "How do I illustrate data?" And pictures were forming, so I just drew them. He said, "And although individuals may have taken away something different, it highlighted to me that a different perception of reality is often needed. People of the nervous system of any organization. Yet often the importance of people, their perception of reality and how they connect everything together is underestimated." So what I do is I turn what people are saying into art. I will use as few words as possible to make it make sense so that it creates a bit of a dissonance. People have to solve the puzzle. Because when you solve puzzles, you get endorphins. You then, this is how Wordle works. You then share it with somebody next. You say, oh, I solved it. And they go, oh, I've solved it as well. And then they talk about it. Then endorphins work and community works, and then it becomes human. And I realized at that point that from what I got the other day, I thought, that's what I'm doing. It's is interpretation, but even more so, it's interface between data and information, and even if it's told in story and creating an interface between that and people who are listening and watching, and it's making it more human. So in a world of AI, when we're going faster and faster towards AI, me going in with my analog tools of paper on purpose, 'cause it's a choice I've made, makes it so that it makes that stuff more human. And the more human we can make things, I think that's the way forward for the future. MR: I would think that because it's physical and it becomes more visceral, right? Like if you had done this on an iPad and even broadcast it on the same size screen, it might've had a similar impact, but there's something about that physical, like you can go up and touch it. Like those kids, those teenage kids can go up and touch their words that were drawn by you and maybe they can even feel the ink, right? You know, like theres something tangible about it, right? Because the other thing is so much of our world is intangible, right? It's these photons and pixels and bits that we have control of, but they can change or they can disappear at any moment. And that's aren't real are real. AG: One of real the big influences was when we had when Australian side paper or digital paper or digital. The team who's doing the school's work stuff sent me through one of their promo videos. And on it, one of the teachers, the head teachers from a previous session had said, what I love about this and this wasn't my drawing or anything else, this was pre-me getting involved, says that we spend so much of our time on iPads and screens to have the kids be able to come in and talk in and explore in an analog way. Is fantastic. So when it was being suggested to me by one of the other team members, oh, let's just do it on iPad. It was like, but then we're just going back to the thing that the teacher said was not the unique selling thing. So I thought, I've gotta do it on paper because it has to be unique. And that's kinda like, just captured me. I've always been, for the last 30 years, whenever the world goes in one direction, I go in the other direction on literally on purpose. So what are you all doing? We're not going digital. I'm not. So if somebody says, "Will you record this virtual? Will you do this virtual event for us digitally?" I'll go, "Nope." "We'll pay you money for it." "Nope." I'm only doing paper and I'm only doing in person. That's it. And I'm only doing it on big sheets as well. So if you don't like it, I'm not doing it. MR: Interesting. AR: Find your people, dig deep. MR: There's plenty of people who will do that work and do it well. So I mean, they can't find somebody you can recommend them. AG: I've got friends I can recommend, actually. MR: I would think so, yeah. AG: I do pass it on. That's if I can, anyway. MR: It's good to know your boundaries because then you can be really clear and you can really lean into the specific elements that you've chosen to work with, right? That's pretty cool. And obviously, like you said, that you, you're not a typical churchman, right? You're the vicar for the people who don't usually go see vicars. So this fits right into your personality, I would think. AG: Yeah. I lean into it. That and the autistic side I really lean into on purpose. And it's quite amazing how many people then talk to you about that kind of stuff and makes them realize that we've got a human face. Well, supposedly, anyway. MR: It's funny. Your story of discovering graphic recording is not so different from my discovery of graphic recording. I started exploring Sketchnoting. I had no clue, just like you, that this whole community and "industry" existed. And this was, you know, 10, 15 years ago, I just stumbled onto it and realized, you know, the stuff I was discovering myself and building Sketchnoting totally matched the same principles that they were doing. They simply did it large scale, in person. You know, maybe they were trying to be more neutral. A lot of graphic recorders just try to be interpreters, right? They don't leave an opinion. So yeah, that was a little bit different, but I mean, at the core of it, it was really similar. And then, I don't know, was it 15 years ago? I was invited to come to the IFVP in Pittsburgh since I was nearby and spoke to that group and then became really good friends with lots of graphic recorders and see the relationship. But it's kind of amazing that you can have these ideas and sort of practice them and only later stumble into like, "Wow, there's like this community." AG: Yeah. People pay for it. What? MR: Yeah. It's pretty exciting. AG: People pay for that. Okay, fine. MR: I could do that. AG: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I don't even need to think and I get paid for it. I'm great. You know, it's awesome. It's awesome. MR: So well, you know— AG: I just— MR: Go ahead. AG: Yeah. no, I was gonna say, I mean, I mentioned earlier, didn't I? That I mean it's a big, it's a big thing. Thing for me is the whole thing about, 'cause I remember when you say, say that, so my brain really bounces between one thing and another. I think that's what really helps me to be able to do what I do. And with you saying about IFVP, I remember, there's not that much on YouTube, you have to really dig for it. But I found one of the recordings of one from about, I think about 2017 or something, and I think it was Kelvy Bird, was saying "No, we are artists. Stop saying you are an artists. " And I was trying to think about why is it that so many people, you know, sketch notes as well, who come across and say, oh, it's not you, we're not artists. You're, and, and I think you've got your little certificate, haven't you, saying it's okay to suck at art. MR: Yeah, I think it's great. AG: And I think one of the problems is that I mean, you might disagree, happy for that. The problem is that people look and say art is realism. So what they do is because they can't draw something realistically. They say, "I can't draw, so I'm rubbish and I'm not even gonna try it again." Whereas I'm trying to teach people and say, well, actually no, do you know when you do your letters in a particular way, that's as you are? If you haven't noticed, you can go and buy prints of letters and put it on a wall. So I'm coming from a very much an artist's point of view, and I'm saying, look what art does—I discovered this in the Tate Gallery. Do you know the Tate Gallery? You're familiar with that? So it's basically, it's all modern art and stuff and made-up stuff. I say, made up. Yes, it's true. And here was a huge canvas. I'm saying huge. I mean, we are talking feet upon, feet upon feet by feet upon feet upon feet upon feet of gray canvas in this white room. And he'd walk in, it was battleship gray. And it was like, what's the point of that? You know, why, why. So abstract art, always ask why, seeing what it does to you. So abstract art is about what's it do to you. Abstractionism is slightly different, but what's it do to you? And people are going, "No, that's a bit rubbish. That isn't it? How can that be in any gallery?" But if you went up and you read the little plaque, the little tiny plaque next to this huge canvas, it says, "This is not saying that this is art. It is saying what does art do to the room. What does art do to the room?" So in other words, the gray canvas, it says this gray canvas wasn't here, it just be a white room. Now the gray canvas is here. What's it do to the rest of the room? Ignore the canvas. And you had all sorts of things. You've got people having conversations, deciding what it was, and you start to realize that the aesthetic of art is that it makes people talk. It makes you think different. It has an impact. In fact, I'm always saying that art is not meant to be hidden away in a secret gallery. Art is meant to be responded to. When I do a piece of art, I say, "What do you think?" And that person says, "Well, I think this." And I go, "Oh, why do you think that?" Because it's the conversation it initiates, which is the important bit. And I think that that's the point that when we do our graphic recordings when we do our big physical thingies, you are creating conversation. You are not trying to just sort of like having—you're creating conversation. So whether that's just in letters or images, it doesn't matter. And then you get to the point of saying, well, actually, what is art? So art is a triangle, and you've got a symbol. You've got realistic, and you've got abstract. And art falls somewhere in that little triangle somewhere. So if you look at my style, which is like I said, New Yorker style, we're looking more about the symbol. Somewhere in the symbol artistic kind of element. And the more—sorry, symbol and realistic. And the more realistic you do something, the more people will notice problems with your picture. They'll notice it's all squiffy, whatever. But the more fun you make it, the more cartoony. I mean, I can draw one hand bigger than another to make a point. Make a point 'cause the hand's bigger. And that's great. 'cause People say, "Oh, it's just a style, isn't it?" And they won't try and say it's wrong. So what I'm trying to say here is that you can actually draw, but just have fun with it. Don't try and worrying that away. I haven't drawn a car that looks quite like a car. Instead you you can draw a car and say, well, if it's got these elements on it, people recognize it as a car. It's a bit like a symbolic emoji of a smiley face. It's really just a circle, two dots and a curve, and that's it. But you arrange them and compose them into the right way., it's now a smiley face. And I think that so many people in the graphic recording and sketchnoting and visual thinking world have got it into their heads that they can't draw. And so put up these barriers saying, "I can't draw, therefore I don't do art." And not realize that actually what they need to do is say, "Actually, maybe I create art in a different way, and I could explore it." And if they explore it and say, well, I can do art, then it might open the floodgates for them to be able to explore new spaces to go into and relax a bit. So yeah, it's one of the things I do. I coach people and train people in art as well. So, if anybody wants to know, I'll help them. MR: That discussion came up in Laiden with my friend Ben Crothers, who's from Australia. And he was challenging, like, you know, 10 years ago when I wrote my book, my big mantra was Ideas, not art. It was positioned as so many people had baggage around art that would stop them from doing anything whatsoever. And the solution that I had at that time was, you know, let's focus on the ideas. Don't worry about the art. That was the message I was saying. Like, you can put a few elements together and you're producing communication. And then the problem is over time, if you hold onto that, you feel like, well then I'm not an artist. Exactly what you're talking about. So we discussed that maybe the phrase could change to something more like ideas than art. So in other words, you begin building the ideas and then eventually you realize you're kind of moving into an art space where it is art and we can learn from artists to improve and level up and keep growing. So that was something we discussed right on that same track. AG: Yeah. And it's about just practice, keep practicing and trying ideas out. And also, I mean, one of the things which I'm interested with sharing the work which I've been developing with other graphic recorders is they give you feedback and initially find that what they're feeding back is their perspective on what it should be. One of the things about training in theology and I've done for literally decades is reflection and understanding. Reflecting, refine, reflect, refine, reflect, refine. So I've developed now a filter process and reflection process so that I can look at a piece of work I've done and decide what needs to change. And then when you are working on something, don't try and change everything all at once and learn to do everything all at once, but instead, look and say, "Well, do you know what? I'm gonna learn to do this one bit better in my style. And then when I've learned to do that bit, I'm gonna learn to change this bit and do that over and over in the next thing." So you're doing iteration and you iterate fast, but you just do lots of them, but then you are changing. If you want to draw cartoon characters, you know, learn to draw eyes, learn to draw ahead, what's your style of drawing head learn to draw the three-quarter view. You know, really most of the time you're only face on side on and three quarter. That's all you need to do. Then you can do this like the clever tilting of the head and everything else. But just do those three, first of all, learn how to do it. Draw a ball, learn to draw a ball, and then do the half circley things on them. You know, it's not rocket science. It's kind of fairly simple, really. MR: Take it a bit at a time. It seems like it is a good way to approach it and not leaving it to be overwhelmed pretty easily with the totality of what you could do. So focusing on small bits and keep on working. And then eventually it will all come together as a unit. AR: Well, if people see my work, they get gobsmacked. They go, "Oh, you are so fast and you are so good. I can't draw anything." It's like, Yeah, that's 'cause I've developed slowly and because I'm an illustrator as well. One of the things that if you look at an athlete and they do drills, they slow it down and they go through the process. So if you watch an athlete practicing their hard link, they kinda like do this weird goose step kind of thing as they're just programming their muscles to do it. And I think that actually if anybody wants to learn to draw really fast, go really slow and learn what it looks like really slow. Go slow, learn to construct, and then do some little sprint exercises of how quickly can you do it, and then go back and do it again. Go slow and then sprint. MR: It's kind of a slow building process. That's really good advice. AR: Yeah. MR: We're almost stepping into tips, but we want to talk about tools before we get to the tips. AR: Okay. I go all over the place. MR: You mentioned Neuland, you mentioned the graphic wall. AR: Yeah. MR: Do you wanna get into like that kind of stuff? And do you do personal small scale stuff and sketchbooks with pens? Are there any tools that you, especially like? AR: Well, I mean I will grab any bit of ground as they're called, any bit of paper or whatever. Some days I'll use pencils. Some days I'll use a ballpoint pen. It just depends what mood I'm in, you know. I like a good bit of color. I mean, you find a lot of graphic recorders they will use one, maybe two shade colors 'cause they can't flick fast. But as I've done my work and my family have looked and said, "No, we like full color best," So I have to draw full color. And I thought how I'm gonna draw quick enough. And then last week when I was working with a neuroscientist and he was linking together the ideas I was saying to be able to feed back to the group as we were working with these 200 people. He said, "I wonder what to do while you are drawing." I said, "I know you can be my colorist". MR: There you go. AR: So I drew, and then he would color for me. So, this I'm gonna have going forward. I'm gonna have somebody coloring for me 'cause it's a heck a lot easier. And I'll just put a little bit in and say, "What color do you want?" "I want that in pink". "Really? Yeah. Let's go pink." So I kinda like put really bright colors in. So I try to reflect the brand, but then I'll throw in other colors at the same time. So I work in that color spectrum 'cause I'm an artist and I love color. MR: So, well, if you look at comics, I mean, you have the inker, you have the penciler, the inker, and the colorist. They are separate in that sense. AR: That's where I'm coming from. We were doing tools, weren't we? Ignore the digital, I hate digital apart from when I'm doing the book. So we won't even talk about them. Procreate, you all right. You know. Oh, have you seen Procreate Dreams? That's exciting. MR: Yeah. That's the newest one, yeah. AR: Yeah. But no, I work in pure paper, but there's other tools as well, which I've just got. So those people who end up breaking their backs, carrying those big boards and the stands and two rolls of paper in your ski boot or your document tube or whatever. It must weigh about 10 kilos. I've just bought myself a camera bag a big 100 quid for all my marker pens. All right. So there's a top tip. You save money on big boxes and things. A camera bag is brilliant for all those marker pens and all the s spare inks and everything else. But put all those is I've just bought for myself something called a Rock N Roller, which I think have built for gigging musicians. You get all types of them, but basically this thing drops down to about a half meter, but it'll stretch up to about a meter and a half. It's got stands on it and you can put a bag on it, a big bag with ends on it. It's like this giant Ikea trolley thing and it'll take up to 500 pounds of weight. MR: Wow. AG: So I can put all this in my car, I can put the little Stanley my car and put everything else into it and then wheel it all in in one go. Genius. I'm a bit proud of that. So tools, get yourself a trolley and stop wrecking your back in 'cause five boards is about 30 kilo. It hurts. MR: Yeah. And you're gonna need your back to be performing. AR: Oh yeah. You wreck your shoulder. So camera back and a Rock N Roller trolley to push everything in. MR: And Neuland markers. It sounds like you're doing more with that. Yeah, the best. AG: Yeah. Neuland markers and the biggest paper you can find and the graphic wall and all the rest of it. MR: Cool. Well, let's shift then to tips. I think we've already got one, don't wreck your back is probably tip number zero. AG: Yeah, I would. Very important. MR: So I request three tips from people. And I frame it as someone's listening who maybe they're in a rut, maybe they just need a little encouragement. What would be three things you would tell that person to help them move forward? AG: Okay, three. Right. MR: It's not limited to three. I mean, you can go beyond three. AG: Oh, might be going a few hundred, actually. I've go to a thousand sets. Gain contact with me, I've got some training. I hardly can't charge anything at all. Actually, I mean, at some point I was trying to come up with it with it already, but I've not managed to get round to it, but I'm gonna be putting a course together next year. It's gonna be subscription-based 'cause the cost of entry into this world of graphic recording is huge. It's really expensive. And so, I wanted people to have a start of a 10, if they liked it, and then they can go and buy a bigger course or whatever. So that's the intro to the tips. But I would say practice, the biggest thing of all is practice. So practice going slow, practice going fast. But one of the best things you could do, I think is find the long-form videos on YouTube. There's plenty of them. I would hate to say this, but dump Ted Talks, they're great, but they're so fast. You just feel depressed because you can't keep up with them. MR: Can keep up, not when you're starting. AG: Yeah, I've tried and it's like you know and some of them aren't all that good. So instead, what I suggest is go and find the long-form videos especially those based around business because then you are learning at the same time. Okay, so that's the first thing. Graphic record, the business ones. Okay. Second tip, and I dunno if this works in Android, but it certainly works on iPhone. When you've done your practice of your business tip, right. Take a photograph of it. I mean we always just take photographs of all the work because iPhone, if you then type into search, it will search for the words that are actually on your graphic recording. Did you know that? Do you use that or not? MR: No, I haven't used that. AG: Which is brilliant because then it means, especially if you remember to write on the YouTube name of where you found it when you want to reference back to find the information—there are loads of things on there as well like book summaries and things. When you want to reference it, you can say, oh, I remembered that it was the name of this guy who did it. So you type it into your iPhone and then it'll bring up the graphic recording. MR: That's pretty cool. AG: What's more, if you say you want, if you wanted a subject on sort of like abilities. So you wanted to find out, well what is it about—lots of people I've heard recently have talked about the word ability and I've now written it a few times, right? So you type the word ability in and it brings up all the graphic recordings you've done on ability and now you can link the ideas together. So that's really useful. And related to that is if you're gonna become a professional graphic recorder, it's stuck with me the other day. So this is new thinking. I like to give people new thinking. We are the best networkers in the world. And there's massive value in putting people who can network. But because we are going in to deal with different companies and people, we can network people together. So that's another tip. And the final one I think we would say, which is which is very useful it's a technique which is called something about, and I got this from the coaching when we were being coached. So the way that it went was that is that you were put into partnership with somebody and you talked to them and you were told, right, "Tell them everything about what recently happened." So you tell 'em the story. And then the other person has to tell you back everything they can remember from what you said. And you go, "No, you didn't remember everything. There's bits you missed." They said, well do it again, another story, but this time the other person's gonna summarize it into two or three sentences. And so, this time you go, oh actually you got it quite right there, but you missed this bit of this bit. I said, right, you're gonna do it one more time with another partner. And this time you're gonna go say something about and give them one word. Okay? So you do that so you're listening and you finally realize you can't remember everything. So all that stress I try to remember you can't do. And so you just relax and let the whole ideas just merge. And then you get the kinda like this one idea that seems to almost evolve in your head. And then you go, "Is this something about this?" And you say one word and the other person goes, "Yes, that's exactly it." And it's the weirdest feeling. When you experience this, you go, "I just felt heard." Now if you take that and apply that to graphic recording and visual note taking and sketch noting, you suddenly realize that you can use so few words, and the fewer words you use the better, which is brilliant. What I tend to do in my process is—I've seen people write on post-it notes and stick them up and stuff, and I couldn't do that. If you get a 2B pencil, so this is the people working on graphic recording on big walls, so I have a top tip for them here. You can actually write on the wall with a pencil and from a distance of about five, six foot away, no one can see the writing, they can't see it. You write quite big, no one can see it. So you don't even need to rub it off at the end. So you write it in pencil as you're going along. So when people start, they're often, like I'm doing today, waffle mode. They're telling stories, this is my history, it's got nothing to do with the thing they're gonna talk about. And you don't wanna capture that so you just start write it and just write out what they're saying long form if you want, just so you can remember the bits they've said. 'cause something might be relevant in the future. And then suddenly they'll say something and they'll say it slightly slower and slightly louder and you'll go, "Ah, that's important." And then you look back at the notes and now you can take everything they've said and turn it into an image and then you're off 'cause now you're drawing at the same time as listening. So you can do that and bring all those things together. I think creates a rather exciting space. MR: Well that's a great tip. AG: I do apologize. That was rather a lot. MR: I think you ended up with like five or six, which is great. AG: Yeah, I know. We didn't limit it, so. MR: I told you, you could go beyond three. So you know, you went however that you want. AG: Oh, I could waffle forever, I'm afraid. MR: Well Andy, that's been so good to have you. How would we find you? What's the best place to find you? Do you have a website? Are you on certain social media, LinkedIn? AG: Yeah, you can find me on virtually everywhere. Well, I'll say everywhere. You can find me on Instagram, you can find me on LinkedIn, and even my website and it's onegraydot. So spell the American way. So I'm gonna spell it out for you 'cause nobody gets this right for some reason I came up with it years ago. So it's O-N-E-G-R-A-Y-D-O-T, all one word, not separated. And it's all onegraydot.com, LinkedIn onegraydot, and so it goes on. And it's gray. So what I do is I start off with a big blank wall and I put one gray.in the center of it and I say it's no longer blank, so you can't spoil it, now it's got one gray.in it. And I say, what do we do? We connect the gray dots, just one gray dot at a time. So all links in into salesmanship. MR: Yeah. That's pretty cool. And you know, while you were talking, I just for fun, I did a little search and brought up your Facebook page and at the top you've got an image up there. And what it reminds me of, like you said, New Yorker, for me, it reminds me of Red Bull. You know, the Red Bull gives you wings, cartoons. Have you seen these? It's exactly like that. AG: It's all editorial cartooning you say. MR: Yeah, exactly. AG: So it's all sort like of the same kind of thing really fast. So yeah, best place to find me for sort of like this kind of stuff is probably on LinkedIn and Instagram. MR: Okay. Well, of course, we always good show notes. AG: Facebook is Rev, Andy Gray, if you really wanna know. So Facebook's Rev, Andy Gray with an A. MR: Gotcha. And we'll of course put show notes, links to everything that can find and that we can bother Andy to send to us and put into the list. So if you're curious to see more, you can click there and check it out. Well, thank you, Andy. It's so good to have you on the show. Thanks for the influence you're having in the world and with people who maybe don't expect it and need it. Thank you so much for all that work you're doing. I really appreciate it. And thank you for being on the show and sharing your story. It's been great to have you. AG: Well, thank you. MR: And for everybody who's listening or watching, this is another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, until next time.

In this episode, Lena Pehrs shares how she explores and co-creates change management solutions with her clients with visuals. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Lena Origin Story Lena’s current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Lena Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Website LinkedIn Dario Paniagua Dave Gray Art Thinking by Amy Whitaker Mike Rohde's YouTube channel Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Neuland pens and paper Neuland fine tip markers Post-it notes Pilot fountain pen - fine tip Moleskine Notebook iPad Pro Apple Pencil Microsoft Surface Pro Sketchbook app Microsoft PowerPoint Adobe Fresco Procreate Tips Explore metaphors by taking creative or poetry classes. Get good structure in your drawing. Try and change format. Have some fun. Play with children. Draw with them. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike and I'm here with Lena Pehrs. Lena, great to have you on the show. Lena Pehrs: Thank you, Mike. Very excited to be here. MR: I'm excited to have you because I've been following and chatting with you on LinkedIn for, I don't know, about two years or something like that, a year and a half, something like that. LP: Yeah. MR: And we have been having a good discussion, and I just thought you're just a great person to have on the show. So here we are. LP: Thank you. MR: I'd love to hear more about what you do and how you think about visualization in your context and the people that you work with. So, let's begin first by you telling us who you are and what you do. LP: Well, I'm a management consultant. And I live in Stockholm, Sweden. Well, I do what normal management consultants do, but I do it with a lot of visual thinking and visualization. MR: Great. So is that your secret superpower for your clients, would you say? LP: Yeah, I think so. And I think that the analysis is really the image, so it works together that when you start thinking with visual thinking, you start to analyzing things in a different way. you start to see the world in a slightly different way. And I think it's really a means of getting better understanding and cooperation towards the goals you want to achieve. So it's really fundamental for change. Yeah, that is the secret sauce. MR: I assume that you probably work on some paper or whiteboards or something like that. Is that the typical tool that you use with your clients? Or are you using iPad? What is the tool that you would use to help them and guide them? LP: That would be a mix. I really prefer what happens in the room when you co-create together. And then I think that big white papers on the walls and pens, and like this tactile thing as well, really helps because for me it's important that the image, this visualization, it's not mine, it's the client's. So I really need their buy-in. It should be their pictures, their thoughts, their visual thinking really. So when you do it on paper, that really helps. I always know that when two clients are standing in front of the wall and discuss, "Okay, this is the problem and this is how we're going to solve it." I know that, you know, it's their picture, but of course during the pandemic this wasn't available. So working with digital tools are a good way to—it's very practical. You don't really get the same creative buy-in, I think. But of course, you need to combine these. So for all these Zoom meetings, digital tools are good and they do the job. But if I can choose, I go for pen. MR: Yeah. In person, maybe it adds a little something. I would think the other benefit, and correct me if I'm wrong, is by focusing on the paper and drawing your image, that the focus becomes on the paper, and maybe not even on yourself, you can become a little bit separated from the thing that you're doing. Rather than being about me, it's about the problem we're solving. And that changes the relationship, I think, to the problem solving with clients with you. Or it opens it up for you to speak into that when they now detach themselves from the problem. The problem is there and we together try to solve it. LP: Yeah. MR: Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. LP: And I think that in all these kind of discussions and workshops, it's always a challenge that ideas kind of fly up in the air. And when you manage to get them down on paper, then people can more build on each other's ideas. Which makes problem-solving so much better. So that is also like the process. MR: Interesting. So basically, if I were to encapsulate what you're doing, you're bringing clients in maybe one or multiple, and then you're basically facilitating and guiding them to the wall to visualize their problems and then guiding them towards potential solutions to their management issues, whatever it is. LP: Yeah. MR: I think you mentioned when we chatted that you're heavily into change management. Am I right about that? LP: Yeah. MR: Which is difficult at best, right? Moving through change is really hard. LP: Yes. MR: So that's really fascinating. Maybe we can get into that a little bit more when we talk about projects you're working on. So I'm really curious now, how did you come to the place where you are now? When you were a little girl, did you love drawing? Were you able to keep drawing through school where maybe others stopped drawing? Like what is your story, your origin story for that? LP: Yeah. I loved drawing when I grew up. So I would spend a lot of time drawing and painting and all kind of creative stuff. Just, you know, spending a lot of time in my teens just sitting at home and drawing, drawing, drawing. I really enjoyed it. And then I chose to go to university to have a master of science in industrial engineering. And even though I love that, I love maths, I actually love like solid mechanics and this kind of subjects. But it was a world with a lot of right and wrong and linear thinking. So after five years at university, I couldn't draw anymore. That had killed my creativity in drawing 'cause then I try to draw something that was perfect and correct, and that's not just possible. So I stopped drawing and I did other kind of creative things like photography or baking or gardening and all those kind of things. But I didn't draw for almost 20 years. MR: Wow. Wow. LP: Yeah. And then I had a colleague that said like, "Well, Lena, why don't you join me for this? There's something called graphic facilitation, and I think since you like to draw, maybe should join me." And that's like 2014, I think. And I went to that course and I was like, "Yeah, wow, this is something. This is interesting." But I thought I was a really a long—I didn't see how I would be able to incorporate that into what I was doing. How am I going to use this like in project management or change management. That was a big mental step for me. But I started drawing then and trying more and more. And then also outta LinkedIn, I kind of found Dario Paniagua— MR: Oh yeah. Of course. LP: —in Milan, and I was like, "Oh, someone doing this in Milan. I like Milan. I could go to Milan, we could have a chat." And then he was like, "Well, you know, Lena, I do these training courses." And I was like, "Okay, he might be skilled at this." So I was like, "Well, I'll give it a try. I can always learn something. "And then when I came to Dario and had like a two-days one-to-one training course, that was just amazing. MR: Oh, I bet. LP: Yeah. MR: I would take that. That would be fun. LP: Really a big eyeopener. Yeah. It was fun, and it was very challenging as well 'cause It's so much about—a lot of people talk about deschooling and, you know, change the way you think. And I think that is really the hard part of it. You need to start to think in a new way. And you don't do that from one day to another. It takes a lot of training and it takes a lot of quite a hard work. MR: So that really was the part that opened you up to doing this graphic facilitation. So at that point, after you took Dario's intensive class, so was part of that having Dario help you think about how you integrate this visual thinking into your already a normal practice? LP: Yes. So I've started—I see myself as really exploring the field and inventing it as I go and trying out different things. And sometimes, a lot of the times, the first years it was really the customers who invented the service 'cause They would come to me and say, "Oh, we have this problem and I know that you draw. Maybe could you help us facilitate this IT strategy?" I was like, "Yeah, we can give it a try." And then quite often it's amazing that it turns out really in a mix of creative and very efficient. You get like fast forward in some processes and you reach decisions really much more quickly. And in the same time, like with this IT strategy process, well, it was so fun and people didn't want to leave. And you know, the workshops normally you kind of lose energy during the day, but when we were drawing, this was so fun. It's like, okay. So, I don't always know beforehand what it will be like. And then sometimes it's turn out fantastic and sometimes it's turn out just like more normal. MR: Normal. LP: Yeah. MR: That has to be exciting. Like, I've spoken to people before when I do sketchnoting, when I do any kind of live thing or speaking, like for some people, the possibility that it could go wrong is really scary and it pushes them away from doing it. But I encourage them, like, that's the exciting part that, you know, you could fail and then you actually deliver makes it a lot more satisfying, right? Or it forces you, puts you in a corner to deliver, right? And then your training comes out— LP: Yeah. I think it's been very hard. I sometimes people tell you that, you know, speaking in front of people is one of the worst things, you know, people are having anxiety about. And I'm like, well, that's just because the option to draw in front of people aren't like on the list of things you can choose. Because for some reason that really scares us so much. MR: Yeah. LP: And it's silly. Why? 'Cause I mean, the purpose of it is for us to understand each other better. Actually a lot of the time, it's good if it's not perfect. Because if it's not perfect, people feel invited to be part of the creative process. They feel invited to contribute. And if it's too perfect, it looks like it's something finished. So I found like for change management, it's good if it's like a drawing by hand and by pen. It's not perfect. It's not polished. It's something manmade and it makes people want to communicate which is really the base. I mean, if you want to change, you need communication, and that's it. You need a goal and you need good communication. MR: I wonder sometimes if part of the fear of drawing in front of people is "They're gonna discover my real self." Like I'm revealing something that I can't—you know, like with words you can sort of hide a little bit, right? With drawing it's harder unless you practice— LP: Since our brains are really wired into understanding and thinking in pictures. I think it's something with the connection between how we think and what comes out. So we have this picture in our mind, and if the thing on the paper doesn't come out as the picture in our mind, it's easy to think that it's something wrong. MR: Yeah. LP: And we don't have that connection with words, so we don't expect it to be perfect. MR: That's true. LP: And also, I think images are such a powerful tool for communicating. And when it's powerful, it's also more difficult to manage because it can go what we feel is in the wrong direction. MR: Right. Right. That's a good point. So now what you're doing as your primary work is this kind of work where you bring clients into a room, ideally, with papers on the wall, hand them markers, and then you begin to draw the problem and then work through solutions with them. LP: Yeah. Basically. So it can look a bit different. Sometimes it's a long like change management kind of program with the management team and the organization. And sometimes it's more like with a team and, you know, a two-day planning session for the year to come or something like that. But the base of it is creating visuals together. MR: Where is a collaborative experience. LP: Yeah. MR: So one last question about this. Specifically, what happens to the drawings after you're done? Do you capture them in a document? Do you sit down and—or does everyone write down these solutions and then get out the calendar and plan when things will happen? I would think that you'd want to capture that moment and then immediately turn it into action, right? I would suspect that's really the end point is getting it into an action state of some kind. LP: A lot of the time we would have like a structure and an idea for the final image. So the end result of a two-day workshop will be like a roadmap for the year to come. And a lot of clients would put that up on the wall in the office. And then of course, also having it in a digital version that you can have in your PowerPoints or wherever. MR: Interesting. So then they would just always—like, if it's in the office where they are and they come in the morning with their coffee, they look on the wall and "There is the thing that we all worked on together." And you can see like your progress, right? That's pretty cool. LP: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can add some post-its when you have finished things off and you can, you know, change and work with it. MR: That's different than I think one of the challenges of graphic recording, you know, where you're capturing what someone's saying. A lot of times, like I've heard stories from people on the show where they found that all their work was like rolled up and in the trash, and they had to pull it on the trash, right. So, it's sort of like this thing, which was nice to have in the moment and, you know, it was just there as an entertainment or something. So really, I think for visual thinkers, the stress is on how do we move it from just being this nice to have experience in the moment to actually being a map that you can look at and drive the company from, right? And make sure you're on track. Sounds like that's what you really do. LP: Yeah. And I think it's important that it's something you need to solve an essential problem for the customer. That's when it gets to be something important and to make them part of it, the drawing so that they really feel that it's their drawing. And then I've had sometimes, like early like one of the first jobs I did when I started to use this method, I was just, you know, with the management team, we had interviewed them and I was just drawing the summary instead of writing it. And after this—and the drawing wasn't even, it wasn't good, to be honest. MR: Pretty rough. Yeah. LP: I don't think so. It wasn't just a rough drawing. And then we showed it to the management team, and some weeks later, the communication manager asked the team, "So what kind of material do you need now to go out to talk to all the staff? Do you now need brochures or do you need PowerPoints? What do you want us to provide you with?" And one of the managers who had like the biggest division, he was like, "I just need Lena's picture." "Okay, but what do you need? Like PowerPoints?" "No, no, no, no. Can I just have that picture? I can take that picture and start to talk about this." And then if I had known that they were going to use this rough drawing for two years, I would have put in a lot more effort. But it was really something—because it was theirs. It was theirs thoughts and expressions and metaphors so they just took it and used it. MR: That's interesting you've mentioned that. I've forgotten about this, but I had an experience like this many years ago where I sat and I sketchnoted someone talking about their vision. And I shared it with them, of course. This is when I was user experience designer, and they were talking about a vision for this medical product. So I sort of just listened and captured what I was hearing. And the guy came back, I don't know, a month later or something like that, and his book, he had photocopies that he had printed and he carried them around everywhere. And he was referring to it. Like, that was the map. This is what I talked about. It's all captured, it's all right here. And he was using it just like that, right. It was the thing could speak against and say, well, then we're gonna—like, everything was mapped the way he was thinking, I just happened to listen and capture what he said. So that was a really impactful for me. Like, wow. I just thought it was just, you know, throwaway. It was just me listening, right? But for him it's really meaningful, which is really cool. That's sort of woke me up a little bit in that moment. Like, okay, the things that I'm doing here are really powerful and useful. And I should remember that, you know even the most rough thing that I think could be pretty valuable for somebody else. Assuming again, that we're capturing their thinking and their ideas. LP: Exactly. MR: You're just being the scribe in that case. In that case it gets really, really super powerful. LP: Yeah. When you kind of manage to mirror their way of thinking, that's really a useful tool. It's very powerful. MR: And I do that for myself. So, as an example, I did a workshop last year, and in my bullet journal, I went to my favorite cafe. I got my favorite drink, and I sat down and I opened a blank spread and I just dumped everything I was thinking on that two pages and poured it all out. And that was basically the basis for the workshop. I basically laid that spread open, and did all my preparation and the other, like, I write a script and make a list of things and to-do lists, like everything was—but that was the basis, that two-page spread in my notebook, so I could see it and practice even in my own life too. So I can see how powerful it's for others as well. LP: Yeah. MR: That's a good reminder— LP: Yeah. And it's also what I think that I'm like, "Why didn't I know this when I went to school? If I had known, that would have made life so much easier." MR: Yeah. Yeah, I think so too. And that's a lot of the reason why I am so involved in educational spaces. Teaching this to teachers, integrating it into curriculum because kids naturally kind of do this, this is the way they express. So really, it's less about teaching the kids how to draw. I mean, that's one part of it, but a lot of it is protecting them to keep drawing. So they make it as a tool, right? And then if they can hold onto that through university into work, that's really powerful. Something we didn't have, but we can then give that as a gift to the next generations behind us, so. LP: Yeah. And it's also quite common that I have customers that are like, "Well, we have this strategy document and it's like 35 PowerPoint slides. We think we would need it as one picture. Can you do that?" And I was like, "Yeah. It can be done." MR: That's what I do. Yeah. So on that point, I would love to hear just something in the moment, what's something you're really excited about working on now? You don't of course have to say the company name or any of that, but more like, what's the project that you're working on that you're excited about? Maybe it's this 35-page PowerPoint that you're converting into a single image or something. What would be something that's happening right now for you? LP: Well, currently I'm working on writing and drawing a book about change management, and really trying to make the pictures, holding a lot of the message to really, I think—I'm very inspired by a book I read some years ago, "Art Thinking" by Amy Whitaker. MR: Yes. I have that one. Yep. LP: Yeah. And I think like it's time for art thinking in leadership, and that's somewhere I want to like, explore more, how can we really—I think there's a huge—we have so much change that we need to do in this world now so change management, we really need to get so good at this. And I think also that we need a lot of clarity of mind and we need a lot of cooperation. And I think visual thinking is really a very powerful tool in this area. So that is what I'm trying to get together in a book about how to manage change and how to do it with a lot of visuals. MR: I would love to read that book. LP: I will send you a copy. MR: Yeah, we'll definitely we'll have to mention it to all the sketchnote people on the site and in the slack as well, so people can go check it out. That's great. LP: Mm-hmm. MR: Well, I wish you well with that. I know how difficult it is to write a book, how much work it is. It's a lot of work. LP: Yeah. MR: And then when you're done with the book, you're only halfway done because now you have to convince people to buy the book which is its own challenge, but I think you're up for the task. So I'm excited about that. Great. Well, I think what I would love to do now is switch into what are the tools that you like to use? We'll start first with analog tools. And maybe this can probably pretty focus on your client work, I suppose, although personally I'm sure you use some things. And then we'll switch into digital tools that you like after that. LP: For workshops, I'm a big fan of Neuland. So I use a lot of their pens and paper. And that's basically it. Well, post-its and stuff as well, but a lot of Neuland markers. And the refillables, it's really good. For personal, I'm a big fan of pens and books. I buy loads. At the moment I'm really enjoying drawing with a fountain pen, an ink, and combining that with watercolors. And since I read your book again this spring, I started to buy these Moleskine books and started sketchnoting again with Neuland pens. And then I swapped over to more the fountain pen, and I use basically whatever. I think that is a good way to get new energy to buy a new pen. MR: Yeah. That's a good point. "I must use this pen." So you'll find a reason to use it, right? LP: Yeah. MR: In a lot of ways. With your fountain pen, I'm assuming you must be using some waterproof ink if you're doing watercolor with it. I suppose, right? LP: Yeah. Yeah. MR: Is there a specific ink that you like better than others for that? LP: No, I just bought some. I don't remember the brand actually, but I checked so that it would be waterproof. MR: Okay. Yeah. I think one that I've heard of and I've not tried yet is Noodlers Ink. Which I guess has a variety of colors, but is waterproof? So that's one that I, I'm pretty aware of. What about which fountain pen have you settled on? Or are you still using a variety of them? LP: I have just started this—so I bought a Pilot fountain pen, and I love it. So I'm thinking that I probably need several. This was— MR: Of course. LP: Yeah. I bought a fine tip, so it's really, really fine. And I'm like, I might need a medium one soon. MR: Yeah. Is that the— LP: But I love the— MR: —is that the vanishing point? The pilot vanishing point? I think that's the one where the tip is more covered by the barrel, if I remember right? LP: Mm-hmm. MR: But I'm sure they have more than that pen in their collection. LP: Yeah, I just bought it. I don't really know which one it was. MR: So Lena, when you find out which pens and inks you have, you can just email me and I'll put it in the show notes because others might be thinking, "Oh, now I need a Pilot fountain pen and Ink," so that then they can get the same one you have and then they could benefit from your learning. LP: I shall do that. MR: Great. It sounds like you do watercolor. Is there any markers that you use with your sketchnoting as well? Like, do you grab Neuland markers and use those for sketchnoting? Or do you have some other tools when you're working in the Moleskine book? LP: Yeah. No, that would be mostly Neuland. MR: Okay. Those are raw. LP: And then for my book—yeah. The fine ones at the moment. MR: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. LP:: Yeah. But also working with my book, I bought like this markers on the gray scale, so I have 10 different versions of gray to work in black and white. MR: That's great. Now what about digital? I assume that you must be doing some kind of digital work, but I don't know what all you might be doing. Are you using an iPad or some other tool? LP: Yeah. I have an iPad Pro that I've had for six years. So I would draw some on that one, either with a pen or inspired by Dario, where I would like draw with my finger. But I also have a Microsoft Surface Pro that I draw with. I actually prefer the Microsoft Pen 'cause the nib is like slightly with a feather, so it's more— MR: It's got a spring on it, I think. Right? LP: Yeah. Yeah. MR: Spring loaded. LP: Yeah. So I work with that with like a sketchbook app. MR: Yeah. That's a really common one. Been around for a long time. LP: Yeah. Yeah. MR: That's great. I played around with Microsoft Surface in the past and I kind of liked it. It was a nice environment, I think at the time because it was early in its life. There weren't really many tools available. I don't even know if, I guess Sketchbook probably was available for that, and that was probably what I used. But I felt like there was a limited choice of tools on that platform, which I'm sure is not the case anymore. I'm sure there are many other drawing tools for that. I know Concepts I think works on the surface as well, which is a vector-based drawing tool, but does offer lots of control. LP: But to be honest, I kind of, sometimes I work just with PowerPoint. I find PowerPoint a really useful tool. So if I'm just doing something, you know, for a presentation or something as simple drawing, I would do it right directly in PowerPoint. Yeah. MR: Yeah. I would think that the built-in tools on the surface are also probably improved a lot too, so that you can write in the Office stuff, right. PowerPoint and whatever. LP: Yeah. MR: That's really— LP: But if I want to make a drawing that it's more complex, I would actually do it on paper and then use my scanner. MR: I see. LP: And then maybe add something in the sketchbook. But otherwise I think pen and paper is really easier for me, quicker. MR: So now is there a tool on on the iPad that you prefer when you do use the iPad? LP: I think I've been using like Procreate and also Adobe Draw. MR: Okay. LP: Or Fresco is the new name for it, isn't? MR: Fresco, yeah. I think so. Yeah. LP: Because sometimes then I think it's a bit of a problem for me that I change what app I use and I forget how to do it. And then it's like, "Okay, you need to do this because we need it vector based." And then I use another app, so I'm all over the place there. MR: So almost need to like pick one and stick with it and know it really well, I suppose. LP: Yeah. Yeah. MR: Interesting. So now that we've done tools and it sounds like you've got quite a variety, let's talk a little bit about tips for listeners. Usually, the way I frame it is, imagine someone's listening, they're a visual thinker of some kind, maybe they're in a place where they just need a little encouragement. What would be three things you would encourage them with in their visual thinking work? LP: Yeah, I think, and of course it depends on who it is and where they are in this journey to really work with visuals. But I think for me, one really important key is metaphors. It's really the way we understand the world and it affects so much on how we're thinking. So if you want to explain abstract concepts and different like specialties, metaphors, or really where you need to work and if you want to—'cause I think this is a part that has been really hard for me, I've had to put a lot of energy into really start to think in metaphors. And I think if you want to improve that and want some new energy in that like you can take a creative writing class 'cause they use this a lot. Or you can actually like start to read poetry. And of course, you can also, like Dario has this excellent online content with ideas and methods on how to develop metaphors. So that I think is really key to make your visuals explain things and to tell a story. And I think also really, a key thing in change management is to tell a story. So explore metaphors. And then I think this spring, I've spent a lot of time online where I think there are such a lot of great thinkers that share a lot of good material. And I think another key is to get good structure in your drawings and in your discussions. And I think that like Dave Gray, with his visual framework. I think that is just amazing and so useful. So if you want to get inspiration on how to structure a problem and then structure a drawing, then definitely check that out. And also if you're stuck, and I must say, because this was so fun when I started to look at your YouTube videos and workshops ,I think to change the format. 'Cause I also think that the format is really a base for how we think. This format you choose supports your thinking. So swapping format can be really energy boosting. So when I went from large papers on the wall and I started like, okay, I'll buy a Moleskine and do the sketchnoting kind of approach, I was amazed that something happened with my brain. I was like, "Wow, this is so fun and this is so—and I can do this and that." So to try and change formats actually, I think can do wonders. MR: So of remap yourself to a new format. It's a new challenge too, right? Because you have to take the things, you know, and the other thing. Like, for me, it would be the other direction, right? So, whenever I have to do large format, which I did last spring, it was a real—it was a fun challenge. Like I was excited, like how will I solve this, right? I'm a problem solver. So when I go into this, like I've got this big board, like I have to rethink all my orientation and my proportions, everything, which marker I'm using, how many times do I need to draw to get the stroke as wide as I want, right? Those are new problems, but it's fun to see it. You know, we have this immediacy in the work we do that you can immediately see whether it's working or not, and then tear off the page and then start again and learn from it, right? So same thing in the other direction, right? You probably had to take all these large format ways of working and then you press them onto the page, which is probably fun in a different way. PL: Yeah. Yeah. And liberating in some way to take away some pressure, I think there. MR: Yeah. Have some fun. PL: Yeah. That is also always essential and really a key to be able to be creative, have some fun, but sometimes when you're standing there and you're at the client's site, it's not easy, but absolutely. MR: That could be your fourth tip, have some fun. PL: Yeah. Yeah. That always. And also I think another good tip there is go play with children. I think that is a great way to have some fun and boost your creativity. Draw with them. They're fun. MR: Yeah. It's fun to draw with kids. I draw with my kids. Probably not as much as I should, but I always enjoy drawing with my son especially, we make comic books together, so it's really fun. He'll do part and I'll do part and we need to do that again in summer, so. PL: It's great. Mm-hmm. MR: Well, Lena, it's been so good to have you on the show. Already we've gone through the show and here we are at the end. I can't believe that the time has gone so fast. But thank you so much for the work you're doing and how you're impacting the people who are around you. We so need you in the world to do that. Thank you for your work and for your sharing here, so others can be inspired and maybe get some ideas for ways they can change or improve the way they work. PL: Well, thank you, Mike. It's been really a pleasure, and I'm really a huge fan. MR: Well, thank you so much. Thank you. And next time I'm in Sweden, I will certainly reach out and we'll have a coffee at least. Maybe do some drawing together. That would be fun. PL: That would be amazing. MR: Yeah. Well, for everyone who's listening or watching, this is another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Till the next episode, talk to you soon.

In this episode, we dive into Luke Kelvington’s fascinating world as the commander of a submarine. Luke takes leadership to a whole new level by mixing in visual thinking and sketchnotes to shape how he and his crew make better decisions. If you're curious about how creativity plays a role in leadership, especially on a submarine, this podcast is a fun journey into Luke's underwater world. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Luke Kelvington? Origin Story Luke’s current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Luke Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Luke on LinkedIn Proceedings of the United States Naval Institute Magazine Luke’s Bio - Submarine Pacific Fleet Website Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Notebook Sketchnote Idea book Neuland Bikablo Icons Neuland pens Ballpoint pens Tips Practice and take courses. Use tools to perfect your work. Share your projects. It's okay to wait to be inspired. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production, and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike and I'm here with Luke Kelvington. Luke, it's so good to have you on the show. Thanks for coming. Luke Kelvington: Oh, thank you for the invite, Mike. Appreciate it. MR: So we got connected through the Cleveland Guardians. We both have a connection through that. And learned about your sketchnoting skills, and you sent me samples and I was like, "Oh, this is cool. We should have you on the show to talk a little bit about your experience and the way you look at it with the people who listen." So I'm just gonna jump right into, why don't you tell us who you are and what you do, and then go right into how did you end up in this place? Even go back to when you were a little kid, were you drawing for your whole life? You know, was it a late development? I'm really curious to hear how it all fit into what you're doing now. LK: Yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah. I'm from Akron, Ohio, son of a third-generation mechanic. I'm pretty sure had my name been Earl Risk Kelvington IV, that's what I'd probably be doing. But I got into the Naval Academy in '19 — or 2000 and joined in 2001. And I've been in the Navy ever since. So I'm a career naval officer, submariner. I'm on my fourth submarine. MR: Wow. LK: I'm the Captain of the USS Pennsylvania Gold, which is a ballistic missile submarine out here in Banger Washington MR: Hmm. LK: Yeah. So as far as, you know, as a kid, I always liked, you know, drawing fonts. I would decorate the upper right-hand corner of, you know, my math homework, and you know, just different designs. And so, I've always just enjoyed just doodling. You know, I was a rugby player, art was not always at the forefront of what I was doing. But I will say that I had a math teacher in 7th grade, and he would give us certificates if you get a hundred on a test, and he would write out your name in calligraphy. And in 7th grade, you know, I was like, "I'm gonna learn how to do this." So, you know, I learned calligraphy in middle school. And so, you know, that and fonts has always been just something I've really enjoyed doing. And I'll say that I've been challenged in the past by my mentors to make sure that I'm always doing something professionally with respect to journaling. And when you know, COVID happened, and I got into this space with the Cleveland Guardians, and then I watched your presentation, and I was like, "Wow, it's just something I didn't even know I needed." And the simplicity of you the messaging and how you were able to show, "Hey, as long as you can do these shapes, you know, the idea's not art mantra. As long as you can do these simple shapes, you could really convey a message. And even if it's just with yourself and your own journal, trying to figure out how to better yourself or your people," I found that, you know, I got really excited about it and started doing it. And what I found was, I was listening to my leaders speak. So I was on an admiral staff, and so, I started Sketchnoting when he was giving his speeches. What I found was by sharing that with him after the fact, and proving to him that his message was simple enough to be able to capture an imagery and not really, you know, hard things to convey, that he was being very effective in his communication style. So my job as a leader on a submarine is to design people's decision space. And if I can clearly communicate that in different manners, and one of which is through art. So for instance, last week I have these giant post-it notes, and I have my — we'll talk about nuance of pens later. But I have my Neuland pens, and I'll draw quotes and just simple designs. This week was, the strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack. I found on the noun project this, you know, this very simple drawing of a wolf. And it's just the imagery as they come in. It's not just words on a page. It's got a little bit more to it and a little bit of depth. You know, just a little bit of shading makes it look and makes it pop and makes it something that I think really resonates. That Cleveland Guardian series, you know, we've been exposed to a lot of amazing leaders. You know, Dan Coyle, James Kerr, you know, Jay Hennessy's just done a fantastic job of bringing these people together. And James Kerr, in his book "Legacy," you know, he says, "Shrewd leaders invent a unique vocabulary of shorthand for communicating new cultural norms and standards using specific words, phrases, mottos, and mantras." And I would argue art is part of that. Then using metaphor, the leader brings the story to visceral life across as many channels as possible. And in that way, the language becomes the oxygen that sustains belief. And in this way, leaders rewrite the future. You know, so using that metaphor and using the imagery, I think is a way to be very effective as a leader. With my crew, my message is very, I think, simple. It's to build trust, and then, you know, I break it into character and competency, there's something that can resonate with them. Choose growth, and then to use your best punch. And I've used that, "use your best punch" in this boxing analogy now and using some of the imagery from that to I think — you know, I've only been in command for about three months, but I think starting to build a culture where that can that resonate. And then you can use other things, like, you know, "what does it mean to be in someone's corner?" As a coach, as a mentor, as someone that you know, is able to throw in the towel for you, when you see that they're struggling and they don't even know that they need the help. So, you know, being able to just effectively use imagery in order to either help you figure out how you wanna convey it. So like, I don't share all of my notes, you know, with my guys and girls, but you know, making sure that it's a way for me to help frame again, how do I give them the left and right boundaries and then create that imagery to make sure that we're heading in the right direction. MR: That's really cool. I'm really curious. You made a statement earlier, you said something about decision space. I would really like you to expand a little on what is a decision space, and then secondarily, how are you — it sounds like you're using this imagery as a way to frame or put boundaries on that decision space. LK: Yeah. So decision space, I talk about the fact that, life is a choose your own adventure. And so as I get you know, 18 to 20-somethings trying to make sure that we teach them what right looks like. So some of that is in either words or pictures. Other instances is actually showing them on the job training of what that really looks like. So the idea is, as they're more junior, the constraining space is the left and right boundaries. MR: Smaller. LK: Yeah, are smaller. So again, if you can either use imagery or figure out how you are gonna frame your discussion with them and you can work that out, you know, what are the left and right boundaries that I want to convey so that you can then, and after the fact, "Hey, did I clearly communicate that?" Because honestly, when someone messes up -- I'm a huge proponent of human error. I think that, we are going to make mistakes. And it happens all the time. You know, I give 'em the example. I say, "Hey, on your phone, how often do you hit the wrong button and you have to back or auto correct." And that stuff happens in real life. And just your normal day-to-day processes. So, if we can accept that human error — 'cause I think, again, our tendency is to run, hide, cover, and blame. That's kind of where we go. But how do we change that so that they feel safe enough to come in, tell you that they messed up? And then making sure that there's enough of environment that's safe where they can go ahead and admit those mistakes. So that's kind of what I'm talking about there with the decision space. And again, sometimes it's with words, sometimes, again, in your journal, it's a way to, how do I best convey this message to my people? MR: It almost seems like what you're trying to do, the way I read it is, they can't see inside your mind and what you're thinking, but you can use words and images and things to basically help each one of those individuals build that decision space in their mind to know where the edges are. And know, like, okay, I'm at the edge of, "I need to talk to somebody before I proceed with this." Or, "This doesn't feel right. I need to talk to someone and make sure something feels hinky about this, I better check." Like, I'm imagining you're helping them to build it for themselves so they can — 'cause then that makes themselves sufficient. And then I guess the second thing is by making that safe environment where they can say, "Hey, captain, I screwed up. I did this." They're more likely to learn from it, right? If they feel like they're gonna get beat up over it, then that encourages people not to tell you. And then you can ask something that can be a runaway problem that could build into some huge problem, right? You wanna catch it early before it becomes out of control, I would think. LK: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I think being able to look at yourself first, "Hey, did I give you the time, the tools, the training to do it right." And when they see you with the humility to say, "Hey, I'm going to look at myself first before I go and try to put any kind of blame on you." I think that that helps us build that psychologically safe space to make sure that they do come forward. 'Cause In my world, troubleshooting a human error and a very technical problem is, you know, if you put the wrong number in, we need to know that, so. MR: Yeah. That's pretty cool. That's really interesting the way you're using it in that. Now you mentioned too that you do journaling. Can you tell a little bit of detail about how you've integrated, I guess, visualization of some kind? Maybe it's rises to the level of sketchnoting in your own journaling practice, and how has that helped you? LK: Yeah, so I will, a lot of times when maybe in, even in social media, I'll see something like, Adam Grant puts out a quote, you know, so I'll snap that, and then later on I'll take that quote, and then go into my notes and try to make it something that sticks, right? I mean, you wanna make it so that it's something that's sticky. And then, you know, once you kind of have that confidence, sharing that with others. I'm a SEC football fan, and I was watching SEC Media Day a couple weeks ago, and Kirby Smart was talking and then Nick Saban, and I was like, "Holy smokes, this is a leadership 101. I need to capture some of this stuff." So, you know, capturing it quickly. You know, we can go into some of the advice stuff later, but make sure that you're able to make some shorthand notes off to the side, and then you can figure out how do I want to present this, you know, in a clear manner that I want to capture and then share in the future. So, you know, I've got my journals, they're chronological, but, you know, I'll put in the front of those journals like a page number with something I wanna make sure I go back to. Yeah, and it's something that now it's sticky, it's there, it's an image. I can tell you, I do not have a photographic memory, but I can see, you know, an image on a page, and then I can go back to it and say, "Okay, this is —" It's gonna be something I can go back and say, "Hey, this is gonna be something I wanna apply to this situation. Because, you know, as Mark Twain says, right, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes." And so being able to go back to those and say, "Hey, this is an effective message that I now can then share with my people." So, you know, I've been collecting quotes and reading books and putting those things together for really the last 18 years of my career. And for this moment to be able to pour the stuff out on my people. MR: That's cool. So it does seem like — the things I take away from that are knowledge and insight can come from any place, right? You're watching SEC Media Day, you're getting stuff from, you know, head coaches to these football teams who are leaders, right? They have to deal with leadership. So even like kids and other people can bring you that. So being aware that knowledge can come from any place and to be ready. So that was one message. And then the second message was, is when you place it in your journals that you have created in an index, so you can find it again quickly because you have a feeling like, you know, "This might be valuable for my team in the future, I need to be able to quick reference that thing and pull it back." And then the third thing was interesting too, is you said you can see it in your mind. Like that's the way — the challenge for me is I could see it in my mind, and I know I did that thing and then, you know, I probably need to work on my organization of my books so that I can find stuff more easily. Maybe they need to be digitized, I don't know. But I can definitely like, "0h yeah, I can close my eyes and imagine that sketchnote that I did." And a lot of times the where and when and details all around it. Now finding it in the book is the challenge. So that's my thing that I gotta deal with, but. LK: Right. Yeah. MR: Interesting. LK: And you know, when we talk about tools, because of the nature of my job, I typically don't have my a cell phone, I don't have much when it comes to digital, so a lot of what I have to do is just on pen and paper. You know, so I have not gotten into — I recently did buy the surface pen to try to try the stuff out the digital world, but a lot of times it's just not something that I can take with me. MR: Yeah, exactly. I think that feels like a real natural place to shift into the tools you do use. Are there specific pens that you like when you do journaling, are there certain books that you like? You talked about big sketch or big sticky notes and Neuland markers. So talk a little bit about kind of the tools you use and why you like 'em. LK: Yeah. For the most part the journaling, I'll just use the normal, just regular you know, notebook. I do have your the Sketchnote Ideabook as well. MR: Oh, cool. Nice. LK: So, you know, I have one that I'm usually in a chronological order going through. And then I have a couple others that where I'm practicing. So, you know, I got the Bikablo Icons from Neuland, so you can kind of go through and practice the different emotions. I even have a little book that was by — it's my daughter's book. It's how to draw, you know, and it's just simple little things. So, you know, working on that inventory of icons is really, I think one of the things that's helpful to have kind of a separate journal that I build that inventory and that muscle memory of what those — just like you say those simple shapes, but then you just add a little bit of depth and it just really it pops. I don't know how to better describe it. But yeah, I love the Neuland pens. And I like the fact that I can reload 'em and and the fact they don't bleed through the paper, I think that's the other piece's of it. MR: Yeah. That's the best. LK: On a day-to-day, I just have like a ballpoint tool as one of my go-tos, you know, in my uniform. 'cause the Neuland’s don't have an easy way to, you know, kind of stuff it in my uniform there. MR: Yeah. LK: Like I said when it comes to — I do it for sermons too, so every Sunday I've got a little sketch note of whatever that sermon was, but off to the side as, you know, saying his outline, I'm putting that on a separate piece of paper just to kind of sketch out, "Okay, this is what it was." And then, you know, I've done a couple of your workshops, talking about different layouts, like what's gonna fit best for this particular sermon and making sure that I — and you're gonna make mistakes especially if you're just using pen and paper, but figuring out inventive ways to hide those mistakes is always a fun challenge as well. And then a lot of times, I'll snap a picture of it and share it with my mom or you know, just — again, just being willing to share that stuff and get some feedback, and it seems to resonate pretty well with others. Yeah, when it comes to simple icons the Noun Project is definitely an easy one. MR: Great resource. Yeah. LK: And honestly, I'm also not shy about tracing an outline of it, you know? I'll put the phone behind it and trace the outline, and — MR: That's a good idea. LK: — you know, as I'm working on trying to, you know, build the repertoire of icons, but you know, sometimes I just can't get the proportions right so I'll just draw it behind there and trace it through, and it still looks pretty good. And then when I was in my job, in my previous job on that Admiral staff, I just had 5 by 8 note cards, and that would be my method of capturing those things, especially if I wanted to share 'em with them. MR: Yeah. It's interesting, like 5 by 8 note cards, I've got a big stack of them. Well, I got smaller ones right here. I took to a conference years ago. Basically, we said, "Well, here's what we need." And I wanted 5 by 8 card stock, so they got eight and a half by 11, cut it in half, and handed it out to all the students in that workshop. In person, I was in Philly, and they had all these leftover cards. So I took them and I was like, I really like these are really nice. You know, it's kind of a nice, you know, you don't feel too precious about it. If you screw it up, you just recycle it, start with another one, you know, it's independent so you can kind of move it around. And so that's kind of cool that you use that. So when you're on the boat, are you able to take — it sounds like you don't take technology, so you take paper and pen or something, or do you take anything when you go on the boat, or is it pretty much get left behind? LK: I'll take my pen and paper, you know. MR: Oh, nice. LK: And my journal. Yeah. So, again, I use it as a leadership journal, you know, capture things you know, obviously nothing classified, but — MR: Sure. Yeah. LK: But yeah, just building on those lessons and making sure that again, as I'm trying to visualize how I want to present information, one of the easy ways to do that is if I can — I'm convinced that if I can make it a simple image, then if I can communicate that image with words, then I think I'm winning there to be able to build what that — bringing that story to visceral life like James Kerr says. MR: There's been a lot of talk about story too. Like we as people, if we see or hear story, if it's well done, it can be almost as though we experienced it personally. So that visceral life is actually like a real thing. Like, you can almost imagine, like in movies you've seen, if you really resonate with it, it could feel as though you experienced that yourself. And you can learn lessons from those experiences. Like, "Yeah, don't do that. Probably, this doesn't feel right. " You know, you're building knowledge from that. So when you take your journals on the boat, do your do your crew see that? What do they think? 'Cause I saw, you know, you put it up on the screen, it's got stickers all over it and, you know, looks kind of cool. They're like, "Oh man, he is carrying a notebook." Does that seem unusual to them? Do they say anything to you about it? Or how do they react to that, if at all? Maybe they don't. LK: I think that when I do show 'em the images, I think they do enjoy it, but it is pretty typical for, you know, senior officers to carry around at least some level of a notebook, but to me it's teaching them that, you know, that professional journal that you're learning and making sure you're capturing these lessons. 'Cause people learn lessons from good leaders, and they also learn them from poor leaders too. So making sure that even, you know, you capture both the good and the bad. 'Cause You can say, "Well, I really don't want to do it that way." You know, so when they get in charge, and making sure that they're taking things with them. The Navy is not something that is always a career for everyone, but making sure that those lessons that you learn and you've got something to be able to after the fact digest. My engineer tour was a very a challenging tour. It was, over three yearS, but the notes that I took during that tour, I was able to then really digest. I ended up writing an article and getting it published in the Naval Institute Proceedings. I would've not been able to really digest that tour and clean all those lessons if I hadn't captured those throughout the tour. Just those little nuggets things I wanted to do better, things I learned. Yeah. MR: It seems to me too, the other lesson I take away from what you're just talking about is, and this probably from the beginning too, is this idea of you can't just, you know, at the end of three years, like go back and reflect on everything and take every learning because you're gonna forget a lot of it. So it's really important that you are documenting this stuff as it's happening in little micro chunks and letting it build over time. So you're building this experience, and it's a way of capturing like your lessons, because you know, as much as you'd love to think, you can go back after three years and reflect, and you could do dress and meaning, but having that reference would be huge. So that would be an encouragement for those listening or watching to maybe start carrying a, carrying a book around that they document stuff in the way that you do as a valuable professional tool. LK: And sometimes it can just either be a small image or just a few words, and that'll trigger, you know, that event so that you can make sure, yeah, You can capture it and use it in the future. MR: So we've covered your life story. We've covered tools. We're at the point where I would love to hear your encouragement in tips. So the way I frame it is someone's listening, watching their visualization person of some kind, and maybe they feel like they're in a rut or they just need some encouragement. What would you tell that person In three tips? Or you can go beyond three if you want to. LK: Yeah, I think the first is you know, the practice, you know, building those icons so that later when you're stuck you can open up that other journal and take a look at those items. Or I would encourage 'em to, you know, take courses kind of like what you've offered, just to give 'em a little bit more courage or a little bit more just tools. MR: Confidence maybe. LK: Yeah, Confidence. Yeah, Confidence is the word I'm looking for there. That it is just simple images that could really resonate with just a little bit of practice. But then I think also you know, using those tools like the Noun Project and not being afraid to, every once in a while trace it out if it's, you know, to make it look good. I think sharing it with friends has been something that I've really enjoyed and letting them give you a little bit of feedback. I think that that will give them some more encouragement that it's something that people enjoy. And then it's okay to wait, I think, to be inspired. You know, my journals are not full. Every page doesn't have images on it, right? So making sure that you, you keep the practice of journaling, and even if it's just the story and things that happened, and then as the inspiration comes and that you say, "Hey, this is something I really want to capture with an image." You know, making sure that you keep that muscle memory of carrying that notebook around. And then that way when — like I said the other day, watching that SEC Media Day was like, "Wow, I need to capture this. And I think this would be something that I could then share with friends and we could get a conversation going." I move a lot, so connecting with others, if you send 'em an image and say, "Hey, let's talk about this. This is really exciting. This is something I just heard." It can help build that conversation. And so, it's not just, "Well, how you doing? Oh, I'm doing fine." so it's not just the family stuff, but it's also — MR: Go deeper. Yeah. LK: Yeah. MR: Cool. That's really cool. I love those tips. Thanks for sharing those. Well, you know, you're probably on a boat some part of the time, and maybe you don't really have social media stuff. Is there anywhere you would send people to learn more about you? Or is there anything online that they can even find? Is there anything that we can send people to? LK: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn. That's the easiest way professionally to reach out to me. MR: Cool. LK: I do have a couple articles that I've written in the U.S. Naval Institute proceedings so they can find a couple pretty, you know lessons there that I've captured. But yeah, other than that, my bio is on the submarine Pacific Fleet website, if they really wanna see that, but. MR: Go dip. LK: Yeah. MR: Cool. Well, we'll make sure and get a link to your LinkedIn. We'll put that in the show notes and maybe we can have you find links to your article. So if people wanna read those, we can include those in the show notes too. But hey, Luke, this has been great. It's really been fun to hear — you know, when I started this podcast and never thought that I'd have a commander of a submarine talking about sketchnoting. You know, just the world is crazy. You just never know where it's gonna lead, you know. LK: Yes, sir. Absolutely. It's been an absolute pleasure. I'm blessed to have been part of that Cleveland Guardian speaker series to get to know some of the awesome people like you, Mike, and yeah, it's been a pleasure. MR: Well, thanks, Luke. We appreciate you. Thanks for your service. And for everyone who's watching and listening, this will be another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Until the next episode, talk to you soon. LK: You could make it Navy, you know, just for this episode. MR: That's true. Yeah, the Sketchnote Navy. Never thought about that. Yeah. That's funny.

In this episode, Elizabeth Chesney shares her approach to teaching design concepts coupled with handwritten notes to help her subjects understand how design concepts work and why they work. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Elizabeth Chesney Origin Story Elizabeth Chesney's current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Elizabeth Chesney Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Elizabeth’s Website LinkedIn Instagram Comic strip camp case study Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Uniball black rollerball pen Sharpie highlighter Kraft brown paper Ottergami dotted notebook Samsung Galaxy Tab Samsung Pen Concepts Tips There is no standard. Create playbooks or scrapbooks of your work. Get away from your desk. Take a break. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike and I'm here with Elizabeth Chesney. Elizabeth, how are you doing today? Elizabeth Chesney: I'm good, I'm good. It's evening here in the UK, so it's quite relaxed and we've got a bank holiday, so it's even more relaxed. MR: Good, good, good. Well, you'll be laid back and ready to answer all kinds of questions and let us see inside you, the way you think. So I brought Elizabeth on because I follow her on Instagram. I don't know how we crossed paths, but I'm glad we did. And she does a lot of sketchnoting that she shares online, but also taking design concepts, which I really like. Her approach is taking these design concepts and then breaking them down with handwritten notes on top of them to help you understand how these design concepts work and why they work, which is really helpful education, especially for people who sort of sense something's going on, maybe they're not trained as a designer, but they sense something's going on and they're curious about why it works that way. And you sort of fill that gap, which I love that. I love education, I love that whole thing. So that is how we crossed paths. And I thought Elizabeth would be a great person because very recently, you were doing some sketching for a project, then it turned into a full-blown sketchnote. You shared video on Instagram. So maybe we can even talk about that project. And I thought this would be great to talk with her and see how sketchnoting fits into her everyday life, and the stuff she does. So, welcome. EC: Thank you for having me. MR: Yeah, you're welcome. So why don't you start by telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do. EC: That's great. So I am basically in England, despite my accent, I'm actually Scottish, so any of the British listeners are gonna be going, "No, doesn't sound right." But so I though mainly work from home. I am a freelance based marketing designer. I do two types of things. On the average day, I'm either building assets for commercial teams whether that's sort of layout design, landing pages, websites, and a lot of that is UX based as well. So I've kind of got UX interweaved quite a lot in the background. Very similar to yourself, Mike. It's kind of something I've grown into or using skills I've learned before and applying them in that way. And then the other part of me is actually working with seed-level startups, so people who have an idea but actually don't have anything behind them to help them with the funding. So actually, I build lightweight brands. I call them diet brands 'cause they're like mini logos and brand sheets rather than these big brand books. And then helping them with like a commercial slide deck to help with their sort of buy-in when they're presenting their idea. And then some flat user interface design concept. So they kind of got like, this is what we're looking to achieve. And I also work with 'em in a marketing sense of like, how's the best way to present that information? So they might talk to me for 10 minutes and I say, "Well, this is how you frame it, this is how you'd phrase it." And that's part because of the big marketing background, which we'll get into that I have. And so it's kind of like a unique sort of offering for these startups. And I've done a couple now and it really helps 'em look professional at that seed funding level. So I kind of do two arms, one of this sort of big marketing aspect with sort of SME, B2B companies, so you're sort of quite medium enterprise companies and then right at the start founders. So it's quite nice. I've got a mix that I work with. MR: And I suppose the ideal client would be someone that you helped at a seed stage who turns into the middle stage, right, where they grow, and then you can stay with them ideally, I suppose at some point in the future, right? EC: Yeah. Coincidentally, this is my anniversary today of when I decided to go freelance. MR: Really? EC: Yeah. So a year ago, last year is when I went, "I'm going to do freelance. I'm going to make this sort of decision. This is what I want to do. I wanna work in a sustainability climate action sort of sector as well." So purpose-driven businesses. So it's been really nice to sort of work with some of these seed founders who have got these ideas to try and help the planet or help people. And that's the thing, helping people, planet, or animals. That's kind of my three pockets. I'm quite happy at the minute that I'm working with a lot, which has actually enabled social connectivity. So actually, ironically from some tech issues we had at the start of this podcast, I'm working with one which has actually enable telecoms to more rural areas, so lightweight telecoms. So it's cheaper, it's quicker to put in. So giving a lot of rural areas in Scotland and Wales and Ireland, better access to the internet because the pandemic showed how just proportionate access to technology and internet was. And that's what one of these companies I'm working for at the minute, is doing is these startup telecom pools and cabinets to be able to be put in these places so everyone's got access to the same level of internet. So it's quite nice. It's quite nice to see sort of the different ways that these people are helping communities in their own way. MR: That's really cool. So you obviously, just been a year since you've gone independent. EC: Mm-hmm. MR: Talk a little bit about what got you to that point, what did you do before that, and a little bit of why you decided to go independent. That would be really interesting, especially I think about the audience that's listening here, a lot of times they do sketchnoting or visual thinking on the side or as a side thing at work. And there comes a point for some people that they wanna go independent. I know several people, so it might be helpful for them to hear your journey and your thinking and all that. EC: Yeah. Well, I would start my journey really, you know, 20 years ago now. Which makes me feel even older. I was like, oh, brilliant. [Unintelligible 05:56] for a minute. All right. Monty, come here. Sit. Sit. Wait. I don't know if somebody at my door next to -- so hold on. Wait. MR: Okay. We can cut this. EC: He's very agitated, which makes me think it's our door. Calming down. You are calming down. I know. It's making for interesting TV. MR: What kind of dog do you have? EC: He's a Golden Retriever. MR: Oh. EC: So he's a big loud dog, hence the noise. But I do have my bribery box, so he knows that when he gets a treat, he's quiet. So I told you it was gonna be that subtler. Good boy. Good boy. Right. I think that's it. I think they've gone one tea. Right. We're going through it all today. MR: Makes for a fun time. EC: Right. I'll start again. 20 years ago, making me feel old, I did a dual degree. It was design marketing, so it was about 70 percent design, 30 percent marketing, and it was design-focused as well for marketing. So packaging design, point of sale design, print design, very traditional design. Unfortunately, I am that old where, you know, websites really were just becoming a thing. You know, I went to uni when it was zip disks. That was the biggest thing that you could store everything on. And I remember thinking brilliant. And it was Yahoo search rather than Google search. I was very traditionally taught in design, so very much pen and paper. I think my entire first year was markers, pens, and fine liners. It wasn't digital. And then we moved into digital and the Mac labs and all that side of things. From university, I was very fortunate, got a job straight away into a marketing team doing design for the marketing team. Exactly what I did for about six years. And it was really interesting. You've got telling so much about marketing, it's so much about the inner workings of a business as well and how everything works and the commercial teams, sales guys, you know, all that side. Then lucky for everybody who's old enough to remember as well, then we had a financial crash in 2008 where especially in the UK, most people weren't wanting in-house designers, agencies weren't hiring. It wasn't seen as something people wanted. So I kind of, luckily enough having the degree I had, I flipped my degree. Basically, I flipped my career. I went from doing pretty much pure design with a bit of marketing. So, you know, I used to do marketing admin to started department marketing. So I went up in a journey in marketing. I quite rapidly went up to manager level, but I was very employable because I could do design and I could save companies thousands of pounds 'cause I could do everything they were paying somebody externally to do. Or at least I could take some of the load of that budget off. I think because of that, it meant I had a secure job, luckily. And when it got to about six years of doing that, so early 2010, '11, I was like, right, this is definitely the career path. So I kept going, kept doing the marketing management side, and went into digital marketing specifically to really upskilled in web design and really start to take, without knowing it, a UX approach to website design. I was always data-driven. I was always nerdy about where do people go, what journey did it go, what are they clicking on, and you know, speaking to users and all that side of things. And it got really interesting. But I was getting to a point in my career where, unless I went to the director level where you're just managing people a lot of the time and not doing the work, and I like doing the work. I like doing the job. I don't wanna manage people doing the job. I want to do the job. Because of the financial crash, people still weren't hiring in-house designers. So I decided to take quite a bold step and I decided to retrain as a teacher. So about 2014 '15, that was, I think it was, I retrained as a teacher. And a design teacher specifically. You know, I wasn't randomly gonna go and do geography. So went to do design and that's actually when I came across sketchnotes because I'd obviously gone from being hand drawn-taught, very traditional taught to then being thrust into pretty much computer-first design really. And always going to the computer first, it becomes habitual. And I suddenly realized how I'm gonna be teaching kids that some have never designed before. They may have done art at at primary school, so I always taught secondary school. So high school level. And it was like in America it would be like middle and you know, top high school. I realized I was gonna teach 'em these kids how to draw in terms of design versus art. And then I thought I needed also a way of me relearning how to teach them to design 'cause I can quite instinctively draw a box and I'll draw it in a particular way, but how do I communicate to them, how do you draw this box? How do we annotate? MR: Yeah, it's a process. EC: Yeah. How do we annotate it? And I think as you touched on at the start, I got so used to having to teach annotation side, tell you why this thing does this. And that's why I label a lot my drawings educate and saying this is why it does this and this is why this button does this or side of things now. But back then I was struggling. I was like, "How do I teach them this?" And the funny thing about learning to teach, they teach you how to teach not how to teach your subject in a way. It was quite like, "I'm gonna learn how to go back to basics to draw." And I just by randomness came across your book and I was like--and you know, it was one of those things you think, "I'm an experienced designer buying a book about drawing." And you just kind of think, "This doesn't seem right. But also, really right at the same time." You kind of go, it's like somebody buying me a coloring book. You're like really. So I got the book and then I just fell in love with the methodology more than anything 'cause It really works for me, the logical side, the iteration side. And I thought, this is perfect for teaching kids. It's perfect for actually getting me back into that traditional design, but more importantly, I was trying to find one so I could show you these traditional homework sheets of basically if you were a top end student, I'll give you the end picture, and they had to backwork it in the building blocks. And if they were a lesser able child or one that hadn't really experienced any type of design or drawing, I gave them like little shadow boxes. This is kind of how you build up. So there was like, you can really skill it for different skill sets, but it was also, I was using that principle of, right, well how do I do this? And getting the kids to break things down, it was like, "Look at that object, tell me what shapes it is." Or "Draw those shapes under paper," right. Now, we can combine those shapes under paper. And you could see some kids, their light bulb and their head go in. I never thought I could draw a camera. And then suddenly they just thought, oh, it's actually, I was saying it's a serial box. So they could visualize a serial box with like a round circle in front. That's all it is. And it was interesting where you could just see the thought process of realizing it's not art and it's not got a standard, it's not one plus one equals math. There's a different approach to this. And then I really liked the methodology of sketch notes and it sort of kept it since then. And I would say the biggest decision I made in my life was training to teach. And I would say the hardest decision in my life was deciding not to continue. Because it was quite a big debate to admit saying this is not a route for me, 'cause sometimes you just think, "I've committed to this, now I'm just gonna have to stick with my guns." And I was like, "I've become one of those statistics where people go, ah, there's many teachers leaving in the first year of teaching. I'm now one of those statistics." Which I was like, well it's not really 101, but I'm one of them. MR: You have to be real, right? I suppose. EC: Yeah. And I was very conscious, and yourself and your listeners would be aware that if I was out of industry for a certain length of time, it would be very hard for me to get into a certain level in industry rather than start this at the bottom again. So I had to take quite a big bold step halfway through my first year and go, "This is not for me. At the end of this term, I'm going back into industry." So that's what I did. I then went back into industry working for a manufacturing company, and I love how things are made. So that really ignited my passion again, I think. In a way, it was like taking a career break that I think that teaching it was kind of proved to be that sort of, well year and a half of a career break in a weird way. But it realized that I like design. I do like the marketing aspect in a smaller portion, but people are investing now back into design back into branding, regaining the customer base. So I went back into design, which I really enjoyed. And I was focusing now on more sustainability as well. Sustainable business energy sector, which I work a lot in. And then action and climate change. So I've done quite a lot in sustainability. Learning a lot about that side as well. And I'm really focused on helping people with a purpose succeed. And I got to about four or five years into the company I was working for previously last year, and I sat there and thought, again, "I don't wanna go to this marketing director level." I was getting to the same problem that I was like, I just, I like doing the work and I like project managing, which is a bit weird when you think, I don't wanna be a marketing director, but I like managing project, but I don't wanna be that director level. It's no interest to me and not everybody's career path is to go to the top of the pyramid. There's a lot of us like to sit a couple of steps below that. And that's when I thought I'm gonna do freelance properly 'cause a lot of creatives, I've dabbled with it here and there and I've dipped my toe in and I thought actually -- and you know, it's a year ago to the day that sat, I remember on holiday went, "I think this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go freelance. I'm gonna work for purpose-driven companies. I'm gonna work for marketing teams because I know what assets I have to that team 'cause They understand marketing teams." So I come from a very practical approach to what they do. It's like, this is engaging content and it's practical and I talk marketing. I understand how they can get the budgets for what they need to do. I understand all that side. And then the other part of me was going, if I work on that, then a small part of me now is focused on working with seed founders to help their ideas within purpose-driven, whether it's in climate change or whether it's in animal welfare, whether it's telecoms to level up communities. Whether it's all that. And a lot of the time I'm working with them nearly at cost as well because I am a firm believer in giving back. And I know these ones are wanting to do good. They're not doing this to make money, they're doing -- but side note, some of these are not-for-profits anyway, the way they're setting themselves up. And the a quote that's always stood with me and random person that I heard it from, I don't if it's actually him originally, but it's the person I remember saying it, which is the rapper/singer Pitbull of all people. MR: Okay. Yeah. EC: And he said "Money does buy you happiness, you just have to give it away." And I thought it was a really interesting way of framing it. And I was like, so I worked with these smaller projects to try and give back in a different way. So enabling them to have something that will do good at the same time working for these bigger SME marketing teams. Yeah, so for nearly under a year now, I've been doing freelance. I attempted freelance at the started of the year. I have a contract job with a marketing company which secured my time because of the experience I've had. They were like, "Well, work for us for 20 hours a week." Anybody who's freelance will know, you know, any work 60 hours a week, I'm working for myself as well sort of thing. You know, there's no real, "Oh you only do 40 hours freelance." It's like, 'cause you're also marketing and accountant and HR and social media. MR: Right. Yeah. EC: Yeah. So you know, social media. Video grapher is my thing at the minute. So it's interesting because that journey, all those things I've gone through and experience I've had like the financial crash made me more prepared to be freelance 'cause I knew what I had to put in place to cope with those sort of events. The pandemic also had the same effect. I know what I need to do to that. So hopefully, this is now my journey. MR: Wow. That's really great. And I would think too, you know, going back to your education, you took that year and a half to kind of potentially switch careers and it was clear that it wasn't the direction. But I would think that that education on how to educate as much as, you know, it didn't fit for you to be a full-time thing, you found ways to integrate that. That's what I think attracted me when I was on Instagram. I see you doing that kind of work in the things you're doing. And I imagine for those seed-level startups, you're teaching them how to position themselves and how to reframe, what's the narrative, right? All those things are things you can teach out of your wealth of knowledge in marketing and then teach them in a way that fits their situation. Would that be a fair way to think of it? EC: Yeah. And myself, I'm a constant learner. Like one of the master classes was actually yours, an Interaction design foundation. So, you know, I've watched one of your master classes, I think I've done one of your other ones as well, one you did as an independent webinar. And I'm always wanting to learn and I always like to experience how other people teach as well thinking, oh, I like that or I like that -- MR: Me too. EC: -- that technique. And I'll be like, "Oh, I'll write that down." And funny enough, I have that in my sketch notes. I have my playbook, which we'll probably get to in terms of tips and that. And I write everything down and I'm always wanting to learn, even if it's subjects that are totally nothing to do because I've just got an interest in subject. I've done a criminology diploma because I was just really interested in like CSI and things. I was like, "I just wanna know more about this." I have no interest in doing it as a job, but I wanna learn more. And through my sort of social media and part of what I've tried to do with some of the, you know, here's the buttons and this is why this is this and like trying to break it down to people, like trying to understand to them why like three lines of text, why it should be orientated like this and the different shapes it should do. And it's really nice getting feedback from a couple of people who are actually junior marketing people that are following me going, "Oh that's just made it look so much better now my PowerPoint." And they're applying these little concepts in different ways and it was so nice. A woman was so proud, they sent me like, "Look at this. I took your ideas." And I didn't even know they were following me 'cause I've never interacted with them. But they were so tough just to say. And I was like, it's like that teaching approach. And I've got like a whole program of other things that it's just getting the time unfortunately of other things I wanna say like this way, this is why it looks better than this way. Both are fine, but you know, let's have a look, breakdown. So it's kind of that, it's so nice to see little things I've done just to try and like help and part that information, and as other people are sucking in, like the little silent people, they don't interact, they don't like your stuff. They don't comment on your stuff, but they're clearly just sit -- MR: You're having an influence for sure. Yeah. EC: Yeah. And I get like little messages going, "How did you edit that in?" Like they go, "Well how did you do that in Premiere Pro? And I'm like, "Well I didn't. I used such and such to start with. I said, "It's far easier, if you're not a pro with something like Premiere Pro or something like that." Goes, "Use Canva, use Adobe Express. Just use something that's easier." Sort of thing. Don't think you have to use its big software 'cause the big boys use it. You know what I mean? MR: Right. EC: And I always say, you know, "Use something that's just user-friendly." And that's the kind of the wins. MR: Yeah, exactly. I mean I use iMovie for almost everything, podcasts. I've used it for my teaching. So when I do my training and I cut it up and turn it into a video for sale, I'm just using iMovie. I mean, I've always believed this, like a lot of times we tend to think that we need the big software when simple software that's default on your machine is often more powerful than you realize because you just overlook it and that there's opportunities to really push it further than you really think it could push. EC: And I think like going back to my secondary school education, the most advanced type of art software was the equivalent of whatever paint was back then. MR: Yeah, exactly. EC: We were drawing everything in paint. And I have one of the first things I ever did upstairs, it was a little folder that my mom -- my mom was obviously like, look what she drew sort of thing. And you know, we just think that's cringe. "It's cringeworthy, mom. But now I'm 40, I think that's actually quite cool that I've got something that I did digital or way back when." And I remember looking at every time going, but on the other hand, paint could do a lot back then. And that was 20, and on CorelDRAW, I think we were using and quo we were saying with layout design quo and things. So, you know, I'm in the age with Dreamweaver, used to be owned by Macromedia rather than Adobe. And I do sometimes think like -- I always say to people, Microsoft Paint can actually do a huge amount. 'Cause I'm a Mac -- not a Mac user, I'm a PC user. I use Notepad by default for a lot of things, typing up notes. And it's so great if you are doing web development 'cause it strips all the code out, it strips all your formatting so you know, you've got a clean copy and paste when you're putting in something. So I do think that we forget the simpler things. And it's the same, we've going back to just sketching, going back to that idea of stop forcing myself to use Illustrator straight away because I'm not a pro at Illustrator. I have to keep Googling stuff 'cause I always forget stuff. When you have to remember how to use Photoshop, Illustrator, Premiere and InDesign, and Figma on your average day, you get to the point of "There's only so much I'm gonna remember how to do." Sort of thing. MR: Yeah, yeah. You focus on the things you use often, right? And you Google things you use occasionally, which is fine. I mean that's -- those tools. EC: I wish Google when I was learning would've been brilliant when I was at university. MR: No kidding. Well, we're on this discussion of software. We sort of hinted at this when we prepared for this, talking about the drawing and software, and so, I think agree in this sense that I think it's important that you do your concepting on paper with pen to get the idea and to think through the idea before you get into software. My theory or my view is, the problem with software as powerful as it is, even the simple stuff, is once you enter software, you tend to adapt to the things that the software lets you do or even to this discussion we're having now. You adapt to the things you know how to make the software do, which is a narrow subset of what the software probably can do. But by using pencil sketches or sketchnotes or whatever technique as ugly or beautiful as it is, it helps you think through where you're gonna go before you ever touch any bit of software. So you're coming with this approach that's not hindered in any way by what the software can or can't do. It's more like what's the solution that we're solving for the person, the customer, the user using this thing. Let's start from that point, which, you know, that's our UX perspective. And then work back to making it happen and then bring the tools in. Would you kind of track along the side of that and have you seen that I would apply? EC: Yeah, I would. And actually, I would say it pretty much aligns with exactly a project I've just sent to print. I've nerve-rackingly sent to print. It's always one of those moments, especially if you're so used to digital design, you've got send something to actually print. You're like, "I'm gonna check this 500 times." So I'm gonna actually a bit show. This is useless for people just listening rather than those watching. MR: If you're listening to the podcast, look on the link for the YouTube and you can check it out. EC: So this is something -- I'm gonna try and get it in screen. There we go. MR: You got it on there. That's all in. EC: There we go. So that is actually quite a few sheets worth of work. But this was deliberately designed in a comic book style. And it was something that I knew if I went to the computer, I'm gonna go and default a couple of things. I'm gonna look at some stock illustrations that can get me the boxes and the styles and the effects. And then I'm gonna go quite rigid and I'm gonna do this. And I'm thinking, first of all, I've got to think it through because it's about actually how product is made from -- it's that telecoms brand company. So how someone gets from that sheet of metal all the way through to a roadside cabinet with a telecoms pool coming out of it and a wifi device at the top of it and all the stages in between? And I've got to remember what those stages are. And I think taking it back to pen and paper, it was kind of a big sketchnote gone wrong. I was starting to actually do it as very -- I did say it was a sketchnote gone wrong 'cause I did originally plan just to do like little sketchnotes, going right, this would be this and this will be this. Then I took another sheet and went, "Oh no, I'll just draw it out properly." And then I got to the third sheet 'cause and I'll add a little bit of marker pen. It literally just started to build up. I was like, "This is quite funny. This is me really not doing sketchnotes now." I was like, "I've abandoned it. It's not a sketchnote, it's a full-on illustration." But the best thing about that was, it took me maybe a couple of hours to draw all out, get the concept, a few annotations kind of like the teaching side as well. Just took a picture of it and sent it to the MD and went, "This is the idea and I don't wanna spend time doing a illustrate if you don't like the concept of this being this comic book superhero theme." And he was like, "I like it. I really like it." Luckily, he's got a good vision. He can see what's gonna be the end result as well. He knows what I'm capable of so he knows what would be produced. And even when he looked at this very basic sketch, he went, "Oh by the way, it's not called that, it's called this so you need to google this." So you already gave me feedback just because the sketch was just good enough where you could get what it was supposed to be, but you could pick up on, "Oh you've not quite got that terminology. So just point in the right path." So my next version of that was fine and then fine lined it, took pictures of it, and then took it into Illustrator. And I think it's better because it's, a lack way of putting it got that one key approach. And my lines aren't quite parallel. Like curves aren't perfect because I've traced the image of that. And it's given a very hand-drawn effect. And rather than if I had gone to illustrate straight away, I know I would've done really nice straight lines. A really nice arc. And it would've looked too polished. And whole point of this was, it's supposed to be somebody sketched out like a story like you do with comics. Sometimes I have to remember that's actually gonna be a better approach. And I think that's why stripping back to pen and paper and having that base skillset really helpful in trying to convey an idea as well and get buy-in. Before I go and invest 40 hours of my time, "Are we all right with this one hour of time I've invested?" MR: Well, and you have to think that way as an independent especially, 'cause that means if you spend 40 hours going all the way with that, that's 40 hours you can't spend on something else that maybe you should be, right? It's sort of a seed idea that, "Hey, is this right?" Even if it gets you arguing over the concept, at least it's movement. And then you can move from there. Either you'd say, "No, that's too loose. I don't want that." Or "Hey, it looks great, he chose that way, but at least it gives him an option and is our invested." And you can now choose your adventure based on that. EC: I think the reason behind doing it as well goes back to maybe the last two to three years of really getting deep into UX design in terms of websites where really starting with pen and paper wireframes. Pen and paper wireframes, then even moving into just block design and saying, "This is where the hero shot's gonna be. This is where the interest's gonna be." And laying it out blocks like that before even building it. And again, web design, we get so carried away from going, getting a brief and going right bang, here's your website. And then going, "Oh actually we don't really like that and it doesn't flow here. But doing it in that stage work, which does take more time, but then that's kind of part of the investment with UX rather than just going straight into web design. And that's part of what I've been trying to do when doing freelance is going, but even when I approach the marketing teams, I go, "I don't do your brochure straight out the bat. What I do is I go, here's the general skeleton structure. This is what your page layout's gonna be." And I give them like a skeleton grid of their say 16 pages. These are where your content blocks are. This is roughly where your imagery is gonna be. This is the idea. And I'll give them a like a mood ball going, "And this is the visuals." And then they can buy in on that. So when they produce the end result, it should be pretty much on the button rather than coming back going, "Oh actually, we'd rather it was a bit like this. And could those be amalgamated together?" Don't go it wrong. You do get ones like that. Where you've somehow, it's been lost in translation. But again, it's to try and help me knowing that that's kind of way marketing teams work as well. If you can give them an idea. If you've got somebody with a remote bit of creative brain, they can visualize it already in their head as well. They kind of know what the end result's gonna be. And it just helps and gives them confidence that they know I know what I'm doing. So I kind of strip it down even if it's digitally kind of blocks. But yeah, I think going straight into the actual design end phase. And in a way that's what sketchnotes has taught me is to not always go for that sort of thing. Not always go for the end result with a color and a fine line and all that. You know, use a pen and paper, use a pencil sort of thing. MR: That seems to work. I've been doing this for many years and sometimes I'll jump right to the computer and stop myself and come back and get out my iPad or a piece of paper and just sketch the concept. And it always seems that those projects turn out better. They iterate better, they're smoother. They're more thought out. Like all those things that you want in an end product, ends up getting bound into them when I approach 'em that way. And typically, I do, but there's times when, if I'm in a hurry, I might forget that step and I'll have to like, "Okay, stop. Let's go back let's do some sketching." Even if it's just a little bit in my bullet journal, just to think through the process, that might be enough, right. It doesn't have to be some crazy detailed thing, but a little dump of ideas and seeing it helps reinforce things and give it direction, which is really valuable. EC: Yeah. I even do that with quite a few of my social media posts. If they're gonna be actually illustrating a topic or I go for one that's about buttons. You know, I've got them in one of my notebooks where I was going, right, this is how it's gonna lay out, these are the buttons I'm gonna talk about. Giving myself the space and oh that's not gonna work. Do the next one. The next one. Rather than going straight into these ones were done in Figma. So rather than going straight into Figma and going, "Oh no, I have to resize this and I have to move this." I already know what it's gonna be. MR: You got the map. Yeah. EC: Yeah. And you can go straight in. And I do think going digital first sometimes isn't the best way. And I think that's one of the big benefits of having the career that I've had where, you know, my first year university was pretty much analog and that set me off success. You know, we learned proper old school market techniques. You know, with the blending up and sort of thing and you know, and having to use masking tape to keep your line script. So I've learned all of those skills. You wouldn't think that looking at some of my designs. I look at some of my sketchnotes and going, "I have no idea how I've got the degree I've got sometimes. Or how I was allowed to teach children how to draw." But then that's kind of one of the things I try and do is go, "Don't get hung up on the way it looks. Just get it down." Sort of thing. MR: Yeah. Functional, functional, functional. EC: Yeah. MR: That's really cool. This is a great story and it's brought back a lot of memories for me as well. So that's encouraging. Let's shift a little bit. I'd love to hear the tools that you like to use. You've hinted at some on the design on the marketing side which you can certainly go into. You can start either analog or digital, whichever way you'd like first. EC: Well, I think we should start analog because you know, we're saying we should go analog first. I'd like to say I'm a black pen enthusiast. I have a lot of black pens, those listening to the audio, there. I try lots -- MR: A bucket full black pens. EC: Yeah. Obviously, some of them are different thicknesses and some are like brush tip and normal tip. But doesn't matter which black pen I use, I go back to an actual Uniball finite pen. Just 'cause it's a really simple, nice black pen. And I like it 'cause it's reliable and it's consistent. And usually come in packet of like five 'cause I seem to lose them. I don't how I'll lose them. It's like batteries, you know, they just disappear. But I really like the Uniball high fine pen. And you can get them in like every supermarket here in the UK. Especially, at the minute it's back-to-school stuff. So, funny enough, I've just bought another packet. I like them as well 'cause they're consistent. It doesn't really matter what paper I use, they come out the same. They don't really bleed and it's just got their nice crispness to it. And then with them, if you think I'm a black pen enthusiast, you still need to see the amount of marker pens I own. But I have a huge amount of color and marker pens. But for the sketch notes side, I found I was trying to focus too much on the color instead of just giving it a bit of a highlight and a bit of a punch more than anything. And then my brain tweaked them I was like, well just use highlighters sort of thing. So one of the things I really like is, these are the Sharpe highlighters. So the s-not and they come in about20 or so colors MR: Look like nice pastel colors. If you're listening, they're not the traditional intense crazy colors. It's more like pastel colors. EC: Yeah. And I think that's why we like 'em because they've got a bit of a punch of a traditional neon sort of highlight. You know, they've got a bit of that punch, but they've got the softness of the pastel sort of very zebra, I think bring out a pastel range. I've got twitch, I've got God knows how many of them as well. MR: Oh, okay. EC: But they're kind of very vibrant and they come in a whole range of colors. You wouldn't get that -- you know, there's no neon, real true neon, but them combined, they just give that highlight. And what I try to do is I look at what I'm taking a sketchnote off. So if we go back to -- they're always learning. That's what I use my sketchnotes for is always like watching the webinars and using it to remember what I'm learning. Or when I read books, I try and condense a book I've read into one or two pages of notes. So one of the things I do is, so I've got quite nicely got to actually a page use those. So I try and use the colors just -- I pick a couple of colors to match maybe the brand of the person that I'm watching. Or it could be to do with the topic because then it helps me remember it and learn it. I'm that design nerd, so I'm kind of thinking he needs to have a nice theme. I can't just rock up with any random color. MR: Yeah. EC: So that's kind of how I do. I always have a Uniball pen on me. I've got them in my bags. I've got 'em in the car because they are just so relatively foldable as well. They're really quite cheap. It's only like a few bucks for a pack of three or five, however many they come in. MR: That's great. Yeah. EC: And paper-wise, I'm quite particular. So when I'm doing the actual UX design, so when I'm doing wireframes because I really don't want to use color. These are black and white and I know if I use white paper I'm gonna add color 'cause I know what sort of person I am. MR: Interesting. EC: Yeah. So I use Kraft brown paper. MR: Oh wow. EC: So deliberately you put color on that, it doesn't really show at all. So I've got like a nice sort of spiraled brown and it's quite a nice size as well. So sort of landscape orientation, it's kind of monitor then portrait orientation, you've kind of got more of a mobile style. I've got a couple of these now and they're quite thick as well. So if I wanna use a heavier-duty thicker black pen, they work really well. MR: They can't bleed. EC: Yeah. And so I use Kraft, and it forces me not to use color. It forces me to keep -- this is purely about wire framing. This is where the base element's go in the page. And then I use post-it notes to highlight up to like, this is where it's gonna move. In terms of the notebooks, it was funny enough, I was just looking at the sketchnote one the other day. But I use quite a thick, really thick gram paper. And I like nice notebooks. It's one of my things. I don't like just using generic paper as well. And I think 'cause those sharpies can be quite heavy duty. It's a Sharpie at the end of the day, you know, it's gonna have a bit of a bleed through the page. So I'm quite conscious of having a really heavy gram paper. And I like dot grid. I can't do the blank paper. 'Cause Even those comic book strips, actually it's on the reverse side of blue graph paper. So I can roughly see the graph through it. So I've got an idea of where the lines are. But I like dot grid. All of my general notebooks are dot paper or grid paper, depending on how people call them. And that's kind of what I like analog-wise, I'm quite traditional. I think. I'm not really into anything fancy. MR: So for the heavy gram notebook, that looked like a LEUCHTTURM, if I were to guess. I don't know If that's the brand. EC: No, I'm gonna pronounce this wrong. I already know I'm gonna -- Ottergami MR: Oh, okay. Ottergami. I haven't heard that. There's a fun shot now. So for bullet journalists. Or bullet journalists and they have quite thick paper. EC: Yeah, it's really nice quality. From my sustainability side and also, 'cause I am actually a vegan as well, so I'm very conscious about them not having real leather on the covers and things. And it is a bit like your own one, which -- that's how I came across it. 'Cause I was looking for notebooks that weren't real leather covers. But I do like it because it is so heavy duty and it's got that nice quality. And I think if I'm gonna be writing something I'm gonna look back on, I want it to feel nice. You know, I want that tact. I like the tactileness sort of thing. And I think that's, again, goes back to being old-school print design. You like the feel of the paper and it's got the nice gram effect, et cetera. MR: Yeah, exactly. Now what about if we switch to digital, assuming that you don't have any other analog tools that you'd like to share? What would be the tool? EC: Well, I have a lot of analog tools, but I don't think any of them are -- I've got, you know, every type of color pencil going. Digital-wise, 'cause I'm not a Mac user, I am a Windows user, so I've got a Samsung Galaxy Tab. And I use Concepts because it's just a brilliant app. MR: That's a great tool. EC: Yeah. The Concepts app. And I would say in the last two years, the Samsung Pen has been really up its game with its sensitivity. It works like my old Apple iPad Pro, what was it called? Yeah, iPad Pro that had the tablet. I had one of the first edition ones and then Procreate stop supporting it, so I sold it. And that's when I was like, well actually it was the last piece of Apple products I had. So I thought, well, this is the time I'm gonna move to Galaxy Tab. And I wanted something smaller because this is small enough to go into, you know, a small like rucksack. So in a out and about. And I love the Concepts app. Really been looking at using it in the last year or so. I like the never-ending art board as well, although sometimes it kind of feels like you don't have scale. So I've noticed when I've gone back and looked at sketches I've done or UX wireframes where some look proportionally fine and then I zoom out and then somehow I've managed to do giant boxes and tiny boxes. But because it's vector-based, at least you can start to resize things. MR: Yeah. You can size it. Yeah. EC: But sometimes you kinda lose the awareness of where you are 'cause it's obviously a smaller screen 'cause it's a Galaxy Tab rather than like a big iPad Pro. But I do like the Concepts app. I've tried a few and they just didn't seem to have that sensitivity with the Samsung Pen. But equally they didn't have even just a free version of Concepts, the wide range of colors, wide range of pens available and not. So yeah, I do like sketchnoting though, because you can press Undo and you can change the line that you just thought it's a bit dodgy. MR: Yeah. That's nice. EC: And it does the smoothing out. I was like, "Oh, I like this. Why can't I do this a real life for a pen and paper." MR: Yeah, exactly. So the tab I think is more like an A5 size? EC: It is. To be fair, it's not far off the size of notebooks. MR: It'd probably be closest to an iPad Mini if someone's used to iPad. It's probably more in that range. EC: Yeah, it is a nice size. And I got that 'cause I wanted something that was bigger than my phone for actually learning because a lot of learnings now online you can't get books for a lot of things anymore. But I didn't wanna have to keep using my phone. And when I've spent 11 hours of the day at my computer, I don't wanna have to have my computer on an evening. So I bought it originally to be able to read eBooks or do some of the courses I've signed up to. MR: And do a training. Yeah. EC: Yeah. And even like your webinar, I think I watched it on my Galaxy Tab or potentially drew it on my Galaxy Tab. I can't remember now. But I use it for that. And then it's like the penny dropped. I was like, "Well, why don't I do some sketch notes on this?" And then I've started to use it more for the wireframes because it's easy then to take that and then put it into likes of Figma. And that's I found rather than having to take pictures and then move them in. So I'm using Concepts more for wireframes than sketchnoting. I think the tactlessness of the notebook for sketchnoting. MR: Well, that's really cool. We don't have lots and lots of PC-only users or Galaxy Android users. So it's good to have represented because I know there must be more out there. So it's good to hear that. Good feedback. Yeah. EC: Well I was like -- my computers all the way through university, even all the way up to near enough when I went to teacher training, were all Macs. For those who are watching, you'll see I've got in the background probably you can just see I've got an original iPhone, an iPod on the wall. Still have a better battery life to old iPhone 'cause they still work. And I had the old school, massive Mac, the Blueberry Mac with the big blue colors. So you know that I had one of them. So I've always been Mac from training. And then it just got more into PC-based because I knew a large portion of my audience were using PCs. The market teams teams were using PCs. It was an easy sell to people to, "Well, we don't wanna put a Mac into the IT system and things." So I got used to using a Windows-based ecosystem. And then gradually as things in my Apple ecosystem died off, they just replaced with a Windows and Android. MR: Yeah, makes sense. EC: So I kind of smoothly moved over. MR: That's pretty cool. Well, thanks for sharing your tools. People always like to have this section so they can learn about new tools and try things out. I know I learn about tools all the time from this section as well, so. EC: When I walk the dog and listen to the podcast, I'm always like, "Oh, I didn't know that." Or, "Oh, there's another pen I'm gonna -- I think that's another pen I'm gonna buy." And then go back to the Uniball. Hence the tub of nearly 50 black pens that I own. MR: Wow. Well, let's go to the next portion of the show, which is your three tips. So I always frame it as someone's listening, they're individual thinking, whatever that means to them. Maybe they've gotten into a rut and they need just some encouragement. Like what would be three things you would encourage them to do to kind of get back into a good rhythm? EC: I think the first one, and this is something that I used to champion a lot when I was teaching and trying to get kids to get out the mindset of. You've just come from, you know, maths or you've come from geography or history or wherever it might be. And you've come and sat in this room, you've gotta get kids credit 'cause they've gotta suddenly switch from one class to another. And I'll just be sitting going, I can't get my head into this mindset. Or it's not perfect or it's whatever it might be. And I used to say to them at the level they're doing, or the level that most designers are doing, there's no standard. Don't worry about a standard. Try and remember there's no standard. This is not maths. One plus one doesn't equal two. So your standard is not my standard. Your design is not my design. And that's why I actually love sketchnotes 'cause everybody's is completely different. Everyone's styles are different. And trying to remember that unless you're doing architecture and building regulations, design is quite free. And don't you put that pressure on yourself? So give yourself a break. Remember that you are setting the standard in a way and try and give yourself a break. 'Cause I think we all kind of get a bit too hung up on, "Oh, it needs to be like this." And it's kinda like, no, just, there's no standard to design really. It's, quite freeing. It's not as free as art. Granted. But that's very expressive. You know, you've got the fine line. You know, we do have some standards, you know, we're not going to the really, really fluid art world, but yeah, try and remember that you are the one giving yourself a hard time. So let up on yourself. There is no standard. So I would say that's probably number one. The second one is a bit something that I wish I did a lot early on in my career. And I've only started doing in the last, I think five, six years actually after I finished teaching, really, I'm gonna get an example, is I create playbooks 'cause a hybrid of a sketchbook, a scrapbook, important notes. Things that I find I think are really interesting that I want to sort of scrapbook. And the reason why I wish I started this earlier -- so for those listening, I'm sort of holding up some like cutouts I've done and I've annotated them and things that I've found online or logos and packaging that I like and I cut them out and I sort of stick them in and I write why I like them or why it's worked and so annotating them. But I also do my sketch notes in it from the books that I've read or the webinars I've attended. And I have one for each year. And the reason I like them is sometimes it's really good to just, if you've got that mental block, is go back and look at something, pick a subject you've read and think it could inspire you. Or if you think, oh, this is no good, look what you were doing five, six years ago. And it's like, when I look at the thing I designed when I was 15 using Microsoft Paint or whatever it would've been, I'm like, "Oh yeah, I've actually come quite a way since then." Sort of thing. So I wish I did these earlier because it's so interesting to look back on. But more importantly, I get inspiration every time I look at them because it is personalized to me. It's my journey. It's my type of design and it helps inspire me to look at it and go, "Oh yeah, why didn't I try that?" Or "Oh wait, I forgot about this." And sometimes it can spark that idea or give you the confidence boost. You remember you can actually do this, right? It's like when I draw badly or -- I wouldn't say badly. It's not a word I like to use. But I draw in a way where I just think, "How do people pay me to do this?" Sort of thing. I deliberately sometimes go -- and I've got like some really nice hand-drawn, colored in really heavy-duty, 20 hours sort of pencil colors drawings in my playbooks, in my sketchbooks because it's just to remind myself I do actually have that talent. It's just my brain's not using that talent at the minute. It's clearly using it for something else. You know, it's worrying about, "What I'm gonna have from a dinner." So it's nice to look back and it kind of reaffirms where you are, but also gives you that inspiration. And I would say the third one is probably a classic one is walk the dog. The amount of things I can solve by walking my dog. I take him out for a walk, 45 minutes later I'm either re-inspired, I fixed a problem while either walking the dog. I might think, "Oh, this is a different way to approach it." The dog is brilliant 'cause I talked to him like a crazy dog owner I am, you know, and he doesn't answer back. He has a good go, granted, but he generally doesn't answer back. And I would say, so take that tea break, go in the garden, walk the dog. Like during a pandemic was harder. So I used to go in the garden and just walk up and down a few times throwing a ball with a dog because as soon as my brain -- it is that adage of, to be creative, you also have to be bored. You have to have that bit where your brain is not thinking about what you're trying to think about. And that's why we have our best ideas in the shower when you're going to sleep because you've suddenly switched off. So I try sometimes a dog, it's four walks a day. MR: It's a lot I'm sure. EC: Yeah. Well, it gets to a point where it's like, "Oh, do we have to? Do we have to?" So I think we really underestimate getting away from your desk. Get out to nature, walk the dog. Just, you know, that fresh air is something about it that for me really works to help me get over that struggle. And it could be any struggle, it could be a design struggle, it could be from the marketing stuff that I work on teams with, saying how should we approach this? So I find it's one of the best things I've -- well say it's nine years in now. It's the best thing I've had really in terms of my tools as well, is very analog tool. MR: Yeah. That's good. That's good. Reset. EC: Mm-hmm. MR: Well, those are great tips. Thanks for sharing those, Elizabeth. Very helpful and encouraging. Making me wanna take my dog for a walk now, which maybe I should do after this 'cause I've been sitting for an hour, so EC: Well, yeah. One of my friends, she says she plays with the kids. She says she'll go and she'll just build Lego with the kids or she'll go and color in with the kids because it is one of the few friends I've got that's in a relatively similar role. So she gets it as well. And she says sometimes just doing that and drawing it back to a more basic level makes her go, "Ah, that's how I could approach this problem." Or "That's how I could do this logo idea." 'Cause She's very much logo design and she's like, ah, that's -- you know, it's like the penny drops moments 'cause she's doing something related, but at the same time not thinking about it. So I really do think sometimes you have to give yourself 10 minutes to go do something else. MR: Yeah. Let's your subconscious work for a bit, I guess. You know, so it can kind of churn on things and give you back some ideas. EC: Yeah. MR: So Elizabeth, where can we find you? What's the best place to locate you? A website, social media? Where do you hang out? EC: My website is Below Two, so spelled out T-W-O.co.uk. And that's pretty much all of my social media is the same. So it's Below Two Studio. So whether it be Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, the whole lot, very rare. I've managed to secure it on all of the platforms. Especially in today's world where so many things are taken up. But you can find me there. I'm generally mostly on LinkedIn and Instagram. I've quoted Twitter there, which just start getting called using X, that's the term. But yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram mainly and my website, which is a key thing. MR: Okay. That's really great. And you can go check that out everyone. We'll have of course, as always show notes and samples. And if we can get some samples from Elizabeth, we'll link to those as well so we can, she can throw 'em on our website and send us some links and we can see some pictures of her playbooks and some other things that she's talked about, if you're listening. EC: It'll be great once this has actually come out, the thing I've just done a comic book stuff, we'll actually have all the end results. MR: Oh. EC: It's part of a huge exhibition that the entire standard is now gonna be comic book superhero design. So we've done the whole lot to that sort of style now. MR: Wow. Cool. EC: So hopefully, I'll have some quite like, literally here's the idea here. Is it now fully? MR: That would be cool. Yeah, that'd be great. EC: So hopefully I'll have that. MR: Great. Well, thanks Elizabeth for all the sharing and teaching you do on Instagram that I've seen and for your generosity and hanging out with us and telling us your story and laughing and having the dog bark and the network flake out and all the things that we've gone through. It's been a joy just to hang out with you. EC: Yes, thank you very much for having me. It's made a nice start to the bank holiday weekend here. MR: Well, that's great. That's great. For all those who are listening or watching, this will wrap up another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Until next time, talk to you soon.

In this episode, Jono Hey shares how he visually represents complex ideas in simple ways that are sticky, memorable, and quick to get to grips with. He also talks about building a platform that connects schools with substitute teachers. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Jono Hey Origin Story Jono Hey's current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Jono Hey Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Sketchplanations Website Sketchplanations the Podcast Sketchplanations on Patreon Sketchplanations on on Instagram Sketchplanations on LinkedIn Jono’s Album: Fresh Start Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Moleskine dotted notebooks Leuchtturm1917 dotted notebooks Uniball Vision Elite pens Copic markers iPad Pro SketchBook Pro Tips The first draft is always perfect. Keep it simple. Keep going. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production, and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike and I'm here with Jono Hey. Jono, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you. Jono Hey: Well, thanks, Mike. It's so good to finally meet you after all these years. MR: Yeah, it's great. We've connected years and years ago, specifically for a sample or I guess one of your pieces that we included in one of the sketchnote handbooks, sketchnote workbooks because I thought your stuff was really cool, and the way you thought about visualization was really interesting. So that's, I think, how we crossed paths initially, probably 10 years ago, almost. JH: Yeah, I think it was probably about 10 years ago. MR: Isn't that crazy? JH: Yeah. And I came across your work from originally when you did the re-work book. That's for-- MR: That's right. JH: -- which was also a long time ago. MR: Yeah. That was more like 15 years ago almost that now. So crazy how time flies. Anyway, so that's how we crossed paths. I've always loved your work, and I'm amazed at your prolific nature and your ability to continuously produce these sketchplanations. And if you are watching or listening, and you've not heard of, or seen Jono's sketchplanations, they're amazing. He basically visually represents often very complex ideas in simple ways. So you can sort of get the concept of the idea with some notes and such to help, you know, describe it. Is that a fair way to describe what your sketchplanations are? JH: Yeah, definitely. It's about taking a concept and trying to just represent it in a picture in a way that's sort of sticky and memorable and quick to get to grips with. I think over the years I've definitely started adding a bit more layer of description, which you can take optionally, but you don't have to have it. That's the idea is that you have that surface level. If it's interesting, you can dive in, and if not, carry on, you know. MR: Yeah. And I'd love to hear sort of the origin story of that and what is driving you to continue, but first, tell us a little bit about what you do and who you are, and then you can jump right into your -- I always love to have people do their own origin story. So how did you end up doing what you're doing? Did you draw as a kid? Did somehow you snuck through school without it being shaken out of you? Or how did that all begin? So start with who you are, what you do, and then where you came from. JH: Cool. Yeah, as you said, I'm Jono, and I'm mostly here because of my work for Sketchplanations, which is a weekly newsletter working towards explaining the world one sketch at a time. With the illustration side, I was lucky enough to do some illustrations for Bill Gates's book recently, the -- MR: Oh, good. JH: -- "How to Prevent the Next Pandemic," which was really cool. The illustrations, Sketchplanations has all been sort of a side project, which I've been doing now for the 10 years or so, that we've crossed paths. In my day job, I run product development. So I've been a UX designer and I run product delivery. I'm now on my second startup, which has been a really cool and really interesting parallel journey, and it feeds a lot of content and the sorts of things that come into Sketchplanations. You ask the origin story so I will go right back. MR: Okay, good. JH: Because I think it makes sense as to why I am doing what I'm doing. And I think if I go back far enough, I always used to quite like drawing, but I was never particularly good at art in the sense that they were always better artists than me, but I was always quite good at the maths and the science side of things. And so, if I think back to, what's high school in the U.S. or A-levels in the UK, I did a bunch of science and maths-based ones, and then I did art. Art was always the one, which I was very happy to go spend my lunchtime working on my art homework, but of course, I didn't do as well in my art as all the other stuff. And so, what I ended up doing was design engineering, which is a lovely way to blend the two things together really. So you're trying to draw for a purpose and you're trying to communicate things, come up with ideas, but then express them on paper. But they have to work as well, so you have to have the math and the science bit right. I don't know who your heroes were growing up, but DaVinci was always one of mine. And it's quite difficult to, you know, get the breadth of what evidently Leonardo da Vinci was able to do, but that for me, when I was growing up, was always ideal, beautifully using his art to express like scientific or engineering concepts, which was cool. So in many ways, I think that's sort of lives on in what I was still been trying to do. Way back, I was good at science and maths, but I always enjoyed the art and I was always interested also in like creative thinking, and so, when I came out of university, I spent a lot of time working on creativity, really, like design, creativity, how do you come up with new, cool ideas? And I was really interested in how we think I got really into mind maps. So I use mind maps all the time. When pre preparing for this, and mind maps are brilliant for like visual recording and sketchnoting. I was so interested in it that I went over to UC Berkeley, where I did a Ph.D. studying new product development. MR: Oh, wow. JH: That was a really nice combination. So they had a great program there where you have the engineering side, but then you have the business side from the business school there. And then you have sort of industrial design, which was a collaboration with the California College of the Arts. And so, you bring all of that together and then you want to come up with new products. But again, it's really about communicating ideas, but in a ways that the ideas have to work. Like new products, they have to be feasible and they have to be buildable, you know. MR: Mm-hmm. JH: UC Berkeley, I think was such an interesting place because I was also able to go explore, you know, like sociology and research methods. I did some really interesting classes in the language school there with George Lakoff on Metaphor. I was in the Berkeley Institute of Design, and they had a big focus on HCI, which is human-computer interaction. And so, there was lots of psychology concepts that people were bringing in and were going around the place. And of course, I was involved with software. So it was lots of different influences. And I think you probably see pieces of all of those in the topics that I choose for Sketchplanations MR: Yeah. JH: After UC Berkeley, I found a fantastic company called Jump Associates who was actually -- I did a class at Stanford and the professor there works at Jump Associates. They're a growth strategy firm, which was all about helping companies figure out what they should do next, particularly when it came to new products. But they had some really brilliant ways of working which still influenced me to this day. And what they were really good at, one of the things they were really good at was visual recording 'cause that's what we called it there, but in many ways, it was sketchnoting. And so, we do a lot of working with clients where you do a workshop, you bring all the right people in the room, and you put provocative questions about, like, the nature of the project. We're trying to track what are the biggest challenges and so on. And then somebody on our team would be up there with a big whiteboard capturing the conversation and trying to get down the key ideas, and so, they didn't get lost. And I've always had an interest in this, like, the ideas don't get lost in this sort of ether. You know, you had a conversation, some really good ideas, they floated away. Somebody wrote down something, but it wasn't necessarily the good things. And I just saw the power of like, you take a conversation and you put it up real time on the board, and it steers the conversation because it helps people come back to previous concepts that have been raised. If somebody says, "Oh, the way I think of it is like this and this and this," and you put them up, and then later in the conversation people can see that on the board and they come back to that. And because that was like a core skill there, they really helped people develop with how to capture ideas in real-time on a board. And even down to really basic things like how to properly hold a whiteboard pen so that you don't end up with like a thin line and then a thick line when you didn't mean to, and the color is even as you go, and what size letters should you be so that people all around the room can always read it wherever they are. How do you keep your handwriting straight so that it doesn't end up looking like a mess? And we'd often like, take pictures of these at the end and present them and use them as a record of the discussion that we had. And they were really valuable, I think artifacts, it was from the design process, but really for a purpose. And I think the other thing I think that Jump Associate was really interesting with was, it wasn't just physical things, but a lot of it was like frameworks or models. You are like visualizing abstract things as well. So like, yeah, the three challenges in this. And then you try and visualize three challenges. You know, it is sort of an abstract way of thinking of things, or like business two by twos and things like that. So I kept those skills going since Jump Associates. I worked in user experience in design at my first startup, and I was always like sketching user interfaces and like what it be, you know, user journeys, mapping out, and how people are going through your product, that kind of thing. And then back in 2012, I got a Christmas present from my sister, which was a -- they still sell it, it's a lovely book. It's a sketch-a-day journal. A little green book about that size. If you open it up, there's two spaces for two sketches on each side of the page. So that's four days' worth, and it's literally just draw something a day. And so, I did that, and it was really lovely 'cause, you know, I'd always enjoy drawing, remember being on holidays as a kid and taking a little sketchbook postcards and stuff like that, and sitting outside in the evening and drawing them. But I didn't find I was doing that art as much during the day anymore. And so, it was really nice just to draw something every day. And I found when I got to the end of that, I was like, "Ah, kind of miss, it seems a bit of a waste to not be drawing anymore." And then I was like, "Okay, well it would be nice also if it helped me in some way." And so, I had this idea, well, I'll try and explain something because that's what I'm trying to do all day, is like, communicate an idea, communicate a concept. So, I'll explain something every day in a sketch. And I did that for a year, one a day. Halfway through I started posting some, 'cause they look quite nice. And I had little Moleskine what are they called? There was storyboard. MR: Storyboard, yeah. I was guessing that that was what that you're using. JH: Yeah. And then they really, they're really lovely. And so it was, it's a very similar format. You know, they're small sketchbooks, you open 'em up, there's four frames every now and then there's a one with three frames on one page. And just using that as like, these are my guides. I had to stay within that and, and do something. And so I did that. And so, I started posting them and somebody said at one point, "Hey, you should put these online somewhere." And so, I started a little Tumblr page and started putting some on, on Twitter and, and people liked them. And so, I definitely found that I couldn't easily sustain one a day. But when I finished that, I went to one a week -- actually, it went to two a week first. And I found that just didn't work at all because when there's two a week, you can always pick tomorrow to do one as opposed to today. But when there's one a week, you gotta make it happen. And now I've been doing that for 10 years. Maybe I've learned something. MR: Wow. Sounds to me like a book opportunity to me, where you could gather, if not all, maybe the best of those sketchplanations and bound those into some kind of a book that people would buy. I would buy that book. I don't know about anybody else, but I think it would be quite nice. JH: Thank you. Well, you know what? I am actually working on it at the moment. MR: Oh, good. I'm glad to hear that. JH: Yeah. After a long time, a publisher got in touch with me, somebody who've been following the newsletter and with a similar idea. And I've been, yeah, a few days a week over the last year trying to assemble everything together and I've been redoing things and checking things and it's coming together hopefully for next April, is the idea. MR: Oh, great. That would be great. You have to let us know so we can share it with the Sketchnote Army community, so we can definitely get some pre-orders and purchases going for you. JH: Definitely do that. Thank you. MR: I know in the publishing business these days, pre-orders are a huge deal. Often publishers give away special tidbits to get you to pre-order. It looks very good on the sales charts. So if we can help in that way, I think the people here would be really your ideal customer for buying that for themselves and others. JH: Well, I'll definitely take your tips on this. This would be book number one for me. So yeah, all your advice is welcome, and all your help. That'd be brilliant. Thank you. MR: Yeah. You're so welcome. Well, this is pretty fascinating. It's interesting, our paths in some ways are parallel. Not exactly, but I was never the best artist either. I just was more practical in the work that I did. So I sort of took what art skill I had and sort of applied it to practical things. And so, that just kind of led me on my path. I'm also a user experience designer as well. And I had a period of time for about three years where we did very similar things to what you talked about with the whiteboard with developers. So we would queue up software features that needed to be added to our software we were building. And we would sit down on Mondays and queue it up, look at what existed in the old software, do we like it? How could we improve it? Okay, let's have a discussion, and I would go to the board and document most of it. Occasionally, a developer would ask to come up and draw, which always was my highlight of my day. And they would draw concepts, we would annotate it, take a photo, throw it on a SharePoint space, and sometimes the developers would just take the sketches we did and build right off of that. And other times I'd do mockups to kind of move things forward. So, when you talked about that, I remembered how enjoyable that was for everybody. Really, everybody in that group. Developers, product owners, business analysts, all seemed to really enjoy it because as you say, there were these great ideas floating around in the ether if no one was attending to that to try and -- I had this idea of like, someone catching butterflies with a net. Like if you didn't catch those butterflies and pin them, you know, to the wall they would be lost because, you know, that person themselves maybe didn't even realize how valuable that idea was. You really needed someone to spot it and then capture it. So I think that's a really valuable way to work. **JH:**Yeah. It's interesting that I have two real contrasting experiences there. Which one was this engineering world. And if you think of like, oh, you know, you want to see how fast this is gonna go when it knocks into that, it's like you draw the diagram, it's all established what the principles are. You don't just explain it with words, you draw it out exactly as it's gonna happen, right? And then I did some classes in the education department at UC Berkeley, and we were talking about all sorts of really fascinating and difficult topics like reliability and validity and some concepts from sociology and things like that. And we'd sit in these rooms and do the reading beforehand, come in, and then you talk for an hour and lots of interesting points will come up, and everybody would just sort of absorb it, I guess, and scribble the odd word down and then walk off. And I remember thinking as I left those classes, there was some really good stuff there, but I think everybody's gonna come out with a different view of it, and people are gonna forget some parts and remember others. And it's just a shame you can't get some middle ground a bit where you can talk about them things which are a bit more abstract, but actually help give them shape, give them a form that we can all be sure we're talking about the same thing. And that happens in product development so often. You talked about software where we all talk about an idea and we all assume that we've got the same idea, but in fact, we don't. And part of what drawing it on the board is, and even just sometimes it's words, right? Trying to put it concretely into words is realizing, "Oh, when you said that, I was thinking of something different." And it just puts this sort of shared space where you can all look at it and go, "Oh, yeah, now we're all on the same page here. And it was fascinating these discussions in the educator's department, but I'm sure we came across -- we left it with all sorts of different ideas, you know, afterwards. MR: I used to call that -- I don't know if I got this term from somewhere or what, but I called it the illusion of agreement. So we all thought we agreed, but we all had different ideas in our heads. And if you didn't do something to sort of establish. Often, I would joke around with people like, okay, what we're doing here is we're just, I'm putting things on the board so we have something to argue about, right? To disagree about. Because if you start with something to disagree about, it least you have some starting point, and then you can work toward agreement from there. So, you know, often it wasn't necessarily disagreement, but it was not uncommon for one person to talk about something and I would draw it on the board and they'd say, "No, no, that's not exactly what I was thinking." And then I'd hand the marker to them and they would come up and draw it and make it clear from their perspective. And it sort of gave some solidity or some physicality or something to that idea. But then we could say, "Oh, okay, now I see what you're saying, and now let's have the discussion around that." We would build on it. And, you know, often that would be the solution that would work for us. So that was quite enjoyable. JH: Yeah. The illusion of agreement is a great term. My thesis in the end was about reframing in the design process and how you settle as a design team on the framing of the design problem. And a lot of -- well, you wrote a paper about the how does teams establish a shared frame of things. And some of it is like when you put something out there, the conflicts and the differences become salient, whereas they weren't before. And exactly that you all leave the meeting thinking that, "Great, we all know what to do", and you all think you've all actually got different ideas in mind about what that is. And when you come back later and you've built the wrong thing, everybody's like, "No, no, that's not what I meant." And so how do you head that off as early as possible? And some of it's making it concrete, and that's what the visuals are useful for. MR: Yeah. Maybe the biggest risk in that illusion of agreement walking away is you actually build five new things. Well, then which of the five will we choose, right? Or is there overlap enough that they could be merged into one thing so that we're not spending energy in five directions, we redirect toward one direction, and kind of come to an agreement together? JH: Yeah. Love that. And the sort of thing I still come across in my day job on a regular basis. MR: Something else that struck me, and this is just something that struck me and relates to my education, is it sounded like Berkeley did lots of cross-training. So there was lots of overlap of departments, or at least for you as a student, you were kind of stepping into a variety of what would seem like unrelated spaces, but yet they are very related. In my education and history, I went to a technical school and they were really, really adamant at that time about this cross-training. So if you were a designer, and this is like old school print designer, that's when I went to school, you were required to take photography classes because in those days you would work with photographers all the time to, you know, describe to them what you're looking for as a designer, and they would inform you. So you had to understand like, what are the materials that they work with so you could really understand it. And also, printers. And I found myself working in the printing room and because I was so practical, I would often become almost like a teaching assistant down there because I had some history taking printing classes prior. So I would be in the design classes, sort of being the assistant to the teacher who often wasn't in the darkroom showing how to shoot films or whatever the thing was we were doing. And so, I became sort of this teacher, but I always loved the cross-training 'cause I felt like I understood more of the holistic job that we were all doing together, even though my part was just one piece of it gave me a better appreciation of those and how they fit together. And it sounds like maybe you're doing something like that at Berkeley. JH: Yeah. One of the things it is interesting is a difference I think in general between like doing a doctorate in the UK versus often I think in the U.S. Whereas in the UK typically, you might find a research advisor who's got a project idea and you are interested in it too, and it's all sort of settled and you go off and you do that research, it takes three years and then you present it. In Berkeley, which I really appreciated, it wasn't expected that you come in knowing what it is exactly you wanna do. You're like, "I had an idea of what I was interested in." But essentially you spent the first two years taking classes to basically get you to be, I'd say like getting on for a world expert in each of these areas, really build your knowledge. But that, I guess, gave you a huge amount of flexibility. And so, yeah, it was brilliant to be able to take classes in the language school. And I remember doing ones on game design and I took some in the information school and the education department and just that sort of breadth of knowledge and you never know which ideas are gonna be the ones coming in to be useful. And I definitely really appreciated that. Whereas if I, you know, a traditional way, I was like, "Oh, I was in design engineering, I stay in the engineering school." That's where I do all my classes. But actually, I think it broadened my outlook and probably improved the end product is great deal by being able to do all that. And hopefully, one of the things I think is interesting about sketchplanations is it's, I think, you know, none of us, just because you work in one area doesn't mean that's the only thing you're good at or the only thing you're interested in. And so, it's nice to be able to go, you know, well here's the thing on wellbeing or healthcare, and then here's the thing about design and here's the thing about, you know, a business tool. And any of us can appreciate all of those. So yeah, I love the idea of being able to take ideas from lots of different places. It was definitely valuable to me. MR: Well, we have lots of educators who I think listen to the podcast, so at the very least this can be an encouragement to teachers, teachers, if you're listening that doing cross-training with your students is really valuable, even if the students don't realize it in the moment. You know, I certainly had plenty of colleagues in my university, in my technical school who grumbled that they had to go do photography class or had to do drawing. You know, "I'm a printer, why do I need to do these things?" But ultimately, it gave them a better-rounded experience. So if you're an educator, if you can find ways to sneak in cross-training, Jono and I are big fans of the idea. JH: Hundred percent. MR: Well, you sort of led us to what you're doing these days. What are you currently up to now? Are you working on software? Are you working on hardware? And how does you know, your visualization skills sort of fit into the work you're doing today? JH: Yeah, I mean, I split my time at the moment. So a few days a week, I'm working, say right now on pulling together a book for sketchplanations and still continuing that. In the day-to-day, I lead product development team and -- well, four product development teams. The company I'm working at is called Zen Educate. And we built a platform that connects schools with substitute teachers. So, oh, you can think about a bit like an Uber or an Airbnb, but for teachers to find work at schools and vice versa. It is just such a really nice area where you're bringing in different skill sets and you're forced to do that. So you have to have people who know about education, and then you have to have software developers and you have a product manager and you have a designer, and you try and bring all of that expertise together to create something that is gonna provide value for teachers and for schools. I do less of this specific day-to-day design and things than I used to. But you know, both the companies I've worked on the last 10 years started when they were very small. And I really like that phase 'cause just have to do everything otherwise nothing happens. But it's really nice. So, you know, you're going out and doing research interviews, but you're also sketching interfaces, you're testing things as before they're delivered, you're writing product releases, you're communicating with, you know, stakeholders internally or the board members, you know, and all sorts of things. And so, yeah, my job is a mix of all of that at the moment. I think we provide a great service for schools and we actually save. It's more efficient so we save schools money and we can pay teachers more. And we started in the UK, but we've since launched in the U.S. which is really exciting. So yeah, lots to keep me busy on that front too. MR: That's pretty cool having those two clients, right? You know, schools needing on-demand teachers and then teachers being out there on a bench looking for an opportunity that you're just sort of putting those two things together in a great way. That's pretty cool. JH: Yeah. And just as an example about where I think of visualization helping in that kind of thing, there's some really -- so it's a marketplace. You've got two sides of a marketplace and you have to balance supply and demand. And, you know, in some ways that's very concrete because you take a specific job that's available, let's say, and a teacher who wants to do it, and you wanna have to connect them properly. But there's also, just how do you think about a marketplace and making this successful? And so, there's a nice concept called the Amazon flywheel, and there's another one called, I think it was Uber's virtuous cycle. I did sketches of both of those. And they just help you sort of -- you'll see like it is a little cycle like, you know, the more teachers you have on the marketplace, the better the matches are with the jobs, let's say, so the better the experience for schools, which means they put more of jobs available, which means that tracks more teachers. And so, you end up with like a flywheel. And so, the same is true for Amazon's marketplace. The same is true for the density of drivers on Uber or journeys that you can do. And I just think like, it's interesting how it's easy, it's fine to talk about that, but it's so different when you put like a visualization or something like that, people just get it. You're like, "Oh, yeah, I see how it works." Whereas day to day there's like million little bits of data points, but trying to communicate abstract ways of thinking about these things, is sometimes super valuable. And so, I still like it at that sort of level. MR: Yeah. And I imagine some people, like a developer, let's say, they're looking at this one little piece, like, I need to deliver this feature, or, but there is this whole flywheel or thing happening and they could see their position within it and why it's important what they're doing, right? So it gives meaning in a lot of ways. Where if you just were heads down, pounding away on this feature, it wouldn't maybe have the same meaning to you, right? Like, "Hey, I'm part of this flywheel, or our goal is to really get this moving forward and let it have its own momentum." JH: Yeah. Everybody's a connection to what's the point of what you're doing? There's dude, you should come across Dan Pink has really nice framework autonomy, mastery, purpose about motivation. And so, I did a sketch of that and I think the purpose side of it is just so like, why am I doing what I'm doing? It's not exciting for me to be just creating this button, but if this button's gonna do this and that's gonna enable this bigger picture thing, then yeah, keeps you getting up every day. MR: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, this has been really, really interesting and fascinating. We'll have to look around a little bit and if you've got those particular concepts and sketchplanations, maybe we can have some direct links to those so those who are listening or watching can pop 'em up on the screen and take a peek. So we'll work on that for the show notes later. Let's shift now to your tools. I'm always really fascinated by the tools people use. Sometimes they're pretty common and sometimes I'm surprised. Let's start with analog first. It seems like you do do analog drawing, or at least you used to when I first encountered you. Have you made a shift to digital, or you still feel really good about the pen-on-paper feel, and what pens and paper do you like? JH: Yeah, I'm always a bit conflicted because, you know, this digital just has these massive advantages. But it still, there's nothing that quite is come close to the feeling of just writing in a notebook. So anyway, I do have it alongside me here. So I have this kind of daily notebook that I'll always take, and so that's got like my, you know, mixes of to-do lists or here's a UI idea or yeah, here's me sketching out this framework, or here's a mind map for content for this talk. For the analog stuff, so I still do carry around a physical notebook, but my preference are dotted notebooks. MR: Yes. Yeah. JH: Yeah, I say I was always interested in credit problem-solving. I just think dotted just solves the problem. Like it basically looks like it's a blank page, which is lovely, but it allows you to structure data and actually like, do things in straight lines. And it helps guide your drawings without getting in the way of the content. It was, Edward Tufte has this idea of a ghost grid, so there's a grid behind the whole thing which doesn't get in the way, you don't really notice at the end. So anyway, I really like the dotted notebooks. This one is a leach term. I never know how to pronounce it. MR: Yeah, German company, group they call it. JH: Good quality journal. But probably most of my ones I've had are the Moleskine. They're about, I don't know, bit bigger than A5. The large ones with a sort of flexible leather cover, and they do some really nice dotted ones as well. I've tried plain, and plain looks lovely if you're just drawing, but if you're also making lists or structuring stuff and you want things to be in straight lines, the dotted is just so much better. Usually, I like ones with bright colors, that one's black, but you know. MR: Yeah. I've got my bright-colored LEUCHTTURM is here as well. JH: Yeah, absolutely. MR: And I think LEUCHTTURM has done a really great job of finding that right gray level. So as an old printer, I know how tricky it is. They must use some kind of a special color, but it's just dark enough that you see it, but light enough that it fades in the background. Some dotted notebooks don't do as good a job of this, and the dots are too dark and you know, they become noise. And so, you know, you don't appreciate it until you come across a notebook where they don't pay attention to those details and it just constantly gets in your way. So I think LEUCHTTURM has done a good job with that. JH: Yeah. If people are giving out free notebooks, normally they're lined ones, I just can't get on with the lined ones. MR: Yeah. It's not for me either. Not unless I'm writing a journal, but even in a journal I would just use dotted as well because it's got just enough structure. What about pens? It sounds like using Moleskine and LEUCHTTURM primarily. JH: Yeah. For pens, I'm heavily influenced by what we had at Jump Associates, which I just think works beautifully. I actually can't find them very easily now. But there are some Uniball Vision Elite pens which is my preferred just everyday pens and they do nice sets of colors now, but I honestly just quite like the blacks and the blues. That's just something about they have just like the right they beautiful clean lines and they're dark and they're bold and they're smooth to write with, and they don't bleed through too much. Yeah, you get the right-thickness ones, but yeah Uniball Vision Elites are the ones I like. And then I always used to carry -- I sort of have -- I usually have two pens in my pocket, in any one time. But a black and then a highlight color, like a green or a red, and then I would have a Copic marker with me. I was used to carry around like usually a gray or sort of beige Copic marker, just to allow you to give a little background, a little shape to things. And I just think that just made a huge difference. I think when I was doing a lot of paper stuff, I'd have also have like a bright color Copic marker as well for highlighting stuff, but not so much anymore. But I mean they've strongly influenced because I started analog, all the sketchplanations, they're basically, I keep to a simple color palette and often a bit of just gray in the background and that's, that's the influence of those pens. MR: Yeah. And I can just imagine, I'm not looking at one of your sketchplanations, but all those things you just said, you know, black with a highlight color and a shadow is sort of like, you know, the recipe for a sketchplanation, and a square, right? Sort of those basic elements, I guess. JH: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't know if a square necessarily, I'm looking around 'cause I have a bunch on my wall. MR: I see some behind you now. Yeah. JH: Yeah, yeah. I have a few of my favorite ones. But there is something about just like I think back to the storyboard notebooks, which I do really still really like, they just give you this frame to work in and sometimes the constraint is just really helpful. You like, okay, it's gotta work in here. MR: And what about digital? Are you using some kind of digital tool? You sound like you were conflicted when you first began, so I suspect that's true. JH: Yeah, I did. So I don't know when it was like five or six years ago, I moved to an iPad Pro when the iPad Pro and the pencil first came out. I think I still have the sort of initial large iPad Pro, the sort of a three size -- A3, A4 size one. **MR: ** The big one. Yeah. JH: Yeah. Which I really -- I mean, they're probably much better now, but it still works. It still works really nicely and I think the pencil's still pretty good. MR: Yeah. JH: Yeah, all of the sketchplanations I do now with that, but I know if I'm still just doing it, if I'm sketching a user interface quickly or something, I'll do that in my notebook and take a quick photo and sending Slack or something. And then you said that most people use Procreate. I have Procreate installed. I don't use Procreate. MR: Interesting. JH: Yeah. I use something called SketchBook Pro, if you've come across that. MR: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, of course. JH: It's Autodesk one, but you know, the free versions really good and they added a little thing that you can pay for that allows you to do a few extra bits, which is just super useful. I usually think like, you know, that phrase that "The best camera is the one you have with you." MR: Yeah. JH: It's kind of like, it doesn't really matter. Like what's more important is that you're able to write stuff down or make a note when you're inspired and that you just get to know your tools. MR: Yes. JH: Like, I'm sure I could get really good at Procreate, but I've kind of got the SketchBook Pro does what I want now, and so, you know, maybe one day I'll try something different, but it does what I want. And that's more important, is knowing your tools, I think than which tool you are using. MR: Yeah, I agree. It's simple and effective and, you know, your fluid, so you know, if you want get yourself out of the way if you're fiddling with tools, that's not a good thing when you're trying to get a concept out because like you say that whatever's floating around in your head and the ether could get lost just as well, right, so you wanna move quick and catch it before it disappears, so. JH: Yeah. Exactly. MR: Autodesk's app is a classic. It's been around, I think since the beginning of the iPad. I think they ported it pretty early, so it's been around for quite a long time. And I've run into a few other people that use it. I use Paper by WeTransfer in that way. I just know the tool really deeply and if I need to get a concept out, I just pop it up and it's there and I go with it. So in a similar way, but I do use Procreate for illustration work. If I know that my work will be scaled or I need modifications, Concepts is great for that 'cause it's vector-based, so gives me that additional level of control. So it really, I've been starting to try and be more specific around what is the task that I want to do, and then I choose the tool to fit it, but Paper is sort of my default. If I don't have to choose, I'll go there first. And then if I have a specific need, I go to these other tools. And like you, I have to force myself because I would just be comfortable using this one tool. But, you know, illustrations have to be a certain resolution. Paper it's not set up that way. It's not that kind of a tool. So I needed to move into Procreate and it's been a great tool for that. And same thing with Concepts, when those illustrations need to be scalable it's been a great tool for that. So I feel fortunate. But it's hard, like when you invest a lot of time in a tool, you know, it's an intentional move to do spend time on another tool because you have to learn all that new stuff and you almost need like a project. You can't just do it fiddling around because there's not enough motivation. You really need a project, I think, to make you motivated to see results. So that's really interesting. JH: Yeah. I think because sketchplanations is weekly, I never feel like I quite have enough time in a week to transition to something new. So I've never made the switch to try out new things. I was just like, "Right. Well, let's keep going with this one because I know it's gonna work right now." MR: So that seems like a good fit for that purpose then. JH: Yeah. I doubt, I mean, you know, any of these tools you see, people can draw beautiful, unbelievable things in all of them. So, you know, if they can do that, surely, surely this one's good enough for me, so. MR: Yeah. I'm kind of curious, do you ever -- I'm assuming you must have a huge backlog of potential topics that you could draw, or do you struggle every week like, "Oh man, what am I gonna draw? It's Thursday, I better hurry up and pick a topic." And, "Okay. Got it done, Friday, whew. Okay. I hope I have something next week." Does it tend to be one side or the other, or do you have like a huge stack of like, logs waiting for you to pick and burn the fire? JH: Yeah. Have you ever read the book, I think there was one about Bill Watterson and Calvin and Hobbs and how he drew Calvin and Hobbs. MR: I haven't read that one. That would be fun. JH: I forget exactly what it's called, but there's one, it was an extended interview with him about his process from the museum where they have his work. And I think I do it a little bit like he did it which is what he often would do is like, come up with a number of ideas for strips, sometimes draw 'em out just really roughly. And then sometimes he would go through and ink them, and then later on he would come through and color them, let's say, and say at any one point, he might have three or five of them on the go and like do a day where he's like inking a day when he's coloring them all. And so, I'm a little bit more like that so I have ones in various stages of being done. So I do, I do have a giant backlog of like, "Oh, that would be a cool sketch one day I should do that." That keeps coming up. But I also have lots of draft sketches where I've started something or I'm like, oh, actually, you know, one day I put down three ideas or three different sketches and how I might do it. And then one week I might come across and do two of those and then post one of them, you know, that kind of thing. So I always have this multi-stream approach. And also, I think for me, sometimes I guess it's kind of like this with any art, like you get to the end and it looks totally straightforward, but often I had to get through a lot of thinking in order to get there. And so, sometimes just like putting an -- even if I pick, I'm gonna do this one this week, and I put that down the Friday before, and my brain can be turning that over through the days, over the next week. And so, I've actually by Wednesday, I've come up with a great example for it, and then I'll draw it on Thursday, you know, that kind of thing. So yeah, that's kind of my process. But I do have a giant list and people send me great ideas all the time. So, the ideas come in faster than I can draw in for sure. MR: If you think about it in the plant term, it's like you've got a big bucket of seeds and then you're planting these plants and you're watering them through, you know, constantly. And then when it seems like that one's ready, you pull it forward and finish it up and push it out and another seed comes and gets planted and you keep on watering. And it's sort of like the gardener of sketchplanations. JH: That's a nice metaphor. Yeah, I like it. That's exactly how I meant to describe it. MR: There you go. You can have that for free, Jono. JH: Thank you. MR: So Jono, tell us some tips you have for us. I like to frame it as someone's listening, they're a visual thinker of some kind, but they maybe feel like they're on hit a plateau. And I like to ask guests to give them encouragement. What would be three tips that you would tell someone like that to encourage them? Could be anything, can be mental tips, it can be practical tips, bring an extra pencil, something like that. So I'll leave it to you, but just three tips would be great. JH: Yeah, so I gave a little bit of thought to this, and I came up with some of which I think are maybe disarmingly simple, perhaps. So the first one is, I have a concept -- I actually have a mouse mat of it right here, which is, the first draft is always perfect. And I really like this framing because it basically says, your first draft is probably gonna be rubbish, but that's okay 'cause that's the job of the first draft, and that's what makes it perfect. And so, I guess my experience is there was when I'm stuck, or I'm not sure what to do, I just have to make myself do anything. And actually, I find just doing something is enough to like unblock it. And getting away from this idea that whatever you're gonna do is gonna be great, is just very liberating. And so, this idea of the first draft is always perfect, is a nice way to come to me. I have another sketch, actually, it's up on my wall, which is called the Doorstep Mile, which is this really nice Scandinavian concept, I think, which is like, getting started can be the hardest part, which is like stepping out of your door. Like it's easy to go for a run once you've got your trainers on and you're outta your door. So you just have to get started. So first draft is always perfect. I strongly believe like this idea that great ideas come during the hard work and not before it. So like, you don't have to have your great idea and then start work. Usually, all the best ideas I've had of while I'm doing the work. So get started. The second tip I would have is to keep it simple. And the reason I say that is because I think it's easy to have really high expectations about, you know, what things are gonna turn out like, but actually in many ways, simple stuff is just as helpful as complex stuff. And sometimes it's even more useful. I'm reminded of some diagrams which have been super helpful at work and in discussions where people literally just boxes and lines with texting. Like anybody can do boxes and lines. Sometimes I find just laying out words, like, if there's a process, I like lay out the words in an order, and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, this one becomes for that one." And I find that is valuable and clarifying to me. And it doesn't have to be like a complex visual in any ways. And I think the other aspect to keep it simple, I think definitely for me it was, it's easy to get thrown by drawing people. And you'll see obviously, like in sketchplanations, my people are super, super simple, just a little bit more than a stick man. But there are lots of ways actually to draw really simple people, which just allow you to put a person in there but not get hung up on the drawing of the person. And, you know, like drawing a star, it kind of looks like a person. You can do somebody jumping and that's fine, and that gets the idea across, and it doesn't have to be perfect. So keeping it simple is my second tip. And my third tip is, keep going. My experience again is that I've done so many drawings where about halfway through they looked pretty rubbish. And I think often, you know, people ask me about, "Oh yeah, how can I learn to draw?" And I very much believe it's easy to start drawing something and it looked rubbish and then just stop and then assume that you couldn't do it or you weren't getting there. And so often, I mean, partly the nice thing about sketchplanations is it's like clockwork. It's gonna make me do it, so I just keep going. And there's very often times where halfway through it felt like it wasn't working, the drawing wasn't right. You know, like if you saw all the sketches along the way, sometimes, you know, they're awful, but you keep going at it and you refine this bit and you change this bit and you switch the direction, and then after a while, you get to a point where it looks really good. And it's so easy to assume that people just come across and do the good thing straight away, but. So my tip is just even when you look at it is to keep going. In my research, there was a guy called Donald Shan who's an architect, and he did a lot of research about how do you teach and learn architecture. He talked about drawing as a reflexive conversation with the situation, which takes a while to get your head around, but the idea is that you put a line on the page and then you see that line and that line informs your next line. And so, there's this constant like back and forth and like, "Oh, I put this down and it doesn't quite fit so I moved it over there and I erased this bit and I moved it over there." And you're doing these hundreds of iterations just while you're just still working on it. But you don't get that if you just stop on your first bit when it didn't come out like you want to. So those are my, my three ideas. So yeah, first draft is always perfect. Keep it really simple. You keep going. MR: Those are three great tips. And I wholeheartedly believe in each one, and was imagining moments in my experience where I felt the same way. Especially number two, like getting partway into something and thinking, "Oh, this is not going the way I want." I'll just say, well, I'll just keep going a little bit more. Let's tweak that a little bit. And a lot of times I found that the thing that I thought was going nowhere was a problem halfway through. By the time I get done with it, it's like one of my favorite things because, you know, there was really potential there that I had to unearth that potential to keep working it, working it, working it, until it developed into the thing, like you kind of fell in love with it, which is kind of a fun experience. So definitely believe in that. JH: I always love the making of things, and like I went to see, it was a random gallery in Washington State where they had a Dr. Zeus exhibition and it had like his sketches before the final books. And it's just always fascinating seeing people's process and realizing it's probably just as messy and confused as yours is. And it's quite liberating. Whenever we watch films, I'm always more interested in the making of the film than the film itself, not -- you know, I love that stuff. MR: Yeah. If you happen to be a "Star Wars" fan and watch "Mandalorian," there was really great series. In addition to the show where it talks about how they made it and some of the crazy stuff they went through to achieve these, what at the outset seemed like impossible, "How are we going to do that?" They had some crazy idea and they, through process and everybody being creative, they were able to solve it. And you get to see how they achieved it. And when you watch the episode, you know, you wouldn't even think of all the hoops that they're jumping through to make that happen, but yet they pulled it off. So, yeah, in the same way, I love that. JH: Absolutely. I love it. MR: Yeah. Well, thanks so much for those tips, Jono. Well, this has been really enjoyable chatting with you and getting inside of the way you think and your process, and so forth. Tell us, if someone's listening, how do they find sketch explanations? How do they find you? What's the best place to find you? JH: Yeah, I mean, it's always a bit of a curse. Sketchplanations is not the easiest word to say or spell, but it does make sense when you think of that sketch explanation. So yeah, I mean, sketchplanations.com, I think I have, you know, pretty much monopoly on if you type that into any search engine, and it should probably correct and point you in the right direction. If you're struggling with that, you can always put in Joho Hey, and that'll help get you there pretty quick. That's H-E-Y. And then we also started a podcast this year, which was quite fun. MR: Oh, great. JH: Yeah. Interesting. Like different angles, obviously, it's all visual, so in some ways, it's mad to do a podcast about something that's visual, but -- MR: Well, that's what you're on now is the podcast about sketchnoting. JH: Yeah, exactly. But actually, it's been a lot of fun. You like taking a topic and like I say, going a bit deeper into than I can, just in a little quick sketch. And chatting about that, that's been fun. So that's sketchplanations.com/podcast. MR: Great. JH: But everything's pretty much there on the sketchplanation site. MR: Can find you there. Great. Well, we'll definitely link it up. And in the meantime, between us recording now and this is getting published we'll see if we can get links to the things you've mentioned, the visuals that you mentioned in our discussion, and we'll link those up too, so that way if someone's listening and they wanna see what the Amazon flywheel or whatever, I think I've mixed that up, but yeah, the concept, they can pick it up to have peek, which would be great. JH: Perfect. MR: Well, thanks Jono. I'm really impressed with your reliability and your ability to continue going after 10 years. Some people would very easily be bored or would drive them mad, and it seems like you just keep on leaning into it and enjoying it. That's really an encouraging thing to see, and I appreciate it. I think it's a great thing for the world, and I speak for all the other fans of your work. Thank you for the work you're doing. It's really valuable. JH: Thank you, Mike. Yeah, I mean, I always consider it -- honestly, it's like the attention economy, right? People look at lots of places they can spend their attention, and it's a privilege to have a place where you can send something out and people will pay attention to it. So that's one of the things that keeps me going is that take that opportunity seriously. And, you know, I also think a bit like you -- with this podcast, it's helped me out a huge deal as well. Like, it's not completely like selfless. I'm not just doing this for everybody else. Like I've got better a whole host of things as a result of doing this project. The people I really had to thank is my wife and family for allowing me to go off on Saturdays from time to time and finish some sketches when I should be helping out around the house or, you know, having fun, but there you go. Yeah. MR: There you go. Well, thanks so much, Jono. It's been a pleasure. And for those who are listening or watching, this is another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Until the next episode, talk to you soon. JH: Thanks, Mike.

In this episode, Ingrid describes the evolution of her visual thinking journey which now plays a crucial role in assisting both creative professionals and business owners in understanding their client's experiences through Big Picture storyboarding. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Ingrid Lill Origin Story Ingrid Lill's current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Ingrid Lill Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Mike Rohde’s Big Idea Sketchiest with Ingrid Donald Miller's book - Building a StoryBrand Tim Urban's book - Wait But Why? Website Membership site LinkedIn Youtube Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Concepts iPad Pro Adobe Illustrator Wacom Cintiq Procreate Neuland flexible tip marker Neuland art markers Black fineliner pen Ink tins Pencils Waterbrush Watercolor A3 Smooth paper Tips Message first. Use your drawing to communicate. Keep it simple. Experiment. Use your art on your everyday use. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike, and I'm here with Ingrid Lill. Ingrid, it's so good to have you on the show. Thanks for coming. Ingrid Lill: Thank you, Mike for having me. You're one of my heroes, one of the first ones who taught me how to sketch note. MR: Oh, thank you. That's so nice of you. Well, you know, probably we'll get into it a little bit is some of the work that we did together, but I think before we get into that discussion, I would love for you to sort of set the context. Who are you and what do you do with the work that you do? IL: My name is Ingrid Lill. I'm originally from Germany. I've been living in Denmark for 20 years on the countryside. And I—should I tell my whole story already now? MR: Sure. That was my next question is how did you end up in the place where you are? Maybe start— IL: Maybe first, what I'm doing now. MR: Yeah. IL: I am a communication designer turn business coach with a pencil. I am helping coaches, consultants, and creatives, and whoever needs to do that, clarify their message through visual thinking, and I do that on several levels. MR: Cool. IL: Yeah. MR: And you've done that with me. So we can talk about that in the future. I would love to hear now, how did you end up in that place? You talked about being a communication designer. It sounds like from our discussions before, what you did wasn't so far away from what I did when I came out of university, which was graphic design. IL: That's true. MR: Yeah. IL: That's true, graphic design, yeah, yeah. MR: Really old-school graphic design with pens and— IL: Really old school. MR: —rulers and all that old stuff. IL: Yeah, yeah. I mean, as a child, I drew, and as many people who are drawing and want to also make money, I studied graphic design. And I had drawing and painting at the side as an artist and made graphic design and all this visual communication stuff to make money. When I started out on it, when I graduated, there were no computers, so we did actually hand-drawn layouts which was fun, but that disappeared when computers came on the scene. And then for many years, all the drawing was really only hobby and computer was it. And I was also happy for it because I didn't really like the manual graphic design work. Yeah, and then I worked as a graphic designer and an art director, and several jobs in this thing. Also, on my own, had my own business. And at some point, I got tired of it. I was tired of having this divide between the really creative me on one side and the job, the making money on the other side. So I wanted to bring it together. And when I heard about, or when I saw the first graphic facilitation things on the internet, I thought, "Huh, what is that?" It was like a revelation. And I started investigating, and it was a totally new way of drawing for me. Before, drawing was art, and then I found out drawing can be communication. I've never done my own illustrations when I was working as a graphic designer because I thought I'm not good enough for it or something, whatever I thought. But this kind of drawing, which was so simple that I thought, I can do that. And so, I learned that. And I also knew if I wanted to get out and make a business, build a business that is more me and more fun and more creative, I needed to draw, I needed to dare to be visible with it. And I started posting drawings on Facebook. And I remember the first time I posted something, a drawing I did was in some thread a discussion on Facebook. And I did a little drawing and I uploaded it, and my heart was pounding, and I thought, "Huh." I don't why. MR: What did I do? IL: What did I do? Yeah, yeah. But nobody even noticed. It was just, I had a point to make and I did a drawing that illustrated that point. It was not about that the drawing had to be beautiful. And that was kind of the—how do you say that? I crossed the boundary with that. Drawing is useful, can be useful, and it can also be fun and all other kinds of stuff, but it doesn't have to be. It just has to convey a message. And that's where all my— MR: Functional. IL: Yeah, functional, but also expressing your personality in a way it always does. And that's what all my work now is revolving around. I did also some graphic recording here, locally in Denmark. But what happened then was when I posted my drawings on Facebook, people liked them. I was actually telling my story about finding out what to do next. People liked it, and then I started giving drawing classes, and my business evolved in other directions. MR: Something interesting I thought of when you were talking about, you saw a graphic record or you saw a facilitation, and up to that point you thought, "Well, I never used illustration in my graphic design work 'cause I didn't think I was good enough." I thought the same thing. I always thought of myself as a graphic designer. And for people that don't understand that about that time, if I'm thinking it's about the right time, that was like the golden age, the peak of illustration where people could make a living doing illustration work. Like many people. If you were a good enough artist, you could make a living. And it was really great quality stuff. So when we say that, when Ingrid and I say that we weren't good enough, it's because we were up against the best illustrators in the entire world were at their peak, and we really weren't good enough to compete at that in that game, in the game that they were playing, which was, you know, stuff that people are using like AI to do now, or mid-journey or something like— IL: Airbrush stuff. Oh God. MR: Right, right. So there was very, very specific skills, and because there wasn't really computer capability, it was all analog stuff, which is really hard to do, and therefore it costs a lot and only the best organizations could afford to do that. So there was like this whole—when you say, "Oh, I just wasn't good enough." And you think, well, you know, in that context, there really was amazing work being done, and we really weren't good enough to play that game. So what we realized, I think you and I was, well, what if we play a different game? What if we play a game where we just do our simple drawing to communicate and it's functional? And that was the thing that blew Ingrid's mind. Am I right in kind of guessing at that? IL: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But also, what didn't occur to me back then was that I could make my own game. That I could make a business out of the drawings that I'm capable of doing. Maybe it would've been possible, probably but it didn't occur to me. I thought I needed to follow some mainstream something. And only when I became older and thought, now it's enough of trying to follow other people's ideas, now I'm making my own rules for myself. MR: Yeah. So now let's step into the work that you and I did, which is representative of the kind of work you're doing for your clients. So about, I dunno, it was about two months ago or something like that. We're talking in August, so it was about two months ago maybe. Ingrid reached out to me and invited me to do a session with her over Zoom where she would talk with me about what I wanted to do with whatever I wanted to. So I chose, well, I've got these two books and I'm trying to figure out like, what's the next thing? Where do I go next? So basically, Ingrid walked through with me and started going back into my history and asking me questions, and then visualizing this journey and starting to make sense of like what was in my head. So in a sense, she was sketchnoting my thinking, but it was more than this. It wasn't so much just recording what I said. She was also facilitating by guiding me and asking questions, probing questions, and then visualizing it and sort of making sense of it, in the moment so I could see it all unfolding on the screen as she worked. And then eventually, we finished that session, and then she kind of fixed up some things and added a little bit of color, and then there is a finished piece. Well, I'll put a link in the show notes for you so you could see what this looks like, including there's a recording of the session that you can watch that Ingrid has shared. So you can watch it happen and then see the final output. As a visual thinker to go through that experience is really fascinating because it's sort of dawned on me a little bit what other people often feel like when I do visualizations of what they're saying. I think I kind of do something kind of similar, maybe in a different venue in my user experience design work where I'm extracting their thinking and trying to make sense of it. But it's the same kind of activity. So talk to me like, when did you come to that specific expression of the work that you're doing? Is that a pretty recent thing? How long have you been doing that? IL: No, that's several years. It's not recent. It's evolving. And the thing that you have been on is my very new big idea sketch cast which is my idea or at the start of a YouTube channel that I'm trying, and I'm interviewing interesting people. So this was only a little thing. Normally when I do with people, it's much longer. MR: Yeah. IL: There were several things coming together. One was that I needed to build my business, so I wanted to build my business, and I had to learn how to do that. Before, as a graphic designer, I was only doing stuff that was coming to me anyway. I showed my portfolio and didn't really think so much about my message. And then when I wanted to have my business more as an expression of—or I wanted to direct it in a certain direction, which is more drawing, more me, more creative, I studied more marketing. And I read Donald Miller's "Building a StoryBrand." That had a big influence on me, and I thought, "This is it. He's right." I knew he is right, but still, I couldn't wrap my head around it for my own business. And then I heard—I don't know if it was—I think it was him who said, "If you can paint a picture of it, your message isn't clear enough." And that kind of flipped a switch, and I thought, "I can paint that picture. I need to draw it. I need to draw this process." And so, that was the inspiration for this. I call it brand storyboarding and I draw the customer's journey. So if you have a website—if you're my client, it's not about it's not about you, it's about your clients. I draw how your clients feel before and after they have worked with you, and you're the guide. And then I added, with time, my own spin on it and other stuff. Yeah, that's how this started. Then I tried it out with some people and it worked, and I refined it. MR: That's always good. IL: And then it happened that I found many, or some people don't know yet what they want to sell theoretically. In a StoryBrand, they already have a working product, but some people who come to me, don't know that yet. And then I do a superpower diagram, which is also visual, which is overlapping circles. So I have several things, but this brand storyboarding, which is the before, after, and the bridge in between, that's the core thing that I'm doing. MR: Interesting. That's a really fascinating way to look at it because I think people do relate to stories and they think of themselves in a story, but not as the hero, but as the guide, right? That's the story, I guess process where you think about "Star Wars," right? Luke is the focus, but Yoda, or you know, Obi-Wan Kenobi, they're the guides that help Luke achieve, you know, his goal, right? And you're sort of casting people who you work with in the Yoda/Obi-Wan Kenobi role as guides, because then, you know, your customers are the Luke Skywalkers in a sense, right? IL: Mm-hmm. Exactly. So it's a little bit meta and it really helps me to have a drawing of it, so I can always go back—I don't even know if I'm a visual thinker. It's very spatial for me, this process, that I know exactly what is happening where, and I can always go back to it. And when we figure out the messaging, then I can go back to the guy with a problem to the hero and say, "Does this guy, we really want to hear that in this situation here." And another interesting question is how did he end up in this problem? That's a philosophical problem. Whose fault is it? And what is wrong with society that this could happen? So that is helping to get deeper into the whole story. MR: Right. Kind of like a root cause. IL: Yeah. MR: Looking at the root cause. IL: Which is also a tip often a good headline for the website. MR: And so, you've been doing this for a while. How do your clients react? I know how I reacted. I enjoyed the process and it's now a map that I can use. I can pull it up, and I was telling you before we started that my thought is in the fall when I start thinking about what I'm gonna do next, but that's gonna be one of the maps that I bring up and sort of think about what does it tell me? So How do your other clients like it and how are they using it? IL: One said, "It's part therapy, part magic, and all clarity." That was very nice. MR: Yeah. IL: And how do they use it? Some put it on their website, but that's not the point of it. It's more about having the clarity. Then the people who come to me who are creative and who maybe also draw themselves, I always encourage them to do their own thing. I have a template, and so, they can use it and then should do their own drawings and their own illustrations. But yeah, some people put it on their websites or on their LinkedIn headers, so. MR: I would think a good place to put it would be on the wall. IL: Yeah, yeah. MR: That I was hanging on the wall right here, so I can look at it every day and remember like, what am I doing here? Like, what's my purpose? IL: I don't know if they're doing that. Maybe they say it, but then I don't see it. MR: Right. You can't verify. Yeah. IL: I see it if they have it in their LinkedIn header, but what is also happening, as a graphic element, and I'm now the graphic designer's talking, there's a lot of stuff on it. So to use it on the website can be tricky because it's a lot of words and a lot of drawings. What I'm doing when I have been doing websites based on the storyboards, is I extracted several elements from it and made separate drawings from it. MR: Almost like a series of drawings that are connected. Sort of serves the same purpose, but it's not all in a single canvas, in that sense. IL: Yeah. And it tends to look to look better. Yeah. MR: I suppose the beauty of that too is you could take a piece of the story and zoom into detail on that piece of the story, right? If you do it in a series, you could start from the beginning and end up at the end and have detail on each piece, I suppose. IL: Yeah. And what you can use it for—I have done that now with somebody. We do your storyboard, and then I asked her, "And now tell me your story." And she looked at the storyboard and told me the whole thing, and she could just go through it, and then you have a structure for it. It's a picture to find the right words and to find the right structure so you always know where you are in your brand story when you talk about it. That's the basic thing. People tend to get, or I also, tend to get confused if we just talk about it without structure, and it's so clear on the left is the bad stuff on the right is the good stuff. And don't mix it up and don't talk about both in one sentence unless it's under LinkedIn headline. MR: I could see that also being a really helpful, almost like a filtering mechanism where it says, "Okay, I've been offered—" Let's say you're running a company, your own company, or you're doing a thing and someone comes to you and says, Hey, I'd like you to do this thing for me. And you could think about it and say, "Well, where does this fit on my map?" And if it fits in the old stuff, then it's real easy to say, "No, it doesn't fit what I do." If it goes over in the area where I'm heading to, then it's something you should consider taking, right? Or maybe the answer then is to come back to them and say, "Well, you're asking me to do this thing, which is what I used to do, but I found it wasn't effective for whatever reason. How would you feel about doing this new thing, which I'm doing, and let's fit it into there where I found that much more effective." So it could also be an opportunity to, I not only identify but then convert someone or guide someone to a more effective thing that you're doing now. So someone wouldn't even have thought to come to you and ask for that thing. Then it gives you this opportunity to shift them to the new— IL: That's true. That's true. I don't actually do illustrations anymore because it doesn't fit into my own plan. But what I'm doing sometimes is working on the messaging and the illustrations together with my clients. So we get into a Zoom call, and then I draw while we're talking and I do the illustrations. If they're happy with them, how they look like messy and sketchy, then everything is fine. If not, then—but so far they have been happy. MR: So here's a question. You've done it with these on Zoom, so, you know, the assumption is somebody remote or not in the same physical place. Have you done this with someone in person where you're both on the same board? IL: Yes. MR: And then what is that experience like? Do you have them drawing as well and putting information on the same thing? Or do you act as sort of the scribe for them? How does that work? And it must depend on the person, I'm sure. IL: Yeah. I haven't done so many of those, but I have. Now, the latest was on my holiday in Italy. I did one with my host. And I am acting as a scribe because I'm so used to it, although she's also drawing. But it would distract from the flow if I say, "And now you—" Then I would have to tell her where to draw and stuff. I didn't do that. MR: That makes sense. IL: If you're used to drawing digital, it can be tricky to go back to analog, and then you want to move something. MR: No "Undo," yeah. IL: No "Undo," and then I use scissors and scotch tape to put some somewhere else. And that also works. I mean, it's, it's messier. MR: So the last question around this is you do it for individuals. Have you ever done it for a team of people where it's many people giving you feedback? Does that get confusing? Is it possible that's something that you've ever done? IL: I've done it. It's possible. It's best done if everybody has their own—I did it in during the pandemic when everybody was at several places. And then there was no problem, I could hear everybody. It was a nonprofit organization about their website, and they needed to get onto the same page, although they were in different locations, and I was drawing the story. We were doing that together. It works well. What I did last week was talking with a group of people in one place where they all were looking at the big screen, and then it can be problematic because I need to hear what they're saying. So they need to talk into the microphone. It's mostly technical problems, but otherwise, I love working with several people because it makes so much sense to bring them together and have them agree on whatever it is. I did one session with management assistants at a conference celebrating their superpowers. So they were telling me what it is, they're doing, and then I was drawing the situations. That was just a celebratory thing, which was nice. And the last one that I did was about how to solve problems, and they came with ideas and I visualized them. I love working with teams. MR: Cool. That's good. IL: But mostly it's for— MR: Individuals. IL: Individuals right now. MR: Interesting. IL: It might change. MR: So, I always ask this at this point, and that is, is there something exciting that you are getting ready to start working on now that you can talk about? Any new project or maybe a new direction or something? IL: Not a new direction, but I have had these courses all the time, doing just as a, I wouldn't say hobby, but a little side thing, and my one-to-one work was the bulk of my business, which is still is, but now I am designing a—making it—because I have many courses by now, and it was getting too complicated, so now it's only one prize and one membership, and it's such a lovely group, and I decided to make a membership out of it instead of courses. And that's something I'm excited about. We meet every Tuesday and such lovely people. I always look forward to it, and we draw together, we work on our messaging together, and yeah, that's a next thing that I'm working on. MR: Kind of a diversification of, you know, the work that you're doing and doing something more. I know membership happen- IL: I'm teaching my methodology there, the brand storyboarding, and all the visual—there's so many things. Visual frameworks is also very, very useful. Is what you're doing a pyramid, or is it a flywheel, or is it a a linear thing? Like my brand storyboarding? Is a A, B, C thing. MR: Yeah. IL: So I have been analyzing that, and there's something about finding your style which is also interesting. If you only can draw a stickman, how can you use them to convey your message? Like, for example, Tim Urban. You know him? "Wait But Why" who has these ugly drawings and is so popular and he is doing the wildest best job in communicating the stories. He's one of my heroes too. MR: He's kind of leaning into his own, you know, limitations and making them work for him, right? IL: Yes. Yes. MR: I think that's what I love a lot about, when I see different sketch noters, at a certain point you can sort of identify, oh, that's a Diana Soriat. Oh, that's Nadine Rosa. Oh, that's Ben Crothers. Oh, that's, you know—they have a style that you can almost immediately identify just by looking at the work that they do, which is really interesting. IL: Yeah. Yeah. And I was always convinced that I don't have a style. I thought I just don't draw well enough. But these shortcomings are the style— MR: Yes. IL: - in a way. MR: Exactly. Exactly. They make your style you. That's for sure. IL: Yeah. Yeah. MR: So let's do a little shift now. I would love to hear about the tools that you use, and I think actually in many cases, I start with analog and then I go digital because the answer is pretty standard. But I think in your case, I'm going to go the opposite direction because— IL: Oh, really? MR: Yeah. You're so heavily focused on your digital work. I would love to hear the digital first and then talk about analog, like markers. IL: Okay. MR: We'll just do that for fun. IL: Yeah. Okay. My analog favorite tool is Concepts on the iPad. MR: Mh-mm. IL: Yeah. Because it's vector if anybody knows what that is. You can move stuff around, you can scale it, you don't have to worry about resolution, and you have an infinite canvas. And that is just perfect for my work. I find it perfect for simple illustrations. If you work more painterly then Procreate is better, but otherwise, I'm very much in love with Concepts and it's getting better and better. So that's what I love using on the iPad. Otherwise, I'm often using Adobe Illustrator, although I don't love it because I've used it for so many years. I have an old Cintiq that I bought long before the iPad was. A Wacom Cintiq that I can draw on. But I wouldn't buy that anymore. But now that I have it, I'm still using it. MR: Just use it. And for those who don't know, a Cintiq is basically, it's like a tablet screen that you can draw on. It comes with a high-resolution pen with a tip, and I think an eraser. I had one of these a long time ago, it's got huge bulky cables that you plug into your machine. It's not portable at all. It's really meant for illustrators at a desk. Pre-iPad, the Cintiq was amazing. Everybody wanted one. And once the iPad came out, I think that probably killed their business or much of it, unless you had a specific need for a desktop tool like that, which some do. IL: But it still works. I bought it maybe 15 years ago or something like that. MR: Still going. IL: And it's still working. I just had to get an adapter for this old DVI back. MR: Oh, yeah. IL: Yeah, very old. Very old. MR: Interesting. IL: But it still works. MR: Oh, that's good. That's good. That's been a good investment then. Your system is pretty—I think that when you did my work, you did use the Cintiq and Illustrator. You have the way you process stuff. IL: It's not portable. It's plugged in here. Everything is just working, and that's why I'm using it. MR: Yeah. Exactly. Great. Are there any tools— IL: So that was digital. MR: Okay. Got it. So now let's switch over to analog. What do you use in your analog side? IL: When it's just functional drawings, then I use Neuland pens and markers. I like best the Neuland flexible tip one. That is—oh, no, I don't have one here. Light blue and a flexible tip. And it's the fine—yes, exactly. This one. And for shading, I use art markers, Neuland. You have them there? No. MR: Yep. I think so. Somewhere here. Yeah. I think they have the flex--they have almost like a brush nib. IL: They have a brush nip. Yeah. My two favorite ones for that is the light gray. I think it's 102 shade and yellow. These are the two shade. So that's functional graphic facilitation drawings, and I don't use too many colors with it because it has to be fast and— MR: Simplify. Yeah. IL: Yeah. And for fun, I'm using also a black fine liner and ink tins, pencils, and a water brush. MR: So you use some— IL: I love watercolor. MR: Do you have like a watercolor book that you use for that? Or are you doing it out in nature? IL: Yeah, I do it everywhere. MR: Okay, you have like a little— IL: I don't even use—sometimes also A3 bigger ones. MR: Oh, really? Okay. IL: Yeah. And I don't use—I mean, I love watercolor paper, but I don't use it that much because when I then photograph it, then I have the paper structures, yeah, the texture so I'm using smooth paper. MR: Okay. Well, if you know what you're doing, then that works well. IL: Yeah. So I love that. Watercolor is my favorite look for drawing. It's fun. There's this messiness and I like it if it's expressive. MR: Have you ever used— IL: That's—what? MR: That's your tool set. I was wondering, have you ever used Procreate or Paper with their watercolor tools? And how do you feel about those? IL: I'm using Procreate for another thing that I'm doing that is very fun. And that is projecting drawings on houses. MR: Uh-huh. IL: I'm doing that at city festivals and stuff. I got hired to do that. And so, people come by and I draw them, and they get sometimes very big projected onto a facade. I'm using Procreate for that because the presentation mode is working best with that. And I'm using some light pens there. MR: Uh. IL: Yeah. I found them. They are pre-installed called Light Pens and they have wonderful effects, so you don't have to do much. It looks just great. MR: Oh, cool. IL: And then I do portraits of people with some light effects around them. MR: Ah, nice. Well, we'll have to see if you can send us some samples of this so we can put links in the show notes so people could see. IL: Yeah, it's called Illuminations.dk. MR: Ah, okay. Illuminations. IL: Yeah. I sent you the link. MR: Great. Great. Well, we'll definitely have links to everything we can get from Ingrid so you can take a look at her work and see the breadth of the things that she's up to. IL: Yeah. I've had it for many years, so it's there. MR: Some opportunity for inspiration, I think for someone to think, "Oh, I'd never thought about that. Maybe I could do that in my town." IL: Yeah. MR: That'd be fun. IL: Mm-hmm. MR: Well, let's shift to—this is the part where I like to have people talk about tips, and I like to have three tips that you would give someone. And I frame it as imagine someone's listening, they're individual thinking. Obviously, if they've made it this far into the podcast, they're somehow interested in visual thinking, but maybe they feel like they've hit a plateau, they need some inspiration. What would be three tips that you would give that person to encourage them or maybe change their perspective? IL: Three things. Message first. Don't worry about how it looks to start with and just say something with your drawing. If there's something you want to say, then make a little drawing out of it. And it doesn't have to be grand at all. It doesn't have to look great. Just have it say something. And that then works in two directions. When it doesn't quite say what you want, then you maybe develop your drawing, but it can also be that when you see it on paper, then your message maybe evolves from there. So it's not only about drawing, it's also about the storytelling. What is it exactly you want to say? And that's why it's so useful. Yeah. MR: That's a good one. I like that. IL: Otherwise tips. Keep it simple. Keep it simple. Don't try to make art. Keep it simple in every way possible. Use only one color. I use black lines and one color. That always looks good. Or shading, and one color. And that way it doesn't go wrong. And especially if it's light and bright colors, that's a secret. MR: Good contrast with black, I think, right? yeah. IL: Yes. MR: I tend to lean toward Aqua. Aqua is my favorite contrast color. A bright aqua with black. Anyway. IL: I remember I copied that from you back then. MR: Good. Good, good, good. IL: Yeah. But I switched. When I'm only using one color, I always use, nowadays yellow. MR: Yellow, yeah. IL: And if I have two colors, I use gray and red, but that's also just— MR: The gray, I suspect would probably be your shadowing and such, right? Little shadows. IL: Yes. MR: Yeah. What about a third tip? What would be the last one for you? IL: Experiment. Maybe try watercolor and several apps and use it in your every day. I think that's something—and either in work or to communicate that. That's it. Use it to communicate. That is the whole difference between making art. If you're just drawing to make something pretty, you don't have a direction. And if you use it to—for example, make a drawing for somebody and say, "Thank you." And just a little smiley and write a bubble— MR: Just a little something. Yeah. IL: Yes. That gives a different dimension on it. That makes it easier to draw. And also you get nice feedback and nobody will say, "Oh, that looks terrible," because you have a nice message with it. MR: I have a little something here that my friend William, he wrote a book called "The Conquering Creative," and he sent me—it's so bright you can't see it. Yeah. IL: Yeah. No, no, no, no. I see it. Yeah, yeah. MR: It's like a little note. It's a little note with a drawing. Really nice for them. And I've set it up on my table here. I look at it every day just because it's such a nice sentiment. IL: Yeah, exactly. MR: Well, this is really great. It's been so fun to have you talk about your process. Talk about where's the best place to go see your work. Is there one place or a couple places that would be a good place to start? IL: I have a website called lilbranding.com. And from there I link to my new membership site called visualminds.org. where there are all the courses. I do a webinar every month, a free webinar idea. It used to be called Little Branding Cafe, but maybe I go away and call it now Visual Brand Visual Minds Idea Workshop, where people come with their ideas and challenges, and then I draw it. It's like what we did, a mini session, for free. So I do that. MR: Like a challenge for you, right? Yeah. IL: Yeah. And then it's usually very nice because people also come with advice and with their ideas in the chat. So that's a fun thing, and I try to do that every month. On my website, there's a button to sign up for that. MR: So lillbranding would probably be the best place to start, and everything, link from there. Yeah. IL: Mm-hmm. lilbranding.com. MR: That sounds great. **IL:**And right now I'm mostly on LinkedIn. I try to post regularly there. Now with big idea sketch cast, I'm also starting on YouTube, and maybe I will also go back to Instagram at some point, but I didn't have so much time. MR: Yeah. You have to choose your battles, right? You have to pick the places where it makes most sense. IL: Yeah. MR: I would think that your focus on LinkedIn makes sense in the context of the work you do, to me. IL: On business. Yeah. MR: Cool. Well, thanks so much for being on the show, and thanks for all the work you're doing. I'm so thankful for you being in the community and sharing your work and being a teacher. And the kind opportunity you gave me to kind of work through my things and talk with me through the stuff that I was thinking about at the time, it was just so generous. I really love your attitude and your welcoming nature, and you're so calm and relaxed. It's just nice to have another person like you in the community. Thank you for all you do. IL: Well, thank you for inviting me and for doing the session with me. It's an honor because you were one of the first people who—where I learned sketchnoting. I took a workshop a few years ago, and yeah. So thank you for that. MR: You're so welcome. Well, everyone, this is another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast wrapped up. So until the next episode, we'll talk to y'all soon.

In this episode, Dr. Bryan Vartabedian shares how he is creating a child-centered, family-friendly healthcare experience using visuals, to achieve better healthcare outcomes and a positive experience for all involved. Dr. Vartabedian is Chief Pediatrics Officer at Texas Children's Hospital Austin, he is also a full-time faculty member at Baylor College of Medicinea and is professor of the practice at Rice University as cofounder of the Medical Futures Lab. Dr. Vartabedian is the author of Looking Out for Number Two – A Slightly Irreverent Guide to Poo, Gas and Other Things That Come Out of Your Baby (HarperWave, 2017) and Colic Solved – The Essential Guide to Infant Reflux and the Care of Your Screaming, Difficult-to-Soothe Baby (Ballantine/Random House, 2007). Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts’ infinite canvas lets you sketchnote in a defined area while still enjoying infinite space around it — to write a quick note, scribble an idea, or keep pre-drawn visual elements handy for when you need them most. The infinite canvas lets you stretch out and work without worrying if you’ll run out of space. When combined with powerful vector drawing that offers high-resolution output and complete brush and stroke control — you have a tool that’s perfect for sketchnoting. Concepts is a powerful, flexible tool that’s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH “Concepts” in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Dr. Vartabedian Origin Story Dr. Vartabedian's current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Dr. Vartabedian Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Dr. Vartabedian on LinkedIn Dr. Vartabedian on X 33 Charts Newsletter Rob Dimeo’s Scientific Sketchnoting 33 Charts Sketchnotes The Sketchnote Workbook Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. EXPO Low-Odor Markers Heavy grade notebook Wide nib fountain pens Signo Uniball 1.0mm gel pen Tips Be Intentional. Look for a role model. Keep it simple, keep it clean. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike here, and I'm here with my friend Dr. Bryan Vartabedian. Dr. Vartabedian, it's so good to have you on the show. Bryan Vartabedian: It's great to be here. I think we've been planning this for a number of years, and it never really happened, right? MR: Yes. Yeah, well, we're both pretty busy people. BV: Right. MR: You being a physician and leadership certainly, you know, demands your time for very important things. Probably more important than Sketchnote podcasts many times. But, you know, sooner or later we figured we'd catch you, and it's worked out. So I'm really happy to have you here. BV: Great to be here. MR: So, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do. BV: By training. I'm a pediatric gastroenterologist. Spent most of my career as a full-time clinician. Over the past couple of years, I've gotten into medical leadership and I helped Texas Children's here in Houston build a couple of their community hospitals, and they recruited me to open our new Austin flagship hospital in Northwest Austin. So I'm merging into medical leadership and it's been kind of fun, a little different. MR: Cool. And I know that Austin is growing leaps and bounds, so I imagine the demand in Austin for those services has got to be pretty significant, I would imagine. BV: Yeah. MR: That's good. BV: Yeah, big tech explosion going on there. And so, a lot of demand for pediatric services and so we're also offering women's services there too. So high risk kinds of women's services. MR: wow. BV: It's a beautiful hospital up in Cedar Park in Northwest Austin, if anyone listening wants to know. MR: I don't know that I've been in that region, but I've been to some other regions around Austin so I'll have to look on a map when we're all done. So you've been doing that. I'm really curious now, like — so we talked a little bit, I warned you that we're gonna do, they call it the superhero origin story. Like, how did you get to the place where you are. We know where you're now, but how did you get here? And more importantly, for this audience, how did visual thinking using your whiteboard to explain very complex topics to patients is what I remember we talked about in my book 10 years ago. How did you end up integrating that into your practice? 'Cause it doesn't seem like that's something — I mean, you know, the big joke is "Doctor's handwriting are impossible to read," and it sounds like your handwriting is quite legible. So how did you end up in that place? I'd love to hear that story and— BV: Mike, it's a good question because I think I have been using large whiteboards in my exam rooms, I guess now for over 20 years. And it started with these little whiteboards, these little tiny whiteboards that they used to have in exam rooms that would sort of tell the nurses — you've seen these in like hospital rooms? MR: Yeah, yeah. BV: The nurse's name, like who the assistant is and what time the lunch trays are coming in or whatever. And so I used to try to — I found myself sort of sketching pictures on these little tiny boards. And it was sort of unsatisfying 'cause I was so constrained. And maybe it was around Y2K, I had the manager invest in some larger boards and larger dry erase boards, which really expanded my ability to kind of develop a kind of an intentional use of graphics in the exam room with families. And I just sort of fell into it. And the real tipping point, you know, around the time smartphones were kind of new, and I noticed mothers would hold their phones up and take pictures of what I had drawn. And it was kind of at that moment, and the remarks that I got from families about how images, and even just bullet lists and arrows and things were so instrumental in helping them understand what was going on with their child. As you can understand, you know, physiology — you know, anatomy can be tricky to describe. A gallstone in a gallbladder. MR: Yeah. BV: Or a poop back up in the colon. When you make a picture of that, it really, really is a lot easier for someone to understand. Even beyond pictures, you know, even just bullet lists, a bullet list with arrows or two bullet lists with an arrow going between the two. Something as simple as that for a young mother with an eight-week-old child who's exhausted, if you try to explain some of this stuff without any supporting media to help them even remember what the five things in the list are, it's impossible. So I don't even know how people practice medicine without this kind of visual. MR: I think back to like when I've had x-rays done, like you could show me the x-ray and you could explain to me how it works, but it still doesn't make sense to me because I'm not practiced in understanding how to interpret that. So you almost really need, like, what you're talking about. And, you know, I'm looking at the Sketchnote Workbook sample that we have here. You're talking about a gastroparesis likely— BV: Gastroparesis, yeah. MR: — you were sort of drawing this symbol, and we'll put a link to this in the show notes so you can see what I'm talking about. You almost need — so there's like the situation and there's a conceptual component to it where you're explaining the concept of what's happening, why it's happening, and how we're going to address it in this simple way. Because even showing pictures like X-rays are not gonna be helpful to, again, a mother who's tired and has this eight-week-old who's crying because they hurt, you know? BV: Yeah, absolutely. And you know what's so interesting is that we — are you in Wisconsin? MR: Yes. Yeah. You remembered. Yeah. BV: Yeah. So we use the biggest EHR program I think in the world called Epic, Colorado, Wisconsin. MR: Yeah. BV: Big Wisconsin company. And, you know, I think our hospital paid 15 million to implement it. And it has some amazing abilities, but something very, very interesting, and it's funny, has happened, I'll go through a 30-minute consult with a child who's not growing or whatever, and I'll make a note, make my impression docs. Have a thing called the impression, which is what we think is going on. And that's often we refer to when we go back in the notes, what was I thinking back then? But I've had parents, I've gone through the chart. You know, a patient comes back two months later, I look at my note and my note maybe isn't that great? Then the mom pulls out her phone and shows me the sketch note that I did on the board. And within seven seconds I can see like everything that we discussed without even, — you know, more than seven seconds, I can just tell. So it's so interesting that a visual can be a better way to document kind of what I was thinking, what I was doing even more than, you know, a hundred million dollars software package. MR: Yeah. I've had this theory that it's something to do with the mapping or the use of space and the mapping ability of a visual. So you're not only working with words, but you're always putting them in context to each other. So there's more implied and even explicit relationships that you can draw but because it's using the space where typing and text gets crunched into this text, even a list, right. Like it's got its limitations. So it'd be interesting to see, you know, does Epic allow you to upload your pictures? That might be an interesting way to solve that problem, right? Well, while the mother is taking a picture, you are too, right? BV: So it does, it absolutely does. And I've yet to pull the trigger on that. There is a very interesting thing that's come up, which is, what about liability? When I write on a whiteboard, does that become part of subject to what's called legal discovery. Let's say I made a mistake with a diagnosis, could a mama pull out my whiteboard picture and use that in a court of law? And probably, honestly, so it's probably the good if our hospital attorneys are listening, they're like, "You need to get those in the chart immediately." But I think it's always bothered me a little bit that I do these images and they're honestly very powerful, but I think they do probably carry — I haven't gotten in trouble yet, but I do think they can and should be part of the medical record. MR: Yeah. BV: You know, you were talking about, I don't know, giving context maybe to what we're discussing. One of the things that happens when I have these whiteboards and once I launch into a discussion with a family, these visuals become the center of the discussion, and it becomes really powerful with a family that doesn't speak English. If I have a migrant family that speaks Spanish, maybe not super educated, and, you know, I draw a simple picture of a stomach or a colon or a liver with red hash marks to mean inflammation, it's almost universal. And we gather around the board —I've even had patients participate in the sketch noting to sort of add things that are missing. And especially, it's really powerful with kids who are probably pre-teen and older who can really kind of add to it or correct what I've put up in terms of symptoms and that sort of thing. But the point being that it kind of becomes this center, and even when I have a translator, the translators know me and they go to the board and they're pointing. And so, it just all kind of works, you know. MR: There's some collaborative nature to that. I know in the work that I do, when we collaborate on boards together, it's much richer than if it's just me preaching to the other people. I invite people to come up to the board and it becomes much more valuable because then everybody's really adding to it and adding dimension, because you can't know or see everything, right? You can't feel what the patient's feeling. So you have to rely on their ability to describe to you, and maybe they don't even think about it until they start writing, and that might reveal something they couldn't verbalize, right? BV: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the past 10, 15 years we've been seeing this rise of participatory medicine where patients are more empowered with what — you start with the web and all that. It used to be the doctor was a priest and the priesthood and all that sort of thing. Now people are more —- there's more participatory. And there's also, there's a movement called shared decision-making in medicine where patients participate in deciding on the plan in a collaborative way. And when we put four or five options listed one through five on the right side of the board, which is where I always put them, we can negotiate that a little bit. And it just lends to weighing things when you can see them written down. MR: I would imagine too that the idea of a collaborative to whatever degree with the patient would also mean their buy-in to actually, so if there's a part that you do and then there's a part they have to do. Medications, physical therapy, I don't know, variety of things that they are responsible for, that if they feel like they've had a hand in making that choice, they're gonna be more likely to actually fulfill their part of it, which means a better outcome, right? BV: Yep. There's some evidence to support that, but I can just tell you I see that firsthand and yeah, for sure, once they're involved in it, they definitely are more invested for sure. MR: Yeah, I know I am. I can only speak for me, I guess, but that's pretty cool. BV: It's been a fun journey and we've had interest from — the docs of the Mayo Clinic have called me and it's like, "How do you do this?" And I think we even kicked around maybe a decade ago. I thought I should make like a white paper to teach doctors how to do this, and I never did it. But something that's sort of akin to sketch notes for clinicians, you know because I think I do have a methodical way that I do it, a way that I use the geography of the board to optimize the space and, you know, what do I use bullets for? Where do I put the plan? And so on and so forth. MR: Almost like a language. BV: Yeah, but I thought of formalizing it, which I haven't yet, but I probably should. MR: I have some potential inspiration. My friend and colleague, Rob Dimeo is a physicist. He started using it in his practice as a physicist and found it really valuable, even though he had to modify the way he did it. He wrote a paper that basically explains how he uses sketch notes in a scientific setting. It might be a really interesting reference to start from and see how he structured it, and then maybe produce something along the same lines could be interesting. So we'll put that in the show notes too, and I'll make sure you get that. BV: I don't just use visual thinking in the exam room, you know, in the spirit of Austin Kleon, who's sort of a cartoonist here in Austin, Texas, I keep a journal and I do a lot of my thinking and kind of visual thinking, not as beautiful as you do. But when I'm sorting through ideas, I use a lot of the sketch notes elements to sort of help me understand how I'm thinking about things from basic, you know, brainstorming to mind mapping to everything. MR: That's really great to hear that's used privately as well in your thinking. BV: It's maybe that's how I started doing it in the exam room too because this is kind of — and you said this just a moment ago. I don't know what I think until I write it down sometimes. I can't tell all of an idea, but it's like, until I put it into some sort of construct. There's also, you know, different media stimulate me to be creative in different ways. For example, I do a lot of writing and I type I use an app called Ulysses. It's kind of like writing— MR: Yeah, I use that too. BV: — app. But there are times when I'm stuck and if I take to a white sheet of paper with your sketch notes elements or just let myself go free things come out that would never come out on a keyboard. MR: Yeah. I use the same tool and I run into the same challenges when I do workshops. Sometimes I just need to take a notebook and go to the cafe and get coffee and dump on the page, and they're not beautiful, but I get so much information then what I do is I'll take that more mapped visualization, then I'll come back and then I can write again. It sort of opens up the, detail that I got stuck on when I'm trying to type. My typing fingers don't work as effectively as my visualization fingers, I guess. BV: I see. MR: If that makes sense. Yeah. How did you end up — so when I look at the work that you do, it seems like you got quite good handle on visualization. Were you trained in any way? Did you just naturally do this? Did you draw when you were a little kid? Where did these basic skills come from? BV: I did a lot of art when I was very young. So it's interesting you should say that. I never thought about it, but I did. And honestly, with what I do on the whiteboard, and I have other images too, the elements of what I do are pretty simple. MR: Yes. BV: And almost like what you outlined, it's got — and this is the reason why I think anyone can do this. Any doc can do this. And in a minute, I'll get into what some docs do and what they do wrong when they try to do this, but like writing, I think maybe in the book there's a picture of an esophagus and a stomach, and the esophagus is two lines going down. The greater curvature of the stomach is a big curve, and the lesser curvature is a little curve, and anyone can do that. Red hash marks are a inflammation universal sign. And a little round circle is an ulcer. And, you know, so I'm kind of a minimalist in terms of what I do on the whiteboard. I try to use basic elements. I try not to overdo it. I try to write it with the understanding that the mama's gonna take a picture of it, and I want it to be clean enough and legible enough so that when she goes home to dad over dinner, she can point and she can do the teaching. MR: Yeah. BV: One of the mistakes I've seen is some of my colleagues start getting very you know, hyper graphic and hyperkinetic and very, very busy, which can be kind of natural for some people, but the end result can kind of be hampered, I think, on some level. So I try to keep it intentionally on the clean, maybe in the way that you would do a sketch note at a meeting. MR: Right. Doing something clean and simple is actually harder than doing it messy because you don't have to really think, when I say this thing what is it conveying? Is it necessary? Those kind of questions you have to ask. I guess the other thing about leaving it open and clean is if you're doing this collaborative work, I'm looking at the sample here, you've got some stuff drawn in black, and then you've got a a movement shape in green. It looks like it's moving out of the stomach. And then you have Prevacid is one of the choices versus Bentyl. BV: Oh, yeah, yeah. MR: Indicate that Prevacid in that context that 15 milligrams is better, and you use a red marker to sort of circle that. BV: Right. MR: So you've got this language that it's really simple, but you're using this language to annotate. And if you pack that full of stuff, not gonna have any room to really do that annotation and still have it clean and understandable. You would think. BV: Yeah. And I try not to overdo the colors either. I tend to stick to two or three typically because it's the colors aren't that important but it can add an element that's helpful. It's funny, Mike, I sometimes tell my colleagues about this, and they say, "Oh, I do that, and I do it on the butcher paper, on the exam room table." You've seen the doc sketch with the pen on the paper, it's kind of a primitive kind of sketch noting, but my problem with that is it's not intentional. It's not intended to create a product at the end for the family. It tends to be, you know, scratched and scribbly. It's very hard to read. I think it's better than nothing maybe, but again, I think of the whiteboard, or even if you don't have a whiteboard, you can take a large oversized notebook and do that. If you're a doc listening, you can use a large oversize notebook with a Sharpie or a nice one-millimeter gel pen and get a good result. MR: Something that could be photographed. I could imagine some physicians might like to carry that book around with them from room to room. Maybe they don't wanna be leaving it on a board or erasing, that maybe carrying it's better for them. That could be— BV: I carried a whiteboard around with me in the hospital for a while, believe it or not. Yeah, it was sort of a trademark. But it became difficult because you'd forget it half the time, so. MR: Yeah. I know there's some startups that have happened. I don't know where they're at now, but there were these books, they were whiteboard inside, but you would fold it up and had a strap like a Moleskine notebook. You could get them in different sizes, like quite big. So you could literally carry it around, had a little clip for the marker so you could pop it open and do like a whiteboard drawing on the spot, which was kind of a cool idea. BV: You know, I've been tempted to use Procreate or something to sort of do these visuals on a pad, and then share digitally with a family. I just never quite get into that because I like the size and the grandeur of a large 5 ft whiteboard and the — you know what I'm saying? MR: Yeah. I think probably there's something about the whiteboard and the simple tools that makes it more approachable if you do wanna have family involvement. Drawing on your iPad or drawing on your notepad might feel like they're invading, whereas a whiteboard feels more neutral or something. BV: Yep. MR: And it's more common. One of the things I discovered when I started teaching Sketchnoting is I got fancy notebooks and pens and all this stuff, and I found out that actually, it was really intimidating for students to work with these really fancy tools. So now, when I do workshops, I just have them order a ream of paper and some flair pens and we're good. It sort of drops the level of the tool to the point that it almost is forgettable. You leave behind the paper or the pen and like, I'll just get another one. It's so simple. So I imagine that's the same thing. BV: And Kleon jokes — he's a cartoonist, again, I'll bring him up, but he's always joking, people email him and ask him what pen he uses, you know, as if, if they bought the same pen, they'd be just as talented. It drives him crazy because that's not the point, you know. Everyone's got their own favorite gel pen or the whatever. MR: You have to adapt it to your needs, right? That's part of the game. That's really interesting. So we sort of are stumbling into tools. So maybe we should just go there. Before we go there, I'd love to hear, is there something current that you're doing? Obviously, you sound like you've moved to a new location. Are you thinking about how you might use visualization in this new position? Or maybe start sharing these concepts with physicians there something new that you're doing that you might wanna talk about? BV: Yeah. Of course, the first order of business is to get whiteboards in our new clinics in Austin. So I've got that rolling. I have done workshops for my faculty locally here through the years and they love that. And as I suggested, people — they kind of do this on their own, but they've never done it with that intentionality of using it to create a product. So I do wanna pull it to Austin with me. I need to create some collateral material that teach people how to do this on the web kind of like you've done with workshops. And so, I would love to do that, but we're building this $700 million hospital and I gotta hire 200 doctors and— MR: Little time-constrained, Bryan. BV: Yeah, time-constrained. Time constrained. But my reputation precedes me 'cause everyone asks like, "You're gonna have the whiteboards?" And I'm like, "Oh yeah. Oh yeah." MR: Maybe we should cook up some kind of a weekend workshop where we'll record it with you and I'll be your host. BV: That'd be fun. MR: And you could get your whiteboard out and show us your practice and we'll record it, and then you can share it with whoever wants to learn your techniques. That'd be fun. BV: You know what's so interesting, Mike, is that since, you know, one of the great things about the internet, not like the internet's new or something, but there emerged this population of physician artists, and there are — I can, you know, point you to a bunch of illustrators and cartoonists who are, I mean, real professional cartoonists who are physicians who obviously with the emergence of the web, they became discoverable. Right before the web, no one, you know, how do you— MR: How would you know? Yeah. BV: How would you know there's a guide like sketching and so there's some real talent out there and what's amazing, we think of docs as sort of these narrow people, but there's a whole population of docs doing very interesting things with illustration and with graphics and cartoons. And so, it is kind of cool to sort of follow these people and see what they do. MR: And you are part of that community, in your own way, doing it in a different way. BV: Yeah, it is. What I do is very practical. You know, I'm doing it for a purpose and for an endpoint as a — well, I guess they are too, but you know, it's very different. MR: Their purpose is different, right? BV: Yes. MR: It might be more like medical illustration, which I'm aware of what it's explaining through medical illustration, which is a kind of a different, you know, practice, but you do need that skill to understand what something really is. If you misrepresent that, that could be pretty dangerous. Well, you know it sounds like your tools are pretty simple. I'm guessing it's whiteboards, and do you have specific markers that you prefer to use? Is there a certain color, certain brand, any of that kind of thing that you could share? BV: We use EXPO low odor. The odors of some of the whiteboards can be pretty strong, and for kids with reactive airway disease and other airway problems, it can be an issue. So we try to keep use the low odor. In my personal work, I have a thing for fountain pens, and so I use a nice heavy-grade notebook with wide nib pens. And so, I enjoy doing that. They require a little maintenance. Beyond that, I do a one-millimeter Signo Uniball, which is my favorite gel. MR: Nice broad tip. I like the one-millimeters as well. Kind of juicy. I say juicy, I like it juicy, so. BV: Yeah. Kind of slippery and all that sort of thing. MR: Yeah, exactly. BV: And I'll even practice on a notebook. Sometimes I'll be stuck in an exam room trying to figure out how do I express a concept of, you know, gallbladder motility maybe, and I'll just take out a sheet in my notebook and just start scribbling and come up with some real simple representations. And that's how I come up with what I use. MR: That's how you build sort of your library at the visual library that you use, right? BV: Yeah. I use probably 10 or 20 of the same kind of images suited to what's going on with the kid, and, you know, you mix and match them, but yeah. MR: That's a very simple tool set. And, you know, I neglected to ask this. So how do the kids react when they see this? Does that change your relationship with them? Do they feel more like they can enter the discussion when they see this kind of work? BV: Yeah, certainly for the teenagers, they definitely participate sort of on that intellectual level. What's so interesting is with a four-year-old who may not be engaged in the conversation that I'm having with the mama, when I go to the board, they light up and they see the colors. Oftentimes, I'll give them a marker and let them go to the lower part of the board and goof off and make — I've had kids try to copy what I'm doing, so it's kind of fun and cute. But yeah, they do. Kids are very drawn to pictures. And so, one of the funny things I'll do if I have a reluctant three-year-old, it works great with three-year-olds, who doesn't want to be examined, I'll have mom pull up their shirt and I'll say, "That whiteboard so that I can draw a picture of your belly button." So I look at their belly button like I'm studying it, and they'll make sort of a swirly figure on the board, and they just go nuts and they love it. And you get immediate buy-in. 'cause they see the thing and they look at their belly button and they say, "Oh, that's my belly button." MR: That could be a good trick for other visual thinkers who need to get the attention of little kids. BV: Right. So it's kind of fun. I may use it in a lot of different elements, so. MR: So this is a point in the podcast where we typically will do tips. I like to frame it that imagine someone's listening, they're visual thinking, whatever that means to them, and maybe they've hit a plateau or they just need a little inspiration. What would be three things you might encourage someone to do to help them break out of that rut or just to have a little inspiration? BV: Yeah. You know, I think that we talked about docs writing on butcher paper. You know, I might challenge people to sort of take it up a notch. Obviously, putting up a whiteboard as sort of a little bit of a challenge for a lot of people in clinics and it's wall space and that sort of thing. So again, a large pad can do the trick and maybe take that step to try to be more intentional with the educational material you're using. And you gotta kind of just jump in and try. So I would say, you know, be intentional. That maybe be one tip. The second tip might be look for a role model. I mean, you can look at the pictures that were in sketch notes, and I think I've got some online. I need an Instagram page, is what I need. But, you know, you can look up medical sketch notes, some of my blog posts I put on there. I just get a role model and see how people do it and what they do. And that's another thing to kind of get you unstuck. You wanted three, right? MR: If you got 'em three would be great. BV: So yeah, keep it simple. Keep it simple, keep it clean. I think that I'm a minimalist and I think families, again, you want to think about what you're creating for families when they go away and have fun with it. I mean, to me, I've had more fun in medicine doing this than anything else. You know, it's been a little bit of a side gig for me, and it's also great for families and makes it more enjoyable for me. MR: That's fun. And it serves the purpose and it communicates. BV: Yeah. MR: And in the best case scenarios, it integrates the patients with you which means better outcomes, which everybody's driving for, right? BV: Absolutely. Absolutely. Maybe that's the golden ring, is to try to connect whiteboards with disease outcomes, which if I had the right study design and the right person helping me coordinate it, I think we could do it. But so that might be a great project to aspire to. MR: That's the next thing after you get this Austin clinic all set up and rolling. BV: Yeah. And come down and visit. We'll give a tour. MR: Yeah. Maybe I can do a little teaching. I can teach some basics. BV: Yeah. We could do a live podcast from one of the exam rooms. MR: There we go. That sounds good. I will take you up on that. Austin's one of my favorite cities, so wouldn't be hard to convince me to come. Probably in the springtime though. BV: We'll get some barbecue. We'll get some barbecue. MR: Probably in the springtime. BV: Yeah. MR: Well, Bryan, this has been really great to have you on the show. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and sort of the way you approach things. Of course, we're gonna find a variety of things. I've got some things up here I can share in the show notes, but I would love to hear where are the places that you hang out most. Do you have social media that you hang out? It looks like 33 charts.com is your site and your blog. Are there any other places we should go to? BV: So I have a newsletter at 33 charts.substack.com, so it's the 33charts.substack. MR: Great. BV: I write a lot about — not a lot on visual thinking, which I should do, but a lot on technology and medicine and change and humans and how humans use technology. But you can find me there, 33 charts. I occasionally post there. People can reach out to me. You can find my contact, I think on my— MR: On that site. Yeah. On the site or on the substack shoe. Great. Well, thanks for making time. BV: Awesome. It's been great. MR: Yeah. This is a lot of fun. BV: It's great finally meeting you. Yeah. MR: Yeah, same here. And I wish you the best in your next venture, and for everyone listening, it's another episode of the Sketchnote Army podcast in the Can. So, until next time, we'll talk to you soon. BV: Take care.

Hey, It’s Mike Rohde, and I’m here to announce season 14 of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, which is launching on Tuesday, October 31st, 2023. This season we’re featuring 9 amazing guests, including: Dr. Bryan Vartabedian Ingrid Lill Jono Hey Elizabeth Chesney Luke Kelvington Lena Pehrs Rev Andy Gray Gary Kopervas Ashton Rodenheiser …and of course the fan favorite All The Tips episode for Season 14 You are going to love every episode! Special thanks to our sponsor, Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android.
 Watch this space on Tuesday, October 31st for episode 1! SEARCH ”Concepts” in your favorite app store for infinite, flexible sketching. Learn more: Concepts App Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Esther Odoro: Shownotes and transcripts Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off!

In this final episode of The Sketchnote Army Podcast season 13, we’ve gathered all the tips from 9 fantastic visual thinkers to inspire you! Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings — any time you like. You can nudge the curve of a line, swap out one brush for another, or change stroke thickness and color at any stage of your drawing — saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need — large or small. Never worry about fuzzy sketchnotes again. Concepts is a powerful, flexible tool that’s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH “Concepts” in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Katrin Wietek Filippo "Sketchy" Buzzini Eric Bakey Maria Coryell-Martin Julia Knyupa Ty Hatch Mawusi Amoaku Edmund Gröpl Natalie Taylor Outro Links Katrin's Wietek Filippo "Sketchy" Buzzini Eric Bakey Maria Coryell-Martin Julia's Knyupa Ty Hatch Mawusi Amoaku Edmund Gröpl Natalie Taylor Katrin’s Tips Pick a project you are really excited about. Don't compare yourself to others Don't overcomplicate things. Don't overcomplicate sketchnoting. Don't overvalue talent. Filippo’s Tips Barter your services. Ask your colleagues, connect, share, and give. Prepare your title ahead. Use Post-it notes. Eric’s Tips What problem are you trying to solve, who is it for, and what is the value of solving that problem? Where are you right now and where do you want to go? Be useful, resourceful, and know your five-mile famous world. Maria’s Tips Use a timer and set yourself a very small amount of time to do something. Give yourself the opportunity to play with color, what you see, and don't worry about composition. Paying attention to the world and just letting yourself start with notes just to start that attention. Trust the process. Practice not perfection. Julia’s Tips Fake it till you make it. Work-life balance. Just continue learning every day, getting inspiration from everywhere, from your colleagues, traveling, and following people from different industries. Authenticity is the most important value nowadays so allow yourself to be yourself and be very kind o yourself. Ty’s Tips Everybody is creative in their own way, and that's okay. Enjoy what you do. You can like a range of different things, and that's okay. Set boundaries for the things that are really important to you, in your life that are not work-related. Set those boundaries, talk about them, and live your life in a way that reflects your priorities. Mawusi’s Tips Continue feeding your mind. Even if you go digital, keep drawing by hand. Don't overthink it. Just do it. Be open to trying something new. Listen to other sketchnoters. Share your work. Experience with other layouts, find out what works for you. Collaborate with your colleagues. Ask for feedback. Be intentional and tell someone your goal. Don't give up. Be patient. Edmund’s Tips Benefit from self-organized learning groups. Attend a LernOS sketchnoting circle. Zettelkasten with Obsidian is your second brain for sketchnoting. Take useful notes! Natalie’s Tips Invest and improve in what you love. Recognize what is your strength. Focus on your strength as you try and improve your weaknesses. Share your work. Write down your ideas. Get involved with the community. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off!

In this episode, Natalie Taylor shares how she slowly built her sketchnoting skills and is now sharing her work through her channels. Sponsored by Concepts This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android. Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings — any time you like. You can nudge the curve of a line, swap out one brush for another, or change stroke thickness and color at any stage of your drawing — saving hours and hours of rework. Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need — large or small. Never worry about fuzzy sketchnotes again. Concepts is a powerful, flexible tool that’s ideal for sketchnoting. SEARCH “Concepts” in your favorite app store to give it a try. Running Order Intro Welcome Who is Natalie? Origin Story Natalie's current work Sponsor: Concepts Tips Tools Where to find Natalie Outro Links Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Website Instagram Sylvia Duckworth The Sketchbook Handbook by Mike Rohde Doug Neill's YouTube channel Tools Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Brush pens - Crawford & Black Sharpie gel pens Staedtler two-end marker pens Crawford and Black Sketchbook iPad Pro Apple pencil Procreate Evernote Noteshelf Tips Invest and improve in what you love. Recognize what is your strength. Focus on your strength as you try and improve your weaknesses. Share your work. Write down your ideas. Get involved with the community. Credits Producer: Alec Pulianas Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source. Support the Podcast To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off! Episode Transcript Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike and I'm here with my friend, Natalie Taylor. Natalie, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you. Natalie Taylor: Thanks, Mike. It's so good to meet you, and thank you so much for inviting me on to the show. MR: It's good to have you and I love your accent. We mentioned this before we started recording. Your British accent into the north, which I picked up. It's fun to hear. I don't hear it all the time, so I will enjoy that as we have a discussion. Tell us about who you are and what you do. NT: I am Natalie. I'm from the Northeast, as you've mentioned, in a small seaside town. Full-time, professionally wise. I'm a market manager at a brilliant university here in the Northeast, and I'm an avid sketch noter on the side in my spare time. MR: That's great. We'll definitely dive into the sketchnoting details. That's what this is all about for all the crazy fans of sketchnoting who are willing to listen to a podcast or watch a YouTube video and learn. I think that's what it's all about. I'm really curious, so we know what you're doing now. Obviously, you've got some skills in marketing. How did you end up where you're at? Maybe particularly, from a visual thinking perspective, were there things that happened when you were a little girl that directed you, or maybe in your college years or, school years that guided you to where you are now? What would be those key moments if you were to give me an origin story, I like to call it? Like a superhero origin story for Natalie Taylor. NT: I love that. I love the Avengers origin story. That's what it always makes me think of. MR: Yes. NT: Looking back, it's interesting when I've listened to the podcast, I've listened to so many episodes and I notice a lot of people tend to describe that they've always been very artistic and very into doodling and drawing. For me, I used to think that I wasn't very creative, but looking back, I've always been quite creative, but more in the writing sense. I have always doodled, but I wouldn't sit and draw and do these kind of detailed drawings. It would be very basic, like smiley face, love, heart, and flowers. I would say it's quite a recent thing that I've got into sketchnoting. I say recently it's probably 9 or 10 years that I've been into presenting information in that way. Yeah, it's interesting 'cause I didn't have that artistic background if that makes sense. University, I studied media and communications, which at the time, it got given a bad rap a lot of the time as a degree that isn't sometimes as respected as some degrees. But looking back at that, that was very creative and a lot of the tools that I used in that degree are tools that I still use now. Things like Adobe InDesign, Photoshop, even setting up a website, creating a magazine. It was all creative and using graphics in that way. Like you mentioned, my professional background is in marketing and communications, so I've been in that for around 11 years-ish. It's a little long-winded way into how I got into sketchnoting but when I finished university, I wasn't quite sure what to do. It was just based around what jobs I was looking at the time and I thought, oh, PR and marketing obviously sounds quite fun and that's creative. It was creating leaflets and a lot of design work I suppose. That is kind of in the artistic realm. It was for the local fire brigades that was creating a lot of leaflets and newsletters for the local community about fire safety. That's how I got into marketing and having quite a creative role professionally. But it wasn't until my next role, 'cause that was a one-year temporary contract that I learned about sketch noting. I was working at a very, very small startup in the ed tech field. They had this brilliant software, which was the result of academic research all about collaborative learning. It started on this amazing technology. I dunno if you've ever seen the huge tabletops. When they were around, it was around 5,000 pounds, I think one of these tables. MR: I've seen the Microsoft Surface table, the original surface, years and years ago. Something like that. NT: Yeah, exactly. Similar to that. I think it worked on that and the Promethean giant tables. It was for this very specific hardware and then it adapted to be for iPads. But when I say small startup, it was me and the director, they were the directors, but not working full-time and then a computer programmer. I was doing everything marketing and communications and trying to raise the profile of this small startup company. It's part of that getting involved, building up the Twitter following, and finding things that people would find interesting. I don't think I've actually mentioned, but basically, the target audience was teachers and educators. It was when I started going on basically education Twitter that I came across Sylvia Duckworth. MR: Oh, yeah. NT: Who's sketch notes I absolutely love. That was my first experience of sketch notes and I would just look at them and be like, "Wow, these are absolutely brilliant. And they're just conveying the message she wants to converse so well that I thought I'd absolutely love to give this a go." I did find it really, really hard to get to grips with how to actually start. At the time I would just share her sketch notes with our Twitter followers 'cause they would find them really interesting. Then as part of that role, there was also the Bett show in London. This is a very international education technology conference, and we would go along to that. We didn't have our own stand but would be on hardware stalls and demonstrate in how the hardware could be used with our software. MR: Got it. NT: Then there was just snippets of time I had to go and watch some of the keynote speakers so I remember trying to take in—Sylvia had put some advice out on how to do sketch notes, but I had at the time a little iPad mini and I didn't have a stylus. I remember just trying to do sketch notes just with my finger on the iPad Mini which was really hard. MR: Yeah. Frustrating. NT: Yes. MR: I've tried that. I can relate. NT: I bet you, yeah. It's so tricky. Sylvia shared guidance on tools and things. I clicked on the links and it was this stylus that wasn't available in the UK and I just couldn't find an alternative so I tried doing them with my finger. Then I think I just become a little bit disillusioned with it 'cause I just thought mine are never gonna be anything that I could present to anyone or that people would find interesting. As time went on, I just practiced in my own time. Then I went to Japan on holiday, and they're obviously known for stationery and technology so I got a stylist there. I just played around with it on the flight home on Procreate. I'm still, to this day, not sure why I didn't ever think of trying analog and just getting paper and pens. I think maybe I did try, but just with felt tips and biros, and then I just was a bit like, "Oh, these aren't very visually appealing." MR: Just didn't fit, right? NT: Yeah, exactly. Gradually, I just built up and just practiced. With this stylus, I did start doing some—It would take me hours 'cause I would do a lot of tweaks afterwards and start tweaking around. I suggested to my manager, but again, 'cause we were such a small business, I had to have a lot of different hats on, so I couldn't just explore sketch noting, but I said, you know, these are really kind of intriguing teachers. So, occasionally I would start one and then do a lot of it in my own time, but I started doing almost as a marketing technique. Essentially, what the software was, was like card sorting activities. You might have one on a particular moment in history and then students would have to work with them and match them up and group them together. It was all about how it demonstrated their thinking and how they'd come to a conclusion. I would just do things like 17 reasons to create your own card sort or you know, the top 10 things about collaborative learning. I'd develop the confidence to write using the stylus and it looked quite nice, but still the drawing was just not something that I was very competent in. I would sometimes get free icon libraries and just put them in instead of actually drawing them myself. They were really successful actually at getting the message across as to what the software was, and Sylvia's work in sketch note and hers was still something I aspired towards, but I became more confident to share them on our channels. MR: It's interesting that you had, I guess an inspiration, Sylvia, right? Doing this work, so you knew, it's nice when you see that. Even if you feel like I can't quite achieve it, I have a focusing point and I'm gonna go for that. You're trying all these techniques, you're buying an iPad, you're trying to use your finger, you're trying analog and it doesn't fit, and then you find a stylus in Japan. You keep on moving. There was something about you that's pretty dedicated. You were gonna get there somehow. You didn't know how you're gonna get there and you kept on fighting through it even though a lot of people might have given up and it seems like you didn't. Why do you think that was that you didn't give up? That's really fascinating to me. NT: When you've said it like that, I suppose I was quite determined. The main reason is that I just enjoyed it so much. Like I said, I couldn't dedicate much time in the professional day to it, even though there were marketing tools, but I might do the baseline in maybe an hour, and then that weekend I would spend a few hours of my own time doing it purely because I just really enjoyed it. Sylvia's sketch notes, a lot of them were based towards educators, but a lot of them were quite general. Some of them she did were around mental health, which is something else that I'm really passionate about. That mental health sketch notes are probably one of the biggest things I do now since I'm not in that role anymore. The sketch notes that I do have completely changed. That's how I first started learning them. I think the reason why I stuck with it is because I saw how impactful Sylvia's were on me. I remember printing off a couple before and keeping them up. She did one on the iceberg effect, things that you see on the surface versus what's actually going on underneath, and I just found them really inspirational. MR: I'm sort of putting pieces together. On the one hand, you enjoyed it, so I there's one component. I find, like when you have multiple components that you're more likely to stay driven. You had the enjoyment part of it. You had enough success that you thought maybe I could do some portion of it. You talked about you like the writing, but then you would use icons so that is part of it too. But then on top of it, you could see the effectiveness of the sketch notes she did from a marketing perspective. You know what works in marketing, it's obviously impacting you. You're starting to see it probably in other places. Like this is an opportunity and I can see how it could work, but there was still a gap of getting to where you could do them to communicate and that just took time, right? NT: Exactly. Exactly. MR: That's interesting. NT: I think it must have been around two years ago that I came across your book, Sketching Army, and that completely revolutionized the whole thing again. MR: Oh, wow. NT: I just came across this whole community that I didn't know existed. I knew Sylvia had a sketch noting book, but it was specifically for educators. I'd been beavering a way of doing these things in my own time, but without much guidance or training. I think I did find Doug Neill's YouTube channel. MR: He's Great. Yeah, Doug is great. NT: Yeah, absolutely brilliant. I did a lot of his tools. I remember there was simple tips on how to practice so he had, I think I call it the dictionary game. Basically, you get a dictionary, open it to a random page and sketch note a word. MR: That's a good one. NT: Yeah. That really helped just gradually dipping my toes in. It's only been the last couple of years that I've actually shared them on my own channel and done them on things that I'm directly passionate about. MR: Cool. It's been a progression, right? You've been slowly building up your skills and now you're at the point where you are doing your own sketch notes and you're sharing them on your channel, and you've built those skills up through practice. That reminds me to say to people who are new to this, they'll come to me when I do little workshops and say, "How can I do this?" Like, "Well, it's not easy, but it's still fun. You can have success to a certain degree, but to get better at it, you're gonna have to practice. I don't know how to tell you that there's a substitute, there's no magic pill you can take. There's no, can't jump in a time machine. You just have to do it." What I'd identify in your story is this idea of overlapping. I keep coming across this when I can do one thing that overlaps with something else that I like that's more successful. If I can layer in a third thing, the success rate goes up, the more I can integrate several parts of my life or my interests. If you're a gardener, let's say, if you're passionate about gardening, well, planning your garden like as a sketch note might be really fun on multiple levels so you're more likely to do it and really get into it and maybe build a technique that you could then maybe you could actually teach other people how you approach that, right? NT: Yeah. MR: That's pretty cool, and I see that in your story. That's really fun and it's really satisfying for me to hear someone who's dedicated and committed to following the passion and multiple passions to arrive where you are, which is really cool. NT: Thank you. I do absolutely love sketch noting. I think that's the main thing is that I just really enjoy it and I would see some sketch notes and think—when I discovered the community on Instagram and looked at your sketch notes and sketch notes in the book, it was a case of, "Wow, these are absolutely fantastic. I might not be there now, but I can keep practicing the exercises in your book and Doug's channel." I've got another book that's just purely doodling different objects. When I had to self- isolate with COVID over last new year, I think it was, I spent hours just doodling and practicing. MR: Well, that's good. You probably accelerated your skills there. Like taking a bad situation and making it into something worthwhile, right? NT: Yeah. MR: I got COVID, and all I got was better at drawing, or whatever. NT: Yeah. It's a nice positive spin on something not good. MR: Yeah, exactly. You make the best out of what you've got. NT: Yeah. MR: This is really fascinating. I love hearing the origin story, my favorite part of the podcast because I think it's interesting for me to hear it, but I can imagine there's people listening, I don't even know who they are, who feel like, "Oh, you know, I'm a marketing manager, I can't sketch note, but Natalie's a marketing manager and she's sketch notes and that's her story. She really had to work at it, and it took a long time. Well, I could do that." You can relate to people because there's such a variety. We try to find such a variety of people that hopefully it inspires anybody who listens that they can do it. It takes work like anything worthwhile, it's gonna take work. You said you're a writer, like the only way you get better at writing, is to write. There's no substitute, and reading, of course. Reading to get inspired by like, "Wow, look how they turned that phrase or the way they structured that thing. I wanna copy that." NT: Exactly. MR: It's definitely a form of—imitation is really important. Imitating, what other people doing, but then—I think that Natalie or Austin Kleon often talks about this idea that copying is helpful because as much as you try to copy that other person, you're not gonna get an exact copy. Eventually, your personality's gonna come through on it and you're gonna add your own little tweaks and twists and it becomes your own without you really realizing it. There is definitely a benefit to copying people to get better and figure out where you're going. That's very helpful. NT: Yeah. Definitely. MR: For you, Sylvia Duckworth, I guess is probably one of those key figures that you were trying not so much to copy, but to emulate and to follow and produce something on the level of Sylvia that would communicate the way you saw it impacted you, which is really, really fun to hear. NT: Yeah, exactly. I really love her work. MR: I'm really curious about what is some exciting sketchnoting-related project that you're working on. You mentioned mental health sketch notes, is where you're at. Is there one that you're doing now or a series or something maybe that's coming up that you're excited about that you could share with us? NT: Yes. In general, I love doing sketch notes on mental health. I think that came about with if I was having a particular struggle, I would just Google that struggle. It might be overthinking, for example, which is one of my more popular sketch notes, and I'd just put into Google ways to stop overthinking. Rather than just read that article and come away with maybe a point that I was gonna try that week and then forget about, I would start sketch noting that and sketch note podcast and books to actually learn from that. Then the bonus is that then helping other people. I've got a project coming up with a lead in mental health psychology publication that I'm gonna do a collaborative post with, and that's gonna be on four ways on how to be kind to yourself. MR: Oh, wow. NT: It's in the similar realm to the overthinking one that I've done. What's interesting is sometimes, I've noticed my friends who are very supportive and family, they'll come up with ideas and say, "Have you thought about doing this?" One thing that I'm doing at the moment is baby sketch notes. I've got quite a few friends who are having babies at the moment. One of my friends said, "Have you thought about doing a baby sketch note about the day they were born?" I took that idea and thought of different ways to make it a bit more interesting. It's like what song is number one at the time, the horoscope, the Chinese zodiac, and actually, getting those printed and framed for friends and people who'd like them. That's a very recent thing that I've started to do. I've recently done some work with an ADHD podcast who they thought it would be really interesting to sketch note one of their podcast episodes. That's been fascinating as well because I did the sketch note and my style, it is a little bit more wordy than some people's and there can be a lot going on. When she shared it on her channel, there was a lot of really positive feedback of those people saying—I remember one comment that said something like, "I'd absolutely love a whole book like illustrated in this way on ADHD because it's exactly how my brain works." But then there was a few comments that said the complete opposite in that it's just too overwhelming and there's too much to take in, so it's interesting how it works in that way. For some people it resonates and some people it just doesn't work for them in completely opposite extremes. MR: Right. I've got kids that have ADHD, and the two boys that have it, the way they react to it is quite different. They have different experiences. I think within ADHD, you could have someone with ADHD who thinks, "This is amazing, this is the way I think." Then somebody else who's got a slight variation of it would be overwhelming to them. Just people, in general, that can't maybe get into it. I think that's the nature of just humans. NT: Yeah, exactly. MR: If I go to my Amazon page and look at the reviews, there's quite a few good reviews, but there's some bad ones too. I'm a fan of Seth Godin, and he says, "Once you release your book into the world, you just stop looking at the reviews because the book now belongs to the public and you can't really do anything. It belongs to them. Looking at reviews doesn't do you any good." So, I don't. NT: That's really good. Well done on the self-discipline there. 'Cause yeah, I can imagine it's tempted to rake through them and then you've got to try and train your brain to focus on the positive ones, I guess. MR: It was probably harder at the beginning when there was very few 'cause I felt like we had a technical issue with the Kindle version that a lot of people complained about. If you look way back in the—all the one-star reviews are Kindle failures which we had no control over. It just must have been so a technical accident. We eventually sorted it out and got it solved, but in the meantime, there's all these one-star reviews, which you can't really remove. That feeling like you have to answer like what happened over and over again, and there's nothing you can do, but at some point, you just kinda let it go. The book's been around for 10 years, so that's more important than if there's enough good reviews on the book. In some ways, maybe that's the same thing when you do a sketch note, there's just gonna be people that don't relate to it and it doesn't work for them and that's okay. NT: Yeah. That's very true. MR: It's better to focus on the ones who it does resonate with because they will appreciate it and then you can make them the audience that you are thinking about as you're doing your work. Those people will really like it, and if someone else doesn't, there's plenty more on social media to look at. You don't have to look at my thing. NT: Exactly. They're also different on them with sketch noting styles. I find it fascinating and I don't think you necessarily—I mean, I didn't kind of set out with a style in. Especially, probably the last year, I think a particular style, but when I look back at the ones when I started sketch note and maybe seven, eight years ago on my little iPad they're just completely different. I use all wild colors and whereas now they're quite toned back and I'll just use one color, but that's kind of learning as you go. The podcast has been absolutely amazing, hearing about different techniques and tools and tips. That's really, really helped. MR: I just happened to pop up Instagram here and head it up so I could be aware of your stuff. I happen to look at six reasons to visit Maple and Doe, which I assume is a little shop that you like. It's just really straightforward and simple and fun. There's six really simple. I think the thing too that sketchnoting does, just by the nature of how it works, is you typically have everything on one page. You don't have to look through multiple pages. You can just get everything on a page and look through it. I can definitely see, if I scan back through your stuff, as you keep on improving, you keep on trying new things and that's really good to see. It does make sense now that you tell me that your background is in writing and that's a real strong thing for you. Me too, for my book, I wrote the whole manuscript before I drew a single thing. I think in words too. Sometimes I have to remind myself, "Okay, you can draw something, Mike." I can do like lettering and text and still have fun with the layouts and stuff and just little images sprinkled in and that's okay. It's nice that there's that variation. You could be really visual and do lots of drawings and very little text on one side and then on the other side you could be very textual with just drawings as little sprinkles, and anywhere in between there, which it's great that the sketch note community is so varied that everybody can come at it and express it in their way, which is great to see. NT: Exactly. That's really interesting that you said that you've have tended to think more in text form as well, and visuals and illustrations are brilliant. I would never have thought that it come from the other way around, if that makes sense. MR: It surprises people. A lot of times for me to solve a problem, I might write out the problem first. Then it enters into my verbal side, to quote Doug Niell. Then once I understand it verbally, because that's how I was trained as a kid, then I can engage the visual side of me, which I probably did more drawing before I knew how to write and read. Those then kick in and layer on top of it. It's pretty fun. Well, that sounds like a really fun project. I can't wait to see when it comes out. As later on in the show we'll send you to Natalie's social media connection so you can go follow her work and see when those pop up. Let's shift into tools. Now that I see some of your work, I would love to hear, what are your favorite pens? Do you have favorite notebooks? Then, of course, second would be your digital tools, how you use digital tools. NT: I mentioned earlier, I got into sketch noting via the digital side. It was only through the podcast and when I ordered your book that I realized a lot of people start off on analog. I was still doing them digitally even though I knew that, 'cause I couldn't get my head around how—'cause I'd started digitally, I couldn't get my head around how you would know how everything would fit onto one page. I'd start off and then I'd make it a lot smaller and push it to one corner. I was like, "I can't do that on a piece of paper." It was on a whim that I was out trying to find some trainers, I couldn't find any. I went into this shop called The Works that we have in the UK. I think they have it in the U.S., but it's not as much of a big thing in the U.S. I don't think. It's books, stationary. It tends to have things really good discount. I got this little—I know you won't be able to see it if you're just listening, but just like a really small one. Small little sketchbook. MR: That's a square sketchbook with a hard cover and spiral binding, I guess, is the word. NT: Yeah, exactly. It's got slightly thicker than printer paper. I thought I could just start doing some little mini-ones. At the same time, I picked up some brush pens, and I started writing with the brush pens and they were absolutely brilliant. I thought actually I could start doing that. I don't think the sketchbooks got a particular name. The brush pens that I first started using are called Crawford & Black really cheap in The Works here in the UK. Then as I progressed with the paper side, I found this old sketchbook that I'd had—like I said, I've not called myself an artist. I wouldn't sit and drawing a sketchbook, but I kept holding onto this book. I think I was thinking I might use it as a scrapbook. I'd had it for years. That's very similar to the one I've just mentioned, but it's much bigger and it's also square, so it lends itself really well to Instagram post. For the actual pens, just a few months ago, Sharpie gel pens, their 0.7. Yeah. I found they're really good for doing a lot of the actual words on the sketch notes. Then Staedtler, I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that right. Staedtler brush pens. I got them in lots of different colors. I use the thick side of that to do titles. Then I'll use the Sharpie gel pen to do the actual text and little drawings. I've got a bigger pencil case, but then I've got like a tiny really thin one that keeps maybe three or four pens. I'll try and keep that tiny one and then my little sketchbook in my bag wherever I go. I've got it in my bags. MR: Rough and ready in your go-bag, which is cool. NT: Yeah. MR: That sketchbook is the one you have with you, right? NT: Exactly. MR: That's good. You mentioned the Sharpie gel pens. I've been really impressed with those as well. We have them in the States and tried them in the past and really like the ink that they've manufactured is really smooth and dark. Seems to dry pretty quickly. I've been really impressed with the, I think it's labeled the S-gel here. I don't know if that's the same there, but it's Sharpie gel. NT: Yeah, it is. MR: If you're listening and you haven't tried the Sharpie gel pens, give it a try. They of course make alcohol-based permanent markers of all kinds that you can pick up, but they will bleed through most paper unless it's thick. They do have a alcohol scent to them. That's something you consider. The gel would be scentless. I think if I'm right, the gel pens are also water resistant at least or maybe waterproof, I'm not sure. I think once it goes on the page, if it gets wet, it's not gonna wash away like say a regular felt tip marker that's not permanent. I think both those are permanent markers. That's interesting you mentioned the Staedtler brush pens. It's the two-sided, right? So, there's two ends, right? NT: Exactly. Yeah. I forgot to say that. MR: Those are nice pens. I've seen those around. I've not tried them much. I need to go to the Office supply store and load up on some new things. NT: Yeah. That's the thing with this podcast, you're just like, "Oh, I wanna try that and I wanna try that." MR: Spending your money. Spending your money. NT: Exactly. MR: Talk a little bit about your digital. You said you started with digital. You hinted at Procreate. Is that the tool that you still use? Have you found any other tools and then tell us about this Japanese stylus or have you upgraded to an Apple pencil, or what's your digital status? NT: With digital, I don't think I mentioned earlier, but a huge part of the sketch note journey for me and starting to share sketch notes was getting an iPad Pro 'cause I did find it very difficult with this stylus I had, it was a stylus that has a little plastic circle on the end. MR: Oh, I know. I had this one, yeah. I know which one you're talking about. NT: It wasn't very precise. I found it quite difficult. It was the second main COVID lockdown and had a lot of time on my hands. I was sketch noting more, but they just took quite a while and the surface was quite small in the iPad mini. My manager in my previous role nominated our team for this special award thing. We won that so we each got a 300-pound voucher to use on a variety of—you could just spend it on clothes, holidays, et cetera. I thought, "Oh, this might be my excuse to get an iPad Pro because I'd wanted one for so long. MR: Covered a good part of it, right? NT: Exactly. It was COVID and I wasn't going on holiday, I'd managed to save a little bit of money because obviously, we weren't going anywhere. That was a big part of it, but when I chatted with friends and family about, "Oh, shall I get this iPad Pro?" I made a pact with myself. If I was going to do that, then I would have to share some of the sketch notes. I made a little pack with myself to do that. It was when I started sharing the sketch notes that I think I must've started using #sketchnote and I'd click on that, and I think that's when I came across your work, Sketch Army. Obviously, I came across things like the Visual Jam, Sketch Effect, Sketch Academy, all of these things, and I was like, wow. Yeah, it's called still Procreate. Again, I thought if I'm getting the iPad Pro, I'm gonna get the proper pencil. One thing that I do use, because I don't use an Apple phone, I don't have an iPhone, but I love my iPad. I wanted somewhere of things transferring across easy. I use a combination of Evernote and Noteshelf. You can get Noteshelf only of the iPad, I think, but then Evernote you can sync it so that anything you do on Noteshelf syncs. Ofter, 'cause I use sketch notes and I don't necessarily share, but in kind of planning and productivity and so, I'll sometimes plan my day out in sketch note form. I have done that on my iPad. I want it on my phone so I've got it when I'm going around and I can't really drag the iPad around. MR: Then that syncs over. Now it's on your phone wherever you are or on your desktop I suppose, if you've got Evernote there. NT: Yeah, exactly. MR: That's a smart idea. I think there's lots of these integrations that often to get overlooked that could make the connection between, like, I like this tool but I wanna use it this way. There's likely some kind of connection or there's a way to do it, I suppose. That's pretty cool. NT: Yeah, definitely. MR: It'd be interesting to see, and I haven't explored Evernote for a long time, if Evernote's in improved their drawing tools in that you could technically draw on Evernote on the iPad. I suspect there must be an iPad app of Evernote, but I don't know what kind of drawing capabilities it has. Maybe it doesn't have very good ones and it would be more frustrating. Helpful, right? NT: I can't remember why I didn't just use Evernote as the actual tool 'cause I use Noteshelf and it syncs to Evernote. I think it's 'cause NoteShelf was like a one-off fee of maybe 10 pounds and maybe— MR: Yeah, it has a subscription. NT: Whereas Evernote has a subscription, but you can use the free version to sync. MR: Got it. NT: It does have some nice tools. I'm not sure why I haven't really used it more. MR: I know Noteshelf's really powerful. It's a tool. I think that's what I use to present from when I editing presentations. NT: Oh really? MR: Because I can move the pages around, I can present, and then the way I teach sketch noting, is I like to draw right on the presentation. The cool thing is when I'm done then I can just export that to a PDF and send it to the students and it's all bundled up. It's the thing they saw, it matches the recording if they see the recording, and it's a really convenient tool. I find Noteshelf really great. NT: That's brilliant. Yeah, it's really good. MR: I did not know that it synced with Evernote. I'm not an Evernote user, but that's really good information to know in case I run into it Evernote user, and tools are pretty helpful. I think all those note-taking tools, their tools have gotten a lot better. That's really great. NT: Definitely. When I listen to the podcast and people recommend new tools and Concepts as the sponsor, I always wanna try these things, which sometimes I just don't get the time to sit and explore. I think especially 'cause doing it analog is quite new for me. That's an avenue I'm exploring. I think one of the other reasons I started to explore analog is because Procreate had an update and the pens just became too complicated and it just wasn't working. Now I've found the right brush again on Procreate, so I'm doing a mixture. There's a nice feature where you can favorite the brush thickness, which is really, really useful. MR: I've used that too. Very useful. Now we're getting nerdy, but on the Procreate size control, if you press and hold in a certain location, you can lock it and a little mark will appear there and then you can jump from mark to mark. NT: When I come across that, I thought, this is amazing 'cause I'll have one for the headers and one for the sub-headers or even just the little doodles. It's so much easy 'cause before, I think that's why I was making some things massive, something small and I just lost track of what was meant to be what. MR: Then you're using the same brush and you're just changing the size of it. You just touch the size you want and away you go, which is nice. NT: Exactly. MR: Cool. Well, now we're at the point where we talk about tips. The way I frame it is someone's listening, they're a visual thinker of some level, whatever that might mean to them, and they're excited, they like the community, they like doing sketchnoting, but they feel maybe they're stagnating or they're in a plateau or just need a little inspiration. It's wintertime here in the north so maybe they just need a little inspiration like spring is coming, whatever, but what would be three things you would tell that person to encourage them? NT: I'm not sure if I've got four or not. MR: Or you can do more than three if you wish. That's fine. NT: I certainly thought of lots of tips. The first thing I would say in line with, I'm not saying everyone needs an iPad Pro but just investing in what you love. If you love sketch noting and it is investing and that might be in time or courses. That's really helped me is just dedicating a bit of time and sometimes money to get a really good course and it can really elevate your sketch notes to the next level. It'll just get you back into it again. Often the course is a collaborative so you meet different people as well, which is helpful and learn from others. That's one thing I would say. But then equally, as much as it's invest and improve, I wanted to say recognize what your strengths are. For some people, they might be held back because there's the comparison thing, like what we were discussing earlier and you see some sketch notes that are very visual and these amazing illustrations that I love looking at. I've had to reframe that 'cause I've had sometimes, moments of lack of confidence thinking, "Oh, mine are quite wordy. I'm never gonna be a natural illustrator." I've had to think, "Well, my strength might be more in the sense of listening to a podcast and picking out the key points. That's something that I do in my professional role as a market manager is I might have to take it an academic paper and try and present it in a nice way. That's something that I've had to think is, what are my strengths are. I would say to people focus on your strengths as well as try and improve your weaknesses 'cause everyone's sketch notes are different. MR: That's a great tip. I love that one. NT: Thank you. Another tip is to share your work. I know it's not for everyone, but if you are sometimes stuck in a rut, it can help to share your work and break that barrier. 'Cause I kept my sketch note secret for years, the ones that I did on mental health and things. Some of them that I've shared I did maybe four years ago and just didn't post, but that can really help get you work out there and get feedback. Also, if you're sharing them on social media, it helps to connect you with people. MR: I suppose you could even frame that as maybe sharing, doesn't have to be with the world, but maybe it's a small group. If there's some chat or something where you can share that work. That's considered sharing. If it's two tens of your best friends, you're still announcing to your friends and they can give you feedback. NT: Exactly, and that's actually what I did first. I just started sending them—During COVID, I'd send them in WhatsApp group chats and people are like, "Oh wow. How have you not shared these before?" It's kind of like deeping your toes in it first. MR: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You go to the friendly audience first because social media cannot always be friendly, right? NT: No, exactly. That's very true. MR: Interesting. NT: Another one is just to write down your ideas. Sometimes I find if you're out and about and you're out in nature or you're away for the weekend, I think you sometimes get inspiration for sketch notes, but if you don't write them down and I'll keep them in—I've got Google Keeps, I'll just keep a little ideas list and just throw them in there. It means that when I am sat at home with my sketchbook or some time and my iPad Pro, I can actually bring that idea to life rather than thinking, "What was that again?" That's been really helpful. MR: Some kind of reference. Some kind of a spark. That's Good. NT: Exactly. I dunno whether I'm onto fifth tip now, I'm not sure. MR: I only count them later. NT: One is just get involved with the community as well. That's a tip that I would recommend. There's been a few that I've been involved with lately, monthly hangouts and your layouts workshop. I think that's just really helpful, and again, it's learning from people. You might get tips that you've not thought of that might take 10 minutes. I think one of your previous guests, I think it was Reverend Geek, said he had a 30-day challenge where he would just sketch out a word for 30 days, but sometimes he'd get those ideas from other people and communities that you're part of. MR: We have that. If you want an easy one, Sketchnote Army has a Slack channel you can join. NT: Oh, really? MR: Yep. Every day there's someone in one of the channels who posts the prompt and you can be challenged to draw it in. They challenge you to draw it in 30 seconds or something, so it builds your thinking skills. We have that channel. Also, probably the other benefit of that channel is any kind of events that happen. Lai Chee Chui, who's one of the members, she's like a hawk. She finds every of cool event and she publishes it in the events announcements channel. You'll find out about workshops or the Visual Jam we'll post in there so you get a sense of like what's coming, which is great. NT: How brilliant. That sounds great. Yeah. I'd love to join that. Thank you. MR: If you go to sketchnotearmy.com/slack, should take you to the page and you can sign up for free. It's all free. We just— NT: Brilliant. I'm just writing that down. MR: We don't save any of the back channel 'cause we're just doing the free one, but it's more spur of the moment, the interaction between people in the community, which is pretty cool. Anybody that's listening, including Natalie are welcomed to sign up and hang out in there, there's a really cool bunch of people in there. Your public sharing could be in the Slack channel with friendly sketch noters who will give you encouragement, which we aim to have our community be an encouraging community. I think that's a good place to start if you wanted to follow that tip that Natalie just gave. NT: Brilliant. MR: I'll be sure to count up the tips and I'll give them numbers to them in the show notes. Of course, we'll have show notes for all the things we've talked about. We're near the end of the podcast. Can you believe it? Like, suddenly this time has just flown by. NT: It has. MR: I would love for you to share what's the best places to go. Are there certain social media where you hang out? Is there a website we can go to to find out all the work that you're up to? NT: The main place that I share my sketch notes is Instagram and that's @natalierobertat. I also use LinkedIn, but that's Natalie R. Taylor. I did set up an actual LinkedIn page, but I just tend to not post on that end. I don't actually post my schedule notes very much on LinkedIn, but I do use it. I set up a Twitter, but again, I've posted it a few times and not really used it a lot. So, I would say Instagram. MR: Okay. Got it. We'll make sure we put a link to that. I'm on your page now and it looks like you've got a campsite bio page with some specific things that you'd like people to check out first. That's nice that you got an extended list of things for people to dig into. That's really good and you can see her work there. Well, Natalie, this has been so much fun. Thank you for joining us on the show and sharing your experience and encouraging people. I think it's, again, another great episode that will encourage somebody out there who we can't even imagine right now who's listening to this episode and being inspired and trying something out, which is what this is all about. Thank you for making time to be here. NT: Thank you so much for having me. I've absolutely loved it and I love the idea that it could help someone, so thank you for saying that. MR: I think so. I think it definitely will help someone. I'm often surprised, I think I do these podcasts and often you don't really hear much back and that's okay, I don't do it for that reason. But occasionally I'll talk to someone and say, I've listened to every one of your episodes. It's happened like four or five times recently. All the effort that you put into it, you think like, "Is anybody listening to this?" I see people downloading it, but you don't hear anything, and then suddenly four or five people say, I listen to every episode. Like, wow, okay, well I guess we're gonna keep doing that. It's really encouraging and it's definitely gonna be encouraging to someone and many people potentially. That's really great to hear. NT: Thank you. I've absolutely loved listening to the podcast when I discovered it and it was lockdown as well, so I'll go for these long walks and I've listening to maybe two, three a day just thinking, I was like, "Wow, there's eight or nine series of this?" MR: You're like a super fan, Natalie. NT: Yeah, I am. They we're kinda packed into a certain time. I think I'm up to date now. There might be a few I've missed. MR: It's quite a back catalog. Well, thank you so much and I think for everyone who's listening, that's another episode of the "Sketch Note Army Podcast." Until the next episode, we'll see you soon.